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Thread: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

  1. #41

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Hello! After reading this great thread and observing the success of this deck on Magic Online, I decided to take a version of this list to my local Legacy tournament today. In a 53 person tournament, I went 5-1 to make the top 8, but then lost in the top 8. My list was this (copied exactly from one of the mtggoldfish lists):

    4 Griselbrand
    4 Sire of Insanity
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Blazing Archon

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Entomb
    4 Reanimate
    4 Exhume
    4 Animate Dead
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Unmask
    4 Faithless Looting

    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Badlands
    1 Bayou
    2 Swamp

    Sideboard:
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Stronghold Gambit
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    1 Tidespout Tyrant

    I went up against a slew of combo matchups that Reanimator typically feasts on and destroyed almost all of them. Beat Infect, beat Doomsday, lost to MUD, beat Soldier Stompy, beat an Affinity brew, and beat Goblins. Then lost in the top 8 to BUG Delver.

    My thoughts on my list:

    I would not change a single card in the maindeck. I understand the merits of running a fourth Badlands instead of the second basic Swamp, but there was at least one situation today when having the second basic saved me. My Soldier Stompy opponent had a new Thalia out and upon activating my Griselbrand, I needed to draw into my one remaining Swamp in order to have enough mana to Abrupt Decay his Chalice, then chain Rituals into a reanimated Blazing Archon. Luckily I drew into it, but had I not, I would have been one mana short and would have lost on his swing the following turn. Maybe this is just one obscure corner case, but I do like the relief of having a second basic in general with this deck, the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

    Blazing Archon is not always included maindeck, but I liked having him as the emergency option to best keep me alive in a rough spot. Since several decks simply cannot win at all once he hits the table, he gets a maindeck slot (being immediately game-winning is exactly what you want from most of your creatures). A creature that is untargetable or can remove permanents seems more situational in matchups where those are wanted, so I decided to keep those in the sideboard.

    I have several doubts about my sideboard, however.

    - Abrupt Decay was the MVP of the sideboard. It was amazing in every matchup that I brought it in, and it came in almost every time. I would play more than four if allowed.

    - Stronghold Gambit worked well in the matchup (Doomsday) that I brought it in against, but that was the only matchup I used it and I'm not even sure it was really necessary. I do like the idea of including four copies of sideboard cards, to go all-in on one type of sideboarded answer. So maybe a restrictive Show and Tell is the best type of answer (over removal) for enough decks to warrant some number of Stronghold Gambits. I am really on the fence about this card, but will probably try four again simply because it's so fun and gratifying to finally get that card to work. Also, our Thoughtseizes and Unmasks clear the way very effectively and make Gambit safer for us to use than probably any other deck.

    - Faerie Macabre didn't get used once today, but they are probably necessary. I will keep them.

    - Pithing Needle was easily the worst sideboard card today. Even in the matchups like Goblins and BUG Delver where I could have brought them in, I opted not to. I used to play UB Reanimator almost exclusively, and that version of Reanimator seemed more about "finesse" and tip-toeing around an opponent's hate. Pithing Needle seemed more necessary in that version, to stop answers like Maze of Ith and Karakas and make Griselbrand better. But this red version seems more about brute force, and rushing out a Sire or Griselbrand as fast as possible. Just getting the creature out quickly should win the game by itself, and I think the hate should just be about working to that end. Needle seemed a lot worse at accomplishing what Abrupt Decay did better. I will replace them for the next tournament.

    - Inkwell Leviathan and Tidespout Tyrant never seemed necessary for me to side in, but I think every Reanimator should have a creature that functions the way each of them do. They will stay.

    Where I go from here:

    The first thing I want to try out is replacing the two Pithing Needles with two Engineered Explosives. Has anyone tried Explosives in this deck? I think the card could be like Abrupt Decays 5-6, serving as removal yet being a little different. It answers almost every graveyard hate card (sans Leyline) plus it can potentially sweep multiple Deathrites and Delvers in one go. I always play Explosives in 12Post (my primary deck) and I love it. And it seems like it would have even more use with Renimator.

    I might try to squeeze in 3-4 copies of Reverent Silence, but I question whether that much sideboard space is really needed to fight Leyline. For players that run them in the sideboard, do they feel absolutely necessary? Also, is the requirement of having a Forest in play ever a problem? Unlike Abrupt Decay, we need the Bayou in play and can't rely on Lotus Petal (unless we're paying the full four mana). I question whether that much sideboard space is required for a card that seems kind of narrow.

    Also, I like the idea of Chancellor of the Annex strengthening our early game, but I don't know about how much space gets taken up by four copies of the card. I've noticed that most builds that run four Chancellors eschew some number of Sire of Insanity, and I don't like cutting the Sires. I think the full set of Sires plays very well into the speed of this deck (when you can get a big creature first turn, Sire almost always seems like the best choice), plus they increase your black card count to help cast Unmask. Also, hardcasting Sire is very possible with the Petals and Rituals, which is a pretty unique angle of getting a big creature into play. And Chancellor doesn't seem spectacular as a reanimated creature against several opponents.

    In conclusion, I was astounded by the sheer speed, power and consistency of the deck! This thread has been incredibly useful, and I will be happy to contribute to it!

  2. #42

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    I'm glad that you are now contributing! I will respond to some of your doubts and questions.

    I agree on Pithing Needle being a weird kind of card for us to run. I find that the cards I would want to name with Needle are: Karakas, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, followed by artifact hate such as Nihil Spellbomb / Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus. The problem is that Abrupt Decay deals with all of those same things, while dodging counterspells, opposing Abrupt Decays (some players keep them, anticipating things like Needle or being able to Decay an Animate Dead). Also, I rarely want to cut more than 4 cards from the maindeck, because, as you say, the maindeck is very strong. So I rarely bring in more than 4 cards no matter what the sideboard looks like, because getting flooded by answers instead of threats hurts this deck a lot, even with Faithless Looting. For this reason, I prefer Decay OVER Needle with the justification that Karakas rarely does anything against this deck if you are reanimating early enough, and if you are reanimating later, having Needle might not have been enough anyway.

    On a related note, I disagree with your preference of Sire of Insanity over Griselbrand on turn 1. If I'm reading your post right, it sounds like in the blind you would entomb->reanimate Sire over Griselbrand. After playing many many games over lots of different matchups with varying entomb targets, I am always getting Griselbrand. I have gotten Griselbrand over Iona against Elves, over Elesh Norn against Delver (post-board), over Sire against Storm (post-board). Griselbrand is just so broken, especially in this disgusting shell, and there are many more ways to lose with another threat. Examples of justfication of above: Elves sometimes plays Karakas in a Crop Rotation package, Delver could have Vapor Snag or some similar bounce spell, Storm brings in Chain of Vapor. We can usually find a way to make the secondary lock creature, such as Sire or Iona, in the 14 cards we can draw. Usually Griz -> draw -> Sire is a lock, but I have lost to Miracles on the draw with that (Top into Terminus). I've also gotten stonewalled and raced by BUG Delver when they made Tarmogoyfs. I'm certainly open to discussing this further.

    On Reverent Silence: Leyline is rarely run, but my LGS has been terrorized by me and my friend enough with Griselbrand shenanigans that people show up ready to fight us. Someone there plays Punishing Knight - usually in that matchup Decays are necessary out of the board to answer Chalice, Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite, Knight of the Reliquary, etc., but he also has 4 Leylines in his sideboard, so its not a good matchup after boarding. However, sometimes in the easier matchups you get Leyline'd out of the game. I like having a way to answer Leylines in my sideboard. Even if I don't expect it in G2 (bringing in Decays), I swap out my answers for G3. The "forest" clause has been relevant a couple of times when I was a bit land-screwed on the opener, but running the full 8 fetches helps to make sure that isn't really a concern. In the end, I like having an answer to Leyline, but I can totally understand wanting to cut them for more sideboard space.

    Faerie Macabres are necessary, particularly if you play on MTGO because this deck is picking up steam.

    The main benefit of Chancellors *in the sideboard*, after playing a bunch of games/matchups with them, is stealing back the play when you are on the draw. This helps against Deathrites and one-mana artifact hate, because now your hand can be a turn 2 when before it would need to be a turn 1 (or have Decays). Swapping out Chancellors into the deck over some Sires or other Entomb targets for games when you are on the draw seems okay. *Maindeck* Chancellors are more for getting the nut of a turn 1 combo, essentially with Daze backup. Having them in the maindeck costs you some power level consistency in exchange for more power level variance.

    Engineered Explosives are interesting -> I have only thought about this card briefly but I have no opinion yet.

  3. #43

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    On a related note, I disagree with your preference of Sire of Insanity over Griselbrand on turn 1. If I'm reading your post right, it sounds like in the blind you would entomb->reanimate Sire over Griselbrand. After playing many many games over lots of different matchups with varying entomb targets, I am always getting Griselbrand. I have gotten Griselbrand over Iona against Elves, over Elesh Norn against Delver (post-board), over Sire against Storm (post-board). Griselbrand is just so broken, especially in this disgusting shell, and there are many more ways to lose with another threat. Examples of justfication of above: Elves sometimes plays Karakas in a Crop Rotation package, Delver could have Vapor Snag or some similar bounce spell, Storm brings in Chain of Vapor. We can usually find a way to make the secondary lock creature, such as Sire or Iona, in the 14 cards we can draw. Usually Griz -> draw -> Sire is a lock, but I have lost to Miracles on the draw with that (Top into Terminus). I've also gotten stonewalled and raced by BUG Delver when they made Tarmogoyfs. I'm certainly open to discussing this further.
    I see. If I were to have enough pieces for a second reanimation combo after getting my first creature out, or a spare Unmask in hand, then I would certainly get Griselbrand first and go for a second turn one fatty. But there are certainly situations where I would find the Sire discard to be more devastating. Against another combo deck like Storm or Omnitell, a Griselbrand drawing into some discard spells may not be enough to stop an opponent's own explosive kill. If I'm on the play and I know I am facing Miracles, then the opponent will need to first draw a land and then they need to find the Swords or Terminus in the face of a Sire. Against Griselbrand, they would have more cards to work with. If I know my opponent is playing Karakas, then there can be damage racing reasons to pick the nonlegendary creature.

    But I understand that Griselbrand is just so busted and there's never truly a bad time to go get him first. I'm really just making my case for why Sire is another fine turn one fatty. Many opponents are probably somewhat experienced about facing a possible turn one Griselbrand; they might not yet be used to discarding their hand turn one. But having a full playset of two outstanding reanimation targets instead of just the usual one of traditional Reanimator builds is one of the main draws of BR Reanimator.

  4. #44

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Imho it really boils down to your experience playing the deck and the MU you are facing.

    Do not get me wrong. I also came to realize that T1 Griselbrand is more busted than anything else.
    BUT in certain cases, other targets may grant you the T1-GG. Sire is clearly the n1 option there. Iona and Elesh norn (and to some extent Blazing Archon) too.

    We could make a case per fatty and see what is a best T1 Target vs what MU (T1 Elesh vs Goblin/Elf/Merfolk/DnT will most certainly be a hit, although not as critical vs DnT, T1 Archon vs Eldrazi or Delver decks, T1 Iona vs Miracle will most certainly open the door for tons of fun but is not autowin...). But when you do not know what your opponent is playing, the safer, better play is T1 Grisel.

  5. #45

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    The thing is that usually even if you go hellbent to make a turn 1 creature, if you get Griselbrand then you can usually make a Sire turn 1 *as well* and that should lock up the game.

    The problem I'm seeing with Blazing Archon against Delver is that double bolt or block with Insectile Abberation -> bolt kills it. IMO this makes it a less reliable GG target while Griselbrand can draw cards in spots where you need to draw cards but otherwise just be a giant lifelinker.

    I guess having 8 disgusting turn 1 guys is pretty good. I just can't see Sire being amazing on the draw, especially against turn 1 Top. Personally I prefer Griselbrand so much that I'm experimenting with cutting some fatties for Gambles (to get Entomb).

  6. #46

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Lent the deck out to one of my friends last night. First time playing the deck, and he went 3-1 after arriving late, getting a round 1 loss. Decklist is typical Children/Tendrils with my green sideboard, but with 4 Sires over my typical 3 Jin-Gitaxias 1 other fatty. For his tournament:

    R2: Enlightened Tutor Miracles (with maindeck RIP) 2-1
    R3: Storm 1-2
    R4: Pox 2-1
    R5: Mogg Stompy (Faerie Macabre in the sideboard) 2-0 after G1 turn 1 kill and G2 opponent mulls to 4 to find land + Faerie

    It was exciting to see someone else play it for the first time. He was planning on building blue-black Reanimator but he thought the deck was so fun and disgusting that he's going to switch into this deck. I've converted another one :D That makes 2 IRL, who knows how many online...

  7. #47

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    Lent the deck out to one of my friends last night. First time playing the deck, and he went 3-1 after arriving late, getting a round 1 loss. Decklist is typical Children/Tendrils with my green sideboard, but with 4 Sires over my typical 3 Jin-Gitaxias 1 other fatty. For his tournament:

    R2: Enlightened Tutor Miracles (with maindeck RIP) 2-1
    R3: Storm 1-2
    R4: Pox 2-1
    R5: Mogg Stompy (Faerie Macabre in the sideboard) 2-0 after G1 turn 1 kill and G2 opponent mulls to 4 to find land + Faerie

    It was exciting to see someone else play it for the first time. He was planning on building blue-black Reanimator but he thought the deck was so fun and disgusting that he's going to switch into this deck. I've converted another one :D That makes 2 IRL, who knows how many online...
    How did your friend like the Sires? I've been finding myself straddling the fence about them? Sometimes I just feel that dumping my own hand isn't the greatest plan. Also, if anyone here has any tips/tricks for making the Death and Taxes matchup a bit better, I'd love to hear them. I've been doing great against most other archetypes, but I'm currently 1-5 in matches against DnT. Could be I'm playing the MU wrong, but it just feels like a bad pairing.

  8. #48

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    The Children of Korlis / Tendrils of Agony kill makes the Death and Taxes matchup comical. They have no turn 1 hate other than Karakas / Swords / Needle on Griselbrand. I have lost a few matches when the 7 or 14 cards I drew weren't enough to keep going on that turn and then I got tempoed out by Thalia -> Revoker etc. But in general we easily win G1 and then we are on the play one of the two sideboarded games, so it's pretty elementary to kill on turn 1 or 2 in that game. It's a very favorable pairing, especially if you are on Firestorms over discard spells.

    Believe me, I hate the Sires too, but I think that right now they might be better than Jin-Gitaxias. It comes at the cost of giving up Shallow Grave, but it's better to have both players have no hand than having 7 cards you can't cast due to turn 1 Chalice/Thorn out of Eldrazi (or I guess Sphere out of Lands) on the other side. It's only the matchups like that where I miss them. Also, there were two games he played where he cast Sire.

  9. #49

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    I may have to try out the Children/Tendrils combo. I currently run basically the same list as Into_Play posted at the top of this page, but with a Leviathan MD and Archon in the board. My meta has a lot of DnT, Stoneblade, and Miracles, so being resistant to Swords is a huge upside. How often do you end up actually using the Tendrils to win?

  10. #50

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Entomb + Reanimate on Children of Korlis with the fast mana you draw off of Griselbrand. Rinse and repeat, drawing just about your whole deck, casting all the fast mana, then Tendrils opponent.

  11. #51
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    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Hey mates,

    it's the first time I post here and also the first time since the late 90s that I've played the good ol' duals, so be gentle with me! Yesterday I participated in one of the rare Legacy tournaments in the surrounding area and I decided to give BR Reanimator a shot - it was definitely a good choice!

    There were 31 participants and I missed top 8 with a (nevertheless) satisfiable 9th place (3:2). My list was the following:

    4 Griselbrand
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    1 Sire of Insanity
    1 Grave Titan

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Entomb
    4 Reanimate
    4 Faithless Looting
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Cabal Ritual
    4 Exhume
    3 Animate Dead
    3 Collective Brutality
    1 Liliana of the Veil

    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Marsh Flats
    1 Polluted Delta
    3 Badlands
    1 Scrubland
    2 Swamp

    SB:
    4 Stronghold Gambit
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Extirpate (I don't have Surgicals yet)
    1 Pyroclasm (would have been another copy of Wear // Tear, which I lend to a buddy of mine)
    1 Wear // Tear
    1 Silence
    1 Elesh Norn
    1 Iona
    1 Ashen Rider
    1 Keranos

    The matches were:
    UR Delver (1:2)
    BUG Delver (I guess..., actually I haven't seen more than a Bayou in both games hehe) (2:0)
    Dredge (2:0)
    BUG Delver (0:2)
    BUG Delver (again *sigh*) (2:1)

    There wasn't anything special in the course of the matches, aside from the fact that Collective Brutality's performance was amazing! It was never a blank, on the contrary it won me at least two games. I'm certainly not the luminary with this deck, but I highly recommend to give this card a shot. It really felt like a jack of all trades device!

  12. #52

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Glad that you enjoyed Griselbranding, despite facing Delver four rounds out of five - sounds like misery. Could you elaborate on a couple of situations where Collective Brutality was good? I am wondering if Unmask could have done a similar job in such circumstances.

  13. #53
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    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    Glad that you enjoyed Griselbranding, despite facing Delver four rounds out of five - sounds like misery. Could you elaborate on a couple of situations where Collective Brutality was good? I am wondering if Unmask could have done a similar job in such circumstances.
    Collective Brutality was always useful at some point. Against Dredge it ruined combat math completely, because my opponent didn't expect it. He was at 13 life and went all in to kill me on his following turn, when I was at 3 life with 12 power on the board (Griselbrand and Chancellor). Against the Delver decks it allowed me to race my opponent. The removal was pretty good for me in those matches and in another situation the life-swing was important again. But the icing on the cake was the ability to pitch blanks or fatties for free (uncounterable, since it's part of the casting cost). I can't remember casting it just using a single mode. It just felt like a natural inclusion to this deck, since all modes seemed to be pretty relevant in my matches and it's capable of generating an insane amount of value. Unmask is more straight forward and faster, but not as versatile.

    Edit:
    To sum it up: Due to Collective Brutality's versatility it was valuable in almost every stage of the game, while Unmask is more streamlined at the expense of utility.

  14. #54

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Why are you running 1 Liliana? That seems really out of place.

    Edit: just wondering, not trying to be a jerk or anything.
    Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    You're right that the set symbol is a pretty big giveaway though, and it's not like anyone was expecting anything else after the last block. It's like they brought out Neil Pert and Alex Lifeson, then announced a "mysterious special guest" would be joining them. Well of course it's fucking Geddy Lee.

  15. #55
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    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by .Ix View Post
    Why are you running 1 Liliana? That seems really out of place.

    Edit: just wondering, not trying to be a jerk or anything.
    Just as another discard outlet and I wanted to have more disruptive elements. Could easily be another Thoughtseize. No deeper meaning there.

  16. #56

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Hey guys! Finally registered here so this is my first post. DNSolver and I go to the same lgs. One of my friends is interested in the deck and started experimenting with the card anger. Could it be useful as a 1 of to swing with griselbrand on turn 1 and basically be guaranteed to get the storm kill with children/tendrils? I feel like replacing one sire of insanity with it is better than replacing animate dead with shallow grave. My friend also ran zombie infestation over three of the sires to make a bunch of zombies from the griselbrand draw then get anger in the yard then swing for the win t1 (not sure if this is good but it's interesting)

  17. #57

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Let's look at the math behind that plan with a few points.

    1) let's assume optimal conditions, Badlands -> dark rit -> entomb -> exhume Griz. Now we draw 14. Now we need to find a Zombie Infestation and an Entomb in those 14 cards, unless we had it already in our opener. Finding Entomb in 14 cards is hit or miss, but now you want to hit another 3-of or 4-of? Sometimes that plan will simply not work, while Entomb is all that is necessary to find Children, and there are 11 reanimation spells remaining in the deck that would serve to bring back Children. Edit: Also, once you spend another two fast mana to cast the Zombie Infestation, you are now at less than 14 cards. You start with 7, you spend 4 as described above (assuming optimal conditions) to get Griselbrand, then you spend 3 more to get Zombie Infestation into play. That's 7 cards spent out of 21 cards total. So if you mulligan to 6, you can only win this way on turn 1 on the draw. Also, this is assuming your spell to get Griselbrand isn't Reanimate, because then you only have half as many cards to play with.

    2) Cutting Sires or other creatures for Zombie Infestations will decrease the number of turn 1 creatures from Faithless Looting -> Reanimate draws.

    3) Keeping Children / Tendrils and adding Anger is definitely overkill because the kill is ~70% in 14 cards, and that's when you have to kill them that turn. Sometimes you wait a turn and kill them after you untap and attack, guaranteeing a win in 21 cards (+1 from draw).

    As far as Zombie Infestation itself, it is a cool card that could be considered in the sideboard to get around Surgical Extraction. Once it resolves, you should win against Miracles unless they have a fast Mentor start. It probably is also scoop phase for Delver decks on turn 1 or 2, unless they have Goyf. It's certainly interesting, and with the number of Surgical Extractions increasing, we could probably investigate this as an option. I'm not sure about this, though, because even if you keep 7 you are going land, fast mana -> Zombie Infestation with only 4 cards left in hand, so essentially making 2 2/2s on turn 1. That's not a very fast clock. I guess if you are on the draw it's power level increases because you get an extra card? I will investigate it.

  18. #58

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Why does this deck play Tendrils instead of Sickening Dreams? Dreams seems a lot more useful outside the combo turn, and is probably just as lethal with Children. Am I missing something here?
    Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    You're right that the set symbol is a pretty big giveaway though, and it's not like anyone was expecting anything else after the last block. It's like they brought out Neil Pert and Alex Lifeson, then announced a "mysterious special guest" would be joining them. Well of course it's fucking Geddy Lee.

  19. #59

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    Glacial Chasm is the reason to play Tendrils over Sickening Dreams.

  20. #60

    Re: [Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

    @ .Ix
    In some version, both Tendrils and Sickening Dreams are played along side Children of Korlis. All as a 1-off to avoid breaking the backbone of the deck.
    Personaly I always had mitigated thought on Sickening Dreams. But it is an additional discard outlet so this is a pro for the card as a whole.
    I advise you to give it a go and then get back to us with your own feedback. Like for Unmask, I do not like playing it but it is a popular choice amongst players (especially here) so does that mean the card is good or bad? Not necessarily. It fits certain purposes and goals which befits your type of play or not... :)

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