[Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

[Julian23]

Great post ESG. It's funny you mention Slaughter Games because I also tried to make it work as a crossover-card for the Miracles/Combo matchup. But the mana cost is really prohibitive.

[Lemnear]

What Lemnear said in his post.

It's over 1.5 years when I said that ever since mid/late 2014, beating Miracles with non-blue decks can't just rely on Enchantments/Artifacts. Ever since around that time, they've been auto-sideboarding 2 Wear//Tear. These days I even see that number go up to 3.

Fighting Miracles needs to be done via Planeswalkers, Lands and Instant/Sorciers. Unfortunatley there's little options. Planeswalkers are nice, but they don't dominate games vs them. Krosan Grip is amazing, probably one of the best cards vs them but unfortunately really not very good vs the rest of the meta. That leaves us with Cavern of Souls which is good, but doesn't carry enough weight.

What we need is a way to interact with Terminus. Either by getting a way around it (similar to Ghost Way, but good) or somehow heavily punish them for using Terminus.

Plenty of my previous made point is this threat also root on your testing/streaming with Elves and watching you among others to work in stuff like Choke in their respective creature decks. Wear/Tear is a no-brainer, working ridiculously good with CounterTop and removes all nasty artifacts/enchantments for 1-2 mana which is the same range if manainvestment Miracles uses to kill creatures (Plows/Terminus) or to counter spells (flusterstorm/Countertop) so dopping permanent based hate is not only not quite the blindspot you want it to be, but most of the time even a bad play from a tempo perspective (3cc chocke vs. 1cc Wear/Tear), giving Miracles even more virtual mana to increase their cardquality with SDT & Friends.

I agree on planeswalkers as a possible angle of attack, but have doubt about the Lands in general, as there was a time Miracles actually played Wasteland to fight OmniTells Boseijus and I think, that might hapoen again, if the Legendary Lands gets more attention in the future, but Boseiju hardly is an option for the wide metagame, because of the fact that it only produces colorless mana and comes into play tapped. If WotC really wanted to mess with the Counterspells in Legacy, they probably would need to breed Boseiju with City of Brass: Tap to add one mana of your choice to your manapool and eat 3 damage. Any spell casted with that mana is uncounterable. No more hiding being counterwalls and rewards the active player.

I would step back from punisher-mechanics. Its not that SpiritOfTheLabyrinth was living up to its hype despite all the cantrips in the format. Maybe some more aggressive gaddock teeg variants (and less color restirctive) would be a possible fix

[btm10]

[LIST=1][*]As you probably know, I am a dedicated Lands and have been since 2013. I find the vast majority of matches to be highly interactive.

I was trying to explain why some people think that Boseiju maindeck would be seen as a problem, and didn't say anything about whether or not Lands in general is interactive. Boseiju, however, is pretty clearly there specifically to limit interaction.

[*]Personally I found post MM - 2013 to be the worst era of Legacy. Prison decks like Enchantress, Stax, and Lands were not competetive. Combo seemed to be at an all time low. Even hard control (Landstill) seemed to be declining in favour of Blade decks. Linear Aggro such as Zoo & Merfolk were also growing weaker, even Goblins. Almost everyone was playing Thresh or a Midrange deck like Maverick, Deadguy, UWx Stoneblade, Jund, etc. Even Goblins was leaning towards midrange, being called "Red D&T"; while struggling Zoo decks were looking more and more like Maverick with a red splash. Basically, this was as closest to Modern as Legacy had ever come!

I'm very happy with Legacy now. The variety of viably play-styles far exceeds that of 2011-2013. I know some people loved Maverick Summer; and they SAF didn't care if I was unhappy because my pet prison decks were not tier one! Some people love Legacy right now, and nobody should expect any sympathy if they don't.

First, I made an error and the era you don't like should run from the banning of Mental Misstep to mid 2014, not 2013.

Even then, though, combo was doing fine - I can't find a single month where the DTBF didn't have a combo deck in it, though there's a chance I missed one. Despite that, Enchantress was fine throughout the Maverick/Blade era, largely on the back of kicking the shit out of Maverick and Blade decks; the issue with its performance has always been that it's never been a terribly popular deck regardless of positioning, and the same thing is true of Stax and Lands before the Legend rule change. Calling that format Modern-like is nonsense: Modern never had a viable control deck other than Twin prior to the unbanning of Ancestral Vision, and I doubt that Twin meets your definition because it was hybridized a number of ways, even within Ur, and its combo decks- even Storm- invariably involved creatures.

'Hard' Control (by your definition) has always ebbed and flowed with the quality of threats, regardless of format. Your argument that Miracles should get a pass even if it's oppressive because it can be built as one particular way of building a control deck is fundamentally selfish and is the definition of special pleading.

I was very upset when Lands was forced to dump Factories in favour of Punishing-Grove, and it was all because of DRS. Nobody thinks this is a sign of a bad format. I guess having to main decking a 6-8 card package to fight a card fair decks run is healthy, but main decking a singleton to fight control is a sign of tough times?

I'm sorry you were brutally forced to incorporate a superior game plan. If Factory were that important, I'm sure people could dedicate at least one sideboard slot to it.

[Dice_Box]

Whoops. Accidentally submitted the post before writing it. I'll finish by editing it, but that's what I get for writing this on my phone.

Tapatalk to the rescue?

[btm10]

Tapatalk to the rescue?

I'm not that sophisticated. Just ham-handed-ness.

[Crimhead]

...beating Miracles with non-blue decks can't just rely on Enchantments/Artifacts.

Eldrazi and Aggro Loam have good matches with a big thanks to Chalice. I'm not that well versed in the D&T Miracles match, but I understand it's pretty even? I'm not assuming Vial plays a big role here (I know Goblins s runs Vial and has s good Miracles match, but unfortunately is not very good vs the rest of the field).

If you are talking about Maverick/Jund/Junk midrange decks, IMO these decks have already successfully adapted to the current meta. The problem is that these decks adapted by evolving into the current Aggro-Loam configuration; and most Maverick/Jund/Junk players don't want to play main-decked Chalice. This really is a case of players refusing to adapt. I'd argue that Aggro Loam is Bring held back by stubborn players who still insist on pushing an outdated midrange shell (Jund/Junk/Maverick).

Elves is really just unfortunate. I would think Painter would have a good match, but im not really sure. I've always thought this is a deck that is held back by the price and obscurity of Imperial Recruiter - that's a big investment for a card that only goes on two decks. I guess combo is not that strong right now period, which is probably the worst thing about the current meta (in my own personal opinion).

I'm of the opinion that the meta might be better without Terminus (though I ultimately don't support a ban, because I think the format is beyond sufficiently diverse to warrant any banning at all). Also it's hard to predict what would happen. If Miracles takes a hit and runs Verdict instead, that's great. But if Miracles adapts by going more aggressive (SFM package, Thing In The Ice, or whatever), I think the format might actually become less diverse and not more. In the mean time, Storm, S&T, or Reanimator are probably the best choices for a combo player (or maybe Dredge depending on your meta).

I fully agree, Julian. There are really only a few options to try to deal with Terminus, which is why the format is stuck. Some people enjoy this state, and others would like to move on to somewhere else. These are the options:
1) Play counterspells or Stifle or a bunch of other blue cards that can stop Terminus.
2) Don't play creatures (this pretty much applies to Burn, Enchantress, combo decks, Leylines -- if this is even a real deck -- and any deck running a bunch of planeswalkers).
3) Play 12-Post, which is banking on infinite Emrakul and casting triggers (Primeval Titan is basically an upgraded Explosive Vegetation).
4 Play cards that are creatures temporarily (manlands).
5) Assemble a Gaddock Teeg protected in 2-3 ways (such as strapped with a pro-white Sword and Sylvan Safekeeper keeping watch).
6) Go really deep with the hate cards and run Slaughter Games (naming Terminus) and/or Glooms to turn Terminus back into Wrath of God (4 CMC).

7) Main-decked a Chalice like Aggro Loam or Eldrazi Shops (or Merfolk).

Overall that leaves a lot of decks (and styles) that can hold their own in this meta.
The only thing you can't really play is a creature based that doesn't run blue, doesn't run Chalice, and isn't D&T.

That's a pretty narrow demand. Just as there is no rule saying stack based hard control needs to be viable, there is also no rule saying creature decks without Chalice, blue cards, or Port/Wasteland/Vial need to be playable.

I was trying to explain why some people think that Boseiju maindeck would be seen as a problem, and didn't say anything about whether or not Lands in general is interactive. Boseiju, however, is pretty clearly there specifically to limit interaction.

This is absolutely true - Bosieju is there to prevent unfavourable interactions. On the other hand, I could argue that resolving Loam (and PF) allows me to interact with Miracles in all sorts of ways (Waste/GQ locks Mo!ten Vortex, etc). There are some people who think Counter-Top prevents interaction. Anybody who feels this way had ought to feel that Bosieju promotes interaction.

And I don't think every singly game I play needs to be interactive,cas long as a non-interactive game is the exception not the rule. I used to play lots of other decks before I caught the Lands bug. Mostly Pox and Enchantress, but also High Tide, Affinity, Dredge, Elves, Burn, Affinity, and occasionally Cheeri0s. I have always found the majority of my matches to be interesting and interactive.

First, I made an error and the era you don't like should run from the banning of Mental Misstep to mid 2014, not 2013.

Even then, though, combo was doing fine - I can't find a single month where the DTBF didn't have a combo deck in it.

I'm not saying combo didn't exist, only that it seemed to have a pretty small meta share. And I'm not saying it was like Modern - if it were I wouldn't have played! I'm saying Legacy is even less like Modern in every other era.

Your argument that Miracles should get a pass even if it's oppressive because it can be built as one particular way of building a control deck is fundamentally selfish and is the definition of special pleading.

That's my argument. I've said many times that if Miracles is truely oppressive something's needs a ban (unless a new card or unban is projected to balance the format). On the other hand, if Miracles is borderline ban-worthy based only on its meta share, this is argument presented as a sort of tie-breaker.

I am Constant being misrepresented over this - please stop! What I am saying is that the existence of Miracles is upholding diversity of play-styles by keeping hard control relevant, and that this should be weighed against any argument that it stifling diversity by hogging too big a meta share. If you in the "Miracles is objectively oppressive camp", my argument hold no water.

However it is not established that Miracles is in fact objectively oppressive! This assumption (for which there is no clear consensus) is the flaw in your argument. DTB section looks pretty diverse to me.

Mostly my appeal to preserving hard control is a response to the argument that Miracles is holding down other play-styles. In my view, that is special pleading!

I'm sorry you were brutally forced to incorporate a superior game plan. If Factory were that important, I'm sure people could dedicate at least one sideboard slot to it.

@Crimhead - the Grove/P-Fire package grants huge win % vs the field. You could ban DRS today, and it would still be in lands.

This is true, but at the time it was a reaction to DRS, and that's a fact. Maybe in a couple years Bosieju will be a better card against more of the meta; that won't change the fact that it began as anti-miracles tech.

There is no need to run Factory in the side because it has the same role as PF. The difference is that if we are only concerned with being attacked, Factory is arguable better. When creatures have other abilities, that's when PF is needed

DRS is in many cases our worst issue G1, and needs to be dealt with quickly. Other creatures don't mess us up so much, so we could afford to just use Maze and Factory; or if we need to remove them, we could afford wait for EE. DRS forced the deck to adapt, and this is not a bad thing.

Maindecking Boseju is beyond what one should reasonably have to do.

AFAIK exactly one Lands deck has placed in a big event with a Boseiju main. I don't see why it's being blown up so much. Incidentally Lands is a tool-box deck with open "flex" slots. This is a deck that can run 61 cards! I think cramming a Boseiju in the main deck (thus opening an extra SB slot) has a much lower opportunity cost than non-Lands players realise.

[btm10]

There are some people who think Counter-Top prevents interaction. Anybody who feels this way had ought to feel that Bosieju promotes interaction

This just isn't true. Using Boseiju to get around Counterbalance simply substitutes one way of not interacting with another, and the best way to interact with Boseiju from the CounterTop player's perspective is to destroy it and use Counterbalance to stop you from Loaming it back.

That's my argument. I've said many times that if Miracles is truely oppressive something's needs a ban (unless a new card or unban is projected to balance the format). On the other hand, if Miracles is borderline ban-worthy based only on its meta share, this is argument presented as a sort of tie-breaker.

I am Constant being misrepresented over this - please stop! What I am saying is that the existence of Miracles is upholding diversity of play-styles by keeping hard control relevant, and that this should be weighed against any argument that it stifling diversity by hogging too big a meta share. If you in the "Miracles is objectively oppressive camp", this argument hold no water. However it is not established that Miracles is in fact objectively oppressive. DTB section looks pretty diverse to me!

Mostly my appeal to preserving hard control is a response to the argument that Miracles is holding down other play-styles. In my view, that is special pleading!

I think you're arguing this using a distinction between 'hard' control and other sorts of control that exist only in your mind. (Mentorless) Miracles does indeed have a hard time actually killing someone, but that's a bug from a competitive standpoint, not a feature. Blade control decks were highly reactive and stack-focused when they were relevant, and limiting Stoneforge Mystic to being a sort of one-card combo with Batterskull largely misses the role it typically served for a control deck when Blade was the premier way to play control. I think that Counterbalance is the primary offender here because, again, it makes for highly non-interactive games and forces anyone making the mistake of not playing Miracles to maindeck answers specifically to it.

As for why people continue to play non-Miracles decks, I'll let Patrick Chapin speculate.

[Chatto]

As for why people continue to play non-Miracles decks, I'll let Patrick Chapin speculate.

We all should turn to the Dark Side? Aka prove WotC how busted Miracles is?

[ESG]

7) Main-decked a Chalice like Aggro Loam or Eldrazi Shops (or Merfolk).

My post was outlining ways to stop or evade Terminus specifically. Chalice doesn't stop Terminus.

I agree that Chalice is good against Miracles and is usually part of the puzzle to beating Miracles. The other ingredients you need is a steady stream of uncounterable pressure (Marit Lage every turn, or 25(+) creatures forced through with quad Cavern of Souls) or relevant lock pieces. You need to be ahead of Miracles on the mana curve, so you need an element of acceleration, such as Sol lands, Mox Diamond, or Dark Ritual. This is why Eldrazi is good against Miracles and why any playable creature deck will require Cavern of Souls. The playability of creature decks is largely held together by tribe: Eldrazi and Humans. Merfolk and Goblins are reasonable against Miracles but struggle against many other decks. Elves is also playing Cavern of Souls now out of necessity, but the card is very awkward in the deck due to not being a fetchland for Deathrite to eat, or a Forest for Quirion Ranger to untap, or able to make G or B for Abrupt Decay and any other non-Elf sideboard cards the deck needs to play. It's basically a bad card in the deck, but the deck needs to run it to not lose to Counterbalance.

[Crimhead]

My post was outlining ways to stop or evade Terminus specifically. Chalice doesn't stop Terminus.

It stops cantrips and SDT.

Elves is also playing Cavern of Souls now out of necessity, but the card is very awkward in the deck due to not being a fetchland for Deathrite to eat, or a Forest for Quirion Ranger to untap, or able to make G or B for Abrupt Decay and any other non-Elf sideboard cards the deck needs to play. It's basically a bad card in the deck, but the deck needs to run it to not lose to Counterbalance.

I think Miracles has been around for a long time, and the relatively recent move to Cavern is motivated by Counter-Top in conjunction with the more recent rise of Chalice decks (Eldrazi Shops) in the meta.

And Cavern is a fantastic card!

[btm10]

We all should turn to the Dark Side? Aka prove WotC how busted Miracles is?

That's essentially what I've done. The deck is busted, and the only reason I (and I suspect others) who can build it haven't been playing it is that it's not very enjoyable; and I say this as someone who loves do-nothing control decks.

[Crimhead]

This just isn't true. Using Boseiju to get around Counterbalance simply substitutes one way of not interacting with another, and the best way to interact with Boseiju from the CounterTop player's perspective is to destroy it and use Counterbalance to stop you from Loaming it back.

Miracles can't really touch Boseiju. Instead they have to play around Ports, Wastelands , and GQ, as well as PF, because Loam can now resolve. Even if I'm making Tokens the Miracles player has to keep their answers coming as well as look for something to race against me.

I think you're arguing this using a distinction between 'hard' control and other sorts of control that exist only in your mind. (Mentorless) Miracles does indeed have a hard time actually killing someone, but that's a bug from a competitive standpoint, not a feature.

It's a "competitive bug" the deck accepts in exchange for a stronger defense focused game and improved late-game inevitably. That's what hard control is. Blade decks control the board in part with cards that can easily be used on the attack should the need/opportunity arise. You might think that is not a relevant distinction, but I'm not the only person who would disagree.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Counterbalance ban would kill the only blue based control deck we have in the format, ban Terminus instead because Toxic Deluge, Bonfire of the Damned, and Supreme Verdict can all be decent replacements. The more deck options available to choose from the better. By banning CB you are completely eliminating a deck type while adding none in to the format, but banning Terminus will keep this deck, which many have invested much time in to learning, in the format.

[Lemnear]

Counterbalance ban would kill the only blue based control deck we have in the format, ban Terminus instead because Toxic Deluge, Bonfire of the Damned, and Supreme Verdict can all be decent replacements. The more deck options available to choose from the better. By banning CB you are completely eliminating a deck type while adding none in to the format, but banning Terminus will keep this deck, which many have invested much time in to learning, in the format.

This isn't the B&R thread to post ridiculous bullshit like this

[btm10]

Miracles can't really touch Boseiju. Instead they have to play around Ports, Wastelands , and GQ, as well as PF, because Loam can now resolve. Even if I'm making Tokens the Miracles player has to keep their answers coming as well as look for something to race against me.

A lot of Miracles players have switched their nonbasic land hate to Ruination or Fromthe Ashes, and I assure you that if more and more people show up with Boseijus, more and more Miracles players will resort to actual Land destruction.

It's a "competitive bug" the deck accepts in exchange for a stronger defense focused game and improved late-game inevitably. That's what hard control is. Blade decks control the board in part with cards that can easily be used on the attack should the need/opportunity arise. You might think that is not a relevant distinction, but I'm not the only person who would disagree.

How controlling a deck is built to be is certianly variable, but Jace + Entreat offers about as much inevitabilty as Jace + Batterskull, and whether you support those high-inevitability win conditions with Stoneforge Mystic or Counterbalance+Top (or both) should really only be informed by metagame considerations. When discussing whether one particular way of building UWx control has become oppressive, how much it decides to turtle up and how poorly it becomes an aggressive deck aren't legitimate axes on which to evaluate diversity, overall format health, or B/R decisions.

[Dice_Box]

This isn't the B&R thread to post ridiculous bullshit like this

I petty much can't tell the difference right now.

[Stevestamopz]

A lot of Miracles players have switched their nonbasic land hate to Ruination or Fromthe Ashes, and I assure you that if more and more people show up with Boseijus, more and more Miracles players will resort to actual Land destruction.

2 Wastelands in the main to turn off Boseju from the Omniderp decks.

[Chatto]

That's essentially what I've done. The deck is busted, and the only reason I (and I suspect others) who can build it haven't been playing it is that it's not very enjoyable; and I say this as someone who loves do-nothing control decks.

It could be the only way, which is probably sad. I for one can't build Miracles, and even if I could I would not build it (for the same reason you give). In this remark lies maybe the strenght and weakness of Legacy: in this format most people play what they have or what they like.

Counterbalance ban would kill the only blue based control deck we have in the format, ban Terminus instead because Toxic Deluge, Bonfire of the Damned, and Supreme Verdict can all be decent replacements. The more deck options available to choose from the better. By banning CB you are completely eliminating a deck type while adding none in to the format, but banning Terminus will keep this deck, which many have invested much time in to learning, in the format.

Ehm, this is simply not true. There will always be a Blue based control deck, only not that dominant. Besides, who cares if Miracles would lose CB? I wouldn't shed a tear over it.

Honestly, this thread is not at all dedicated to the subject 'how to kill Miracles'. Instead, we all are going in circles, bitching and whining about how busted Miracles is. In my opinion only a ban can kill the deck, but that should be a subject in the B/R-thread.

[Lemnear]

I petty much can't tell the difference right now.

I all seriousness, if stuff like "I learned to play with a card/deck, so it should never be banned for me to not have time wasted" are considered anything but trolling, this thread could be on mtgSalvation as well. I am totally done playing nice in the face of all the bullshitting going on on the page which derails every discussion/topic/thread. I thought this thread was about Philips Article /rant

[Dice_Box]

Lem, just learn when to walk away. Trust me. Life is much more pleasant once you do.

I would lock this thread, but because it's started by another mod I will leave that choice to him. But at this point I don't see how this thread has been useful past the opening posts posting about the article itself.

Edit:
Phillipp did decide to close the thread.