What are the arguments to go with Bayou or Scrubland ?
I've started investing in the deck and have gone with the Scrubland mainly for budget reasons but having less anti hate in the sideboard (Reverent Silence + Abrupt Decay), and a catchall instead (Wear//Tear for Enchantments + Artifacts), seems better to me. Against Deathrite Shaman and Containment Priest we already have Collective Brutality out of the board. Another card I want for my board is Lake Of The Dead, which also seems to be good, though I think it is only really useable to cast Griselbrand if we also draw a Dark Ritual. Thoughts?
After googling for a long while came upon someone saying that before Top was banned and Miracles was a thing, Abrupt Decay and Bayou were favoured because of its uncounterability but now that Top is banned Wear//Tear is better.
Last edited by Troll_ov_Grimness; 08-08-2017 at 11:20 AM.
Hi graveyard fellows
I've been testing the pack more and so here are my most recent conclusions
MD
- 13 lands and 1 mox is more secure than 12 and 2 mox ; I make also big profit from 1 Mountain MD as if Badlands is wasted then it's like a nightmare
- Brutality is awesome as it both gives a way to bin, disrupts counters, beats shaman, priest, Thalia (if you have a third mana source...), makes PV when you've draw 7 consistently, sometimes kills your opponent when the situation is kind of blocked...Rarely a poor start, rarely a poor topdeck, I wouldn't imagine to run less than 3 ; 1 Unmask still good when you draw 14
Definitly better my opinion than the 4 Unmask version
- Sire is the best target against Storm as you can still loose with Iona, and probably also against Show and Tell, but as it is alone pretty bad I run it SB and run Archetype MD instead (considering my meta is rather consistent in Karakas : lots of Lands, DnT, and Jeskai/Stone/Esper Blade)
- Iona deserves to be played veeeeery carefully as you can still loose with it quite a lot even if you put it on board T1, and actually could even be replaced MD as it's bad against DNT, not necessary against Red stompy (Grisel is enough - if you succeed to reanimate it), not so good against most of 2/3 colors decks, and not needed with other monocolor decks which are unfavored (Burn, Elves) but Pox which is the rare guy
Maybe Sigarda ? Or Grave Titan MD ?
SB
- Chewer/wispmare is a pretty bad SB idea as you're never entirely sure of which permanent hate is going (Cage or LotV)
- I consider yet Massacre better than Dread of night as I gets Priest and Prelate also killed ; I won games with it, but it won't make the game on his own so for me a flabby hand with Massacre should be mulligan even on the play
- abundance of Wear/Tear post SB is unfortunately often quite necessary as one Cage T1 (even your opponent runs only one) will beat you for sure
- Keranos is funny as it beats Priest but I am not sure of the efficiency of the cart even against DNT ; in addition it fizzles with Animate dead
- Gambit might be not necessary, and replaced by Defense grid, as Surgical is more problematic than Lands (my opinion)
I am also considering Cabal therapy as a SB option (3 to replace Gambit). Opinions welcome
How strong is Inkwell Leviathan game one?Originally Posted by sidewelljunky
I'm a pretty big fan of the blue splash, and have even gone so far as to write out my reasoning instead of having to copy and paste it into this thread every time.
Lake of the Dead requires you to make your 3rd land drop in order to get extra mana out of it the turn you play it (and therefore avoid Wasteland). Assuming you board in two and go up to 16 lands, that's a very small number to reliably hit your 3rd land drop on turn 3, especially without Brainstorm and Ponder to help you do so. I like it in the Depths reanimation decks that are playing a lot of extra lands as a way to cast Grave Titan on it's own, and if I were playing it in this deck I'd definitely board in multiple Grave Titans, but honestly I don't think you're going to make that third land drop often enough to make it worth it.
I agree completely on Brutality being great, but I think the cut is Thoughtseize, not Unmask. I'd still recommend playing 4 Unmask and also playing Brutality. At Louisville (which was admittedly quite a while ago at this point) I played 4 Unmask 2 Thoughtseize 2 Brutality and was very happy with it.
The blue splash is clever too, but I would probably miss the Sol lands as Show and Tell as you say is not to be the plan against value blue Daze/Pierce/FoW decks (and there's a lot : Grixis control, Czech Pile, BUG, Grixis Delver, UR Delver, Esper Stoneblade, Patriot, Bant, Infect, RUG...) so against the worst MU's you've got a not so good SB. And if they have Cage T1 on the play you're dead.
I probably would put 3 Defense Grid replacing the Blood moons but it's maybe just because I can get Blood moon's utility in BR Rea yet.
Also it seems you are counting on good first hands against DNT as without white hate if you don't reanimate T2 on the play or T1 on the draw you're usually dead (especially post SB).
I agree that Lake of the dead seems good only with Mono black Depths Rea or Tin Fins deck style
I can't see the Pack rat advantages, but Pyro I am thinking about and I am currently like sketching (like even throwing) a very alternative version I put here to your comments.
Lands
Bloodstained Mire 4
Marsh flats 3
Badlands 2
Scrubland 1
Swamp 2
Mountain 1
Multiple plan
Alternative thread, check of your opponent SB plan and discard hate, OR auto-bins creatures, creates tokens to flashback
Probe/ cabal 4 + 4
Pyro 3
Mana
Dark ritual 4
Pétale 4
Discard
Thoughtseize 4
ANd cabal of course
Normal combo engine
Entomb/Rea/Exhume 4 + 4 + 4 / Animate dead 2
Fatties
Grisel 3
Chancelor 4
Grave 1 (feeds cabal)
Tidespout 1 (still better with cabal probe than the normal list)
Elesh Norn 1 (cery good with Pyro)
Otherwise I tried Therapy post SB yesterday in my classical list (replacing Gambit) and I found it not so bad/not so good. I won't keep it alone for any bigger tournament that local magic shops meta so I call for your recommandations as I have 4 SB slots free.
I am considering Defense Grid, Unmask (I play only 1 MD along with 4 Thoughseize and 3 Brutalities), a mix of it, or something else I don't know yet.
True. I've been playing combo decks in legacy for a long time. I sideboard for the cards they're likely to have, not for something they could technically cast. If Death and Taxes shows up with Mindbreak Trap in their board, or some other super oddball card for a deck, I'm willing to be dead to it in exchange for being better against 95% of people.
Blood Moon is in my list to answer Karakas, Maze of Ith, and Deathrite Shaman. I'm not bringing it in just to manascrew people, which is why you'll see it isn't part of the plan to come in against Eldrazi, where it would normally be quite good. It's a specific answer card, not a lockout piece.
I'll admit I haven't played against D&T since I cut the Ashen Rider for Tidespout Tyrant, but when I had Ashen Rider and Grave Titan I never had any trouble with Death and Taxes. Firestorm is also a hell of a card in that matchup, and D&T is the reason I'm playing Firestorm instead of a fourth Collective Brutality.
So I haven't played this deck in awhile, I still have the Burning Wish SB which I think is just too slow.
So is the White splash agreed upon, or is the Green splash for Abrupt Decay still fine?
I have a Bayou but not a Scrubland, so how big of a disadvantage would playing Decay be over Wear//Tear? Plus you get to play Reverent Silence which is nice.
If you're playing causally I wouldn't invest the money if you don't have the rest of the cards. If you want to play competitively I would personally go with the white splash but I know die hard green splash players so it may be up to play preference more than anything.
No splash is agreed upon. Honestly, I doubt one will ever be agreed upon. If what you're currently playing is working, stick with it. If what you're currently playing is not working, try one of the other two splashes.
I know that seems unhelpful but I'm serious. Personally I think the blue splash is the best, but that's because I couldn't make white or green work. Other people have it work for them, so that's great. So much about this depends on your playstyle and mulligan style, so it's hard to say what will work for anyone in particular. A few posts ago I linked a blog article advocating the blue splash. If you read to the end of that article you'll see my proposed methodology for tracking your postboard games and determining if your splash is actually working. Try that for a while and see what you think.
In my recent testing I've grown to dislike chrome mox more and more. I'm running a standard 13 land (splash white) manabase with 4 petals and 4 rituals and one mox, but it never seems to be relevant and is terrible when mulliganning. Have people tried chrome mox-less versions of this deck? And if so, what did you replace it with?
I never actually liked Chrome Mox. It's great *after* reanimating Griselbrand, when you can draw a lot and it gives you another starting mana source to cast rituals and stuff with, but before reanimating him I was never willing to pay two cards for one mana. I just played 14 lands with no mox.
Chrome mox is really only good when going off with G Daddy. It's at it's best when you're able to play aggressively. In matches where super aggressive plays can punish you it will feel horrible to have. I think 1 in the 75 is fine. But you're not wrong to state that it has an awkward place in the deck.
I've started playing the deck with the green splash but moved to white a few weeks ago. Decay is great (but not as amazing as it once was) and i feel like Wear/Tear is the best anti Leyline/Cage/Chalice hate combined in one card (aka 4 slots). I also like the additional Duress and Silence a lot.
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Collective Brutality
1 Unmask
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland
4 Wear/Tear
3 Silence
3 Duress
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
I assume the Silences are for Countermagic Match ups and the Duresses are for Combo Matchups?
You are right. I've only played a few games with the white splash so far so i'm not sure if i need 3 copies of those cards though. Blood moon and Stronghold Gambit are still on my wantlist for further testing too.
I've had success with Blood Moon myself. The link in my signature shows my current list. Kinda hoses lands and any Karakas Strategy. Also hits the greed mana base decks too!
@Darkness: Just wondering your thoughts on Inkwell vs Archetype of Endurance. I assume they both fill the same role and you can only play 1, but which? Inkwell is a better clock and can't get chumped but Endurance is better when you have Griselbrand out.
Also, does Ashen Rider not see play anymore or is it just not needed?
From my experience Archtype works well with both griselbrand and Iona. Against many decks archetype plus Iona is a straight up lock out of the game. I've been happy with it. I haven't tested inkwell nor seen him played since a while ago. No personal experience with him or ashen rider. Ashen might be good if you're meta is full of permanents that's stop you from interacting once you're combo has landed but seems unnecessary with Tidespout Tyrant, which has definitely over performed for me.
I prefer Ashen Rider to Tidespout Tyrant, but if you do that you really also need to be playing Blazing Archon. Tyrant gives you both effects in one maindeckable slot, Archon + Rider requires two slots both of which are in the board.
I'm in the minority on Tyrant: I think he's amazing in UB where you have cantrips and stuff to keep chaining spells together after he resolves. In this deck I've had him in play more than once while hellbent, which is pretty terrible. Still, if you need the slots he's a great way to get a bunch of effects at once.
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