[Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

[Rampart]

I prefer Ashen Rider to Tidespout Tyrant, but if you do that you really also need to be playing Blazing Archon. Tyrant gives you both effects in one maindeckable slot, Archon + Rider requires two slots both of which are in the board.

I'm in the minority on Tyrant: I think he's amazing in UB where you have cantrips and stuff to keep chaining spells together after he resolves. In this deck I've had him in play more than once while hellbent, which is pretty terrible. Still, if you need the slots he's a great way to get a bunch of effects at once.

I think it is a personal preference. To me what took Tyrant over the top for me is the interaction with Animate Dead. Its really nice to get a super durable monster against the decks like death and taxes becasue we all know we don't always win on turn one.

[Jeff]

I think it is a personal preference. To me what took Tyrant over the top for me is the interaction with Animate Dead. Its really nice to get a super durable monster against the decks like death and taxes becasue we all know we don't always win on turn one.

What am I missing that makes his interaction with Animate Dead good?

[Rampart]

What am I missing that makes his interaction with Animate Dead good?

If you have reanimated Tidespout with Animate Dead you can cast entomb or ritual or whatever instant to return Animate Dead back to you hand. Tidespout goes back to the graveyard which allows you to cast the same animate dead again next turn with out needing any additionally pieces or the like. When that comes up it wins games and it makes single point removal unlikely to get your opponent back into he game

[Jeff]

If you have reanimated Tidespout with Animate Dead you can cast entomb or ritual or whatever instant to return Animate Dead back to you hand. Tidespout goes back to the graveyard which allows you to cast the same animate dead again next turn with out needing any additionally pieces or the like. When that comes up it wins games and it makes single point removal unlikely to get your opponent back into he game

OK that's all I was seeing. 8 instants isn't enough to make me include him on the basis of that interaction. To me it's far more likely to have him in play with no cards in hand than to have him in play as a 4/5, wearing an Animate Dead, and have the best thing I can do be to throw away a card to allow them to fog for a turn (maybe two if I don't have lands). It's cute and all, but are you really winning that game?

[Rampart]

OK that's all I was seeing. 8 instants isn't enough to make me include him on the basis of that interaction. To me it's far more likely to have him in play with no cards in hand than to have him in play as a 4/5, wearing an Animate Dead, and have the best thing I can do be to throw away a card to allow them to fog for a turn (maybe two if I don't have lands). It's cute and all, but are you really winning that game?

Sure, I guess, but can't you make the same argument for Rider? Rider is only going to do one thing and maybe two but if Rider can be answered your not going anywhere anyway and your probably not winning that game either. I would rather be able to blank a STP but as I said before its personal preference.

[Jeff]

Sure, I guess, but can't you make the same argument for Rider? Rider is only going to do one thing and maybe two but if Rider can be answered your not going anywhere anyway and your probably not winning that game either. I would rather be able to blank a STP but as I said before its personal preference.

Rider actually answers something permanently. Tidespout bounces it once, then if you can't keep playing spells they just replay it. Very different, especially when you're talking about things like Maze of Ith or Tabernacle or Ensnaring Bridge or Karakas.

How many games would you say you have won by bouncing Tidespout and replaying him in response to a removal spell? That just seems like something that's cute in theory but not particularly useful long term. You have a threat in play that's smaller than Tombstalker and you're giving your opponents turns to find answers. I'd rather build my deck to avoid those situations than to maximize my chance of getting out of them.

[DNSolver]

Tidespout beats Lands single-handedly while Ashen Rider answers one thing.

[Darkness]

Tidespout beats Lands single-handedly while Ashen Rider answers one thing.

Agreed

[Jeff]

Tidespout beats Lands single-handedly while Ashen Rider answers one thing.

Agreed.

And yet, I have lost to lands with a Tidespout in play.

I'm not saying Ashen Rider is better than tidespout in all situations. I'm saying that in *some* situations Tidespout is way better in theory than in reality, and Ashen Rider is a legitimate alternate consideration. I'd never consider playing this without Tidespout if I didn't also have Blood Moons in the board. As you point out, Ashen Rider doesn't do enough against Lands on his own.

Are you guys seriously not ever ending up with Tidespout in play but hellbent? It happened to me constantly when I played him in this deck. Sure he's amazing after Griselbrand is in play, but once Griselbrand is in play lots of cards are amazing.

EDIT: I should add that Tidespout is actually in my current list. I'm not some complete Tidespout hater. The sideboard slots are tight and at the moment I need those effects to take up one slot instead of two. I'm just not convinced he's the perfect card for all situations and I think it's worth actually considering the other options when you're building.

[Darkness]

Agreed.

And yet, I have lost to lands with a Tidespout in play.

I'm not saying Ashen Rider is better than tidespout in all situations. I'm saying that in *some* situations Tidespout is way better in theory than in reality, and Ashen Rider is a legitimate alternate consideration. I'd never consider playing this without Tidespout if I didn't also have Blood Moons in the board. As you point out, Ashen Rider doesn't do enough against Lands on his own.

Are you guys seriously not ever ending up with Tidespout in play but hellbent? It happened to me constantly when I played him in this deck. Sure he's amazing after Griselbrand is in play, but once Griselbrand is in play lots of cards are amazing.

EDIT: I should add that Tidespout is actually in my current list. I'm not some complete Tidespout hater. The sideboard slots are tight and at the moment I need those effects to take up one slot instead of two. I'm just not convinced he's the perfect card for all situations and I think it's worth actually considering the other options when you're building.

Do not try to gender identify Tidespout Tyrannt. XD

[Jeff]

Do not try to gender identify Tidespout Tyrannt. XD

Don't blame me, blame the flavor text writer.

[DNSolver]

Is there another creature you want to play instead of Tyrant? Against Show and Tell and Lands he's your best line to victory period.

I have only ended up with Tidespout in play without spells a few times, the rest of the times I'm using him post-Griselbrand where he is the de facto best reanimation target against all the decks that don't fold to Iona or Griselbrand himself.

[Jeff]

Is there another creature you want to play instead of Tyrant? Against Show and Tell and Lands he's your best line to victory period.

I have only ended up with Tidespout in play without spells a few times, the rest of the times I'm using him post-Griselbrand where he is the de facto best reanimation target against all the decks that don't fold to Iona or Griselbrand himself.

At GP Louisville I played 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Blazing Archon, and 0 Tidespout Tyrant. I beat lands twice, sneak and show twice, and won two reanimator mirrors. In fact I distinctly remember beating Sneak and Show when they went off on turn 1 on the play, put in Omniscience and I put in Ashen Rider. They had no instants, so Omniscience went away. That wouldn't have gone nearly as well with Tidespout.

And I continue to agree that Tyrant is insane post Griselbrand, I'm just honestly not having all that much trouble winning post Griselbrand.

[DNSolver]

Had some time today to play this deck again for the first time in a long while.

List:
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Tidespout
4 Chancellor
12 reanimate
4 entomb
4 looting
8 fetchlands
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
4 Dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 collective brutality

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Reverent Silence
1 Children of Korlis
1 Duress
1 Archetype of Endurance
4 Faerie Macabre

Results from today: 9-1. 4-1 first league, 5-0 second league

Czech Pile / 4c Leovold: 2-0
Elves 1-0
UR Delver: 1-0
BR Reanimator mirror: 1-0
Enchantress: 1-0
Miracles: 1-0
UG Post?: 1-0
Another UG Post????: 1-0
Food Chain: 0-1

Tidespout was an all-star several times. Namely, Post, Enchantress, UR Delver (reanimated it turn 1 of G3 without Griselbrand), and Czech to bounce Leovold. After bouncing Leovold you can draw cards with Griselbrand and then bounce the rest of their shit.

[delfam]

Solver: you mind doing a rough SB guide. Doesn't have to be matchup specific, but just what you take out and what you bring in against certain hate cards, etc.

The 1 Korlis is interesting and having 4 Decay and 4 Silence seems like a lot of hate. Do you not like Blood Moon and Stronghold Gambit? Assumed you'd also want Elesh Norn for tribal decks and then a Grave Titan for Liliana or Diabolic Edict. Not sure how you handle stuff like that.

[DNSolver]

Abrupt Decay usually comes in vs just about anybody that I expect will be packing hate. So all the fair decks and some combo decks. Generally the more unfair the combo the fewer of these I bother with because they are less likely to have Cage or whatever. Decay is the best anti-hate card here because it is uncounterable. All other anti-hate cards will fall into a funnel of countermagic that has otherwise no targets because our deck isn't doing anything with this Cage / RIP on the table.

Reverent Silence is for Leyline only. There are four because the opponent will have four Leylines, and if you're running Leyline you are generally conceding the game without one in your opener. So I generally mulligan aggressively for this if I know FOR SURE they have/need Leyline, and mulligan a little less aggressively for it (likely to keep an otherwise good hand) when I only suspect Leyline.

Faerie Macabre is for the Reanimator mirror only. We don't need grave hate for any other deck. If you think you're losing to Loam + Wasteland, you're not.

Archetype is for fair decks with removal that works against Griselbrand, or for Karakas. Comes in against Lands too in case your Tidespout gets hit by Bog.

Duress is a random fun-of that I stuck in as a 15th sideboard slot four months ago when I picked the deck back up and I think having the 9th discard spell here is ok. Could be Unmask but I am ok with a Duress.

Children is for fair decks that can beat our creatures, or for unfair decks where you might need to have a better Griselbrand than your opponent (Reanimator mirror, Sneak and Show, etc., or otherwise where you think you need to win the turn that you first get Griselbrand out (Storm).

Usually the cuts vary between 1-2 Chrome Mox, 1-2 Dark Ritual, 2-4 Collective Brutality, Iona/Tidespout/1 Chancellor. I never ever cut Faithless Looting. I cut 4 Exhumes in the Reanimator mirror. Brutalities are good vs any Deathrite or Strix deck but otherwise are not too good so can be shaved or cut entirely against decks without creatures. Iona gets cut wherever it doesn't win or severely restrict the opponent's options immediately. Tidespout gets cut whenever Iona or Griselbrand is a lock. Chrome Mox can get cut on the draw since there is less need to go fast - I often bring them back in on the play if I need to be fast in G3.

Edit: to address more specifically the questions above and answer them directly and bluntly:

Elesh Norn is not necessary. "Tribal" decks are Elves and... nothing else. Iona is a lock vs Elves these days as long as you don't get clocked by what is on-board. I have never had it happen where the on-board pressure is significant but not containing a DRS/Scooze that would stop you from reanimating anyway.

Diabolic Edict and Liliana are best beaten by Reanimating your opponent's Deathrite Shaman or Baleful Strix. Grave Titan is good, but not worth a slot.

Stronghold Gambit is fine, but suffers immensely from your opponent knowing about it (Probe, discard, Surgical giving info) or from it simply not being very good in this deck's bad matchups (Delver namely).

Blood Moon is an interesting, expensive, one-card answer to Delver that I have never played. I don't think it is too good. To play it, I would cut Faerie Macabres. In the other matchups where it is ok (Aggro Loam, Lands) you either have a bye or several strong play patterns already.

[Mr Miagi]

What's plan against eldrazi where we know they are having chalices, also thorns but post SB most imporently Leylines. Do we bring in Decays and Revernt silences for these 8-10 hate cards they have for us? I guess it depends heavily on who starts the round becasue when reanimator is on the play it might want to just go for consistent turn 1 instead of proactive game plan, thereby cutting AD and just having silences vs leylines? What's the boarding plan vs that deck on the play and on the draw?

Thanks.

[delfam]

What's plan against eldrazi where we know they are having chalices, also thorns but post SB most imporently Leylines. Do we bring in Decays and Revernt silences for these 8-10 hate cards they have for us? I guess it depends heavily on who starts the round becasue when reanimator is on the play it might want to just go for consistent turn 1 instead of proactive game plan, thereby cutting AD and just having silences vs leylines? What's the boarding plan vs that deck on the play and on the draw?

Thanks.

this is what I was wondering as well. They have Chalice and Leyline, and I doubt you can afford to bring in 8 reactive spells vs them. This is were the Wear/Tear shines I assume, but not sure how you would board in this scenario with the Green splash.

[DNSolver]

Against normal Eldrazi I typically do board in Decays on the draw as well as Leylines - same for Aggro Loam on the draw. Typically Eldrazi players will keep Leyline-less hands on the play if they have a Chalice. They are less likely to do this on the draw, but some do.

So my sideboarding for Eldrazi would be something like +4 Decay, +4 Reverent Silence, -4 Collective Brutality, -1 Iona, -3 something. The somethings can change play/draw and depending on build. I typically make it one-drops like Dark Rituals or Thoughtseizes.

Against bigger Eldrazi decks like the ones that use Voltaic Key + Grim Monolith, I usually keep Thoughtseizes in to supplement a plan of discarding something big from their hand and Reanimating that early. I keep hands that have that as a plan. This is not a great plan vs normal Eldrazi because Reality Smasher or Thought-Knot is not good enough to kill them fast enough most of the time.

[NegatorITA]

Thanks buddy, as I saw your 5-0 today I knew y would be Back.
Interesting choice to cut TS in favor of both hates answer vs Eldrazi, kinda make sense:

Its correct vs delver post side to cut brutality for decays? Or would just keep both?