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Thread: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

  1. #41

    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by HSCK View Post
    Your entire defense of Miracles is that there has to be a deck that has few creatures.
    First, that would be a piss poor defense, as Storm and Lands play zero creatures.
    Second, I'm not actually defending Miracles! Not in this discussion.

    I'm critiquing the absurd assertion that it cause all other decks to lose identity or presence. I've said nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miagi View Post
    Not really what I said and meant.
    You basically said that people are jamming subpar decks at monthly events and sometimes tricking themselves into thinking those decks are actually good.

    This has always been true and will always be true. There will always be tier-two decks, and there will always be scrubs at local weekly and monthly events. That might not be what you meant, but it's certainly what you said!
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  2. #42
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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    c) Creatures are put to the bottom. Outside of very rare exceptions like Thragtusk, there's zero counter play against the bottom putting as it's a gapping design hole. This hurts alot, as Wizards gets better at printing indestructible protection cards.
    This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.

  3. #43
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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    what are everyone's thoughts on relying on surgical extraction as a way to deal with terminus after the first one has been cast? i feel like most miracles players jump the gun on the first one if there are some reasonable early game threats.
    -rob

  4. #44

    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.
    Well, to be fair, it is kind of nice for certain Green Sun's Zenith decks. It can be cool having 5 copies of Sigarda. But that's pretty niche.

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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    what are everyone's thoughts on relying on surgical extraction as a way to deal with terminus after the first one has been cast? i feel like most miracles players jump the gun on the first one if there are some reasonable early game threats.
    It's fine, but like most "answers" to miracles, it's narrow and situational and dead to Counterbalance-Top.

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    Well, to be fair, it is kind of nice for certain Green Sun's Zenith decks. It can be cool having 5 copies of Sigarda. But that's pretty niche.
    GSZ is more of a nice-to-have than an effective weapon against Terminus. It's cool when they Terminus and you have 1-2 Zeniths in hand, but Zenith is open to counterspells and mana-hungry. And it does nothing against plow/snap-plow.

  6. #46

    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    @crimhead: go take a chill pill and try and understand what others are trying to tell you.

  7. #47

    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.
    This comment does have me wondering about Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, though there's obviously some gymnastics involved to avoid counters and removal.

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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Almost everything can be 'dead to countertop' in theory, just like almost everything is dead to 'They play Show and Tell Omniscience.' or 'They stormed out on t1.'

    Miracles can have answers to your answers. But it doesn't always find them.

    People really make it seem like Miracles is this unstoppable beast when really the deck loses a lot. It doesn't crush every tournament or even make every t8. Somehow people are beating this deck.

  9. #49

    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miagi View Post
    @crimhead: go take a chill pill and try and understand what others are trying to tell you.
    Believe it or not, I'm off work with a pulled hamstring and after reading this I hobbled to the medicine cabinet at took my pain killer and muscle relaxant. Thanks for the reminder.

    Still what your telling me is either objectively wrong (all other decks losing identity and presence) or comp!every irrelevant (some established decks are not tier-one).

    If you have anything of substance to say, why not simply say instead of telling me to relax and read your mind?
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  10. #50
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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Almost everything can be 'dead to countertop' in theory, just like almost everything is dead to 'They play Show and Tell Omniscience.' or 'They stormed out on t1.
    Except the only metagame solution for a resolved Countertop is Decay. Even T1 Storm kills have more potential stones to stumble over in legacy than a resolved Countertop like FoW, MBT, Surgical, etc
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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Resolved Countertop has stones to stumble over like "Crap, they played a 3 drop."

    Again this 'Miracles just can't lose! It's unbeatable! Answers to everything!' narrative doesn't fit with the reality where Miracles loses all the time.

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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    this narrative doesn't fit with the reality where Miracles loses all the time.
    Any data on that claim? Should we slap you with tournament data and T6/T16 statistics again?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    There is a difference between 1. 'Miracles is the best positioned deck in legacy' and 2. 'Miracles is unbeatable'.

    People cite its string of DtB placements as if that means #2, but really it just means #1. There are eras where a certain deck dominates a format so clearly that the format becomes basically unplayable. Eldrazi in Modern recently, various standards, etc. This is not what one of those formats looks like:

    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournamen...-9923951#paper

    The anti-Miracles crowd here tends to consist of people who a. Really like their decks b. Play decks have inherently bad Miracles matchups. The fact that people are so tied to their decks in legacy (for financial and non-financial reasons) makes it harder for the meta to shift and react to things. People just keep walking into walls - some people are gonna just keep playing their Elves deck no matter what. Other people are going to pick up decks that have at least 50-50 matchups vs the best deck in the format. They exist.

  14. #54

    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    There is a difference between 1. 'Miracles is the best positioned deck in legacy' and 2. 'Miracles is unbeatable'.

    People cite its string of DtB placements as if that means #2, but really it just means #1. There are eras where a certain deck dominates a format so clearly that the format becomes basically unplayable. Eldrazi in Modern recently, various standards, etc. This is not what one of those formats looks like:

    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournamen...-9923951#paper

    The anti-Miracles crowd here tends to consist of people who a. Really like their decks b. Play decks have inherently bad Miracles matchups. The fact that people are so tied to their decks in legacy (for financial and non-financial reasons) makes it harder for the meta to shift and react to things. People just keep walking into walls - some people are gonna just keep playing their Elves deck no matter what. Other people are going to pick up decks that have at least 50-50 matchups vs the best deck in the format. They exist.
    I don't think the majority of the "anti-Miracles" crowd is claiming that miracles is unbeatable.

    Do you really not see anything wrong with a single deck being the best positioned deck in legacy for 2 and a half years? And you don't think that fact is going to lead to a (even slightly) warped format? Your own advice is to...only play a deck that has an even or favorable matchup against ONE deck in the format, seems like it gives plenty of credence to Miracles being format warping.

  15. #55
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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Resolved Countertop has stones to stumble over like "Crap, they played a 3 drop."
    I'm not particularly anti-Miracles, but I think the issue everyone's alluding to in this thread is that if 1 axis of Miracles stumbles, the rest of the deck picks up the slack a little too easily. So yeah, occasionally a 3-drop slips through, but then they can Counterspell/FoW/Plow/Terminus/Wear Tear/Council's Judgment it.

    What's frustrating isn't just the strength of the individual components in Miracles. It's the feeling that even if you play tight and work around 1 axis of the deck, another comes through and undoes your hard work and tight play.

    That said, a deck shouldn't be banned just because it's frustrating to play against.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    There is a difference between 1. 'Miracles is the best positioned deck in legacy' and 2. 'Miracles is unbeatable'.

    People cite its string of DtB placements as if that means #2, but really it just means #1. There are eras where a certain deck dominates a format so clearly that the format becomes basically unplayable. Eldrazi in Modern recently, various standards, etc. This is not what one of those formats looks like:

    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournamen...-9923951#paper

    The anti-Miracles crowd here tends to consist of people who a. Really like their decks b. Play decks have inherently bad Miracles matchups. The fact that people are so tied to their decks in legacy (for financial and non-financial reasons) makes it harder for the meta to shift and react to things. People just keep walking into walls - some people are gonna just keep playing their Elves deck no matter what. Other people are going to pick up decks that have at least 50-50 matchups vs the best deck in the format. They exist.
    Of course, you're right that the deck isn't unbeatable. If it was, it would have a much higher share of the meta than it does. However, as you've pointed out, Legacy players are different beasts than Standard/Modern players. We love our decks (and in some cases, don't have the resources to easily switch to other decks), and aren't trying to make the pro-tour or whatever. In other words, if this was another format, Miracles would probably have more players than it does.

  16. #56

    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Except the only metagame solution for a resolved Countertop is Decay.
    This completely ignores the answers that prevent both pieces from resolving...

    That said, Cavern Of Souls blanks Counter-Top, at least for one spell a turn. Bosieju and K-Grip are more narrow answers, but nonetheless an import part of our meta.

    Going over their head is also an answer. Eldrazis do this very well, as does Engineered Explosives.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    There is a difference between 1. 'Miracles is the best positioned deck in legacy' and 2. 'Miracles is unbeatable'.
    Beat me too it. T6/T16 statistics do not support the wild claims that Miracles always has answers for everything or that all decks are losing their identity & presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    Do you really not see anything wrong with a single deck being the best positioned deck in legacy for 2 and a half years?
    Not necessarily, I prefer to look at the entire meta.

    Consider an extremely hypothetical meta with 99 tier one decks. 98 have a 1% meta share each, but the top dog has 2%. Is it unhealthy for one deck to have double the meta share of the next best decks - even if it lasts for years?

    The point is that in order to evaluate the health of the meta, we need to look at more than just which deck is best and for how long it has been the best. We need to look at how many other decks exist, and how many different styles are represented. We need to look at exactly what percent of top spots the deck is taking.

    For a lot of people, 15-20% is not intolerable. And anyone who looks at the DTB and says the format is not diverse is taking better pills that what my doctor prescribed!

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    Your ou own advice is to...only play a deck that has an even or favorable matchup against ONE deck in the format, seems like it gives plenty of credence to Miracles being format warping.
    If the meta is able to adapt to deal with a powerful deck, that is not format warping - this is called self regulation. It is format warping if the meta cannot adapt, or if it adapts by becoming overly narrow. While the meta is currently anything but narrow, we have an interesting situation because the meta seems to be refusing to adapt to the best of its ability. As iatee says, people can't or won't change decks.

    I don't think it's right to blame the meta (again, which is very diverse) on a single deck and not on the people who refuse to adapt and play a tier-one deck.

    Hopefully the article series will provide some real insight to help people play against Miracles even if they refuse to make a favourable meta-call when it comes to deck selection.
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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    This is actually the thing that I hate about Terminus the most. Never mind an instant-speed 1CMC board-wipe, but the fact that you are simply NEVER going to see the removed critters again and cannot protect (or even recycle them as resources in your graveyard, or reanimate them) them in any reasonable way is what makes it so back-breakinginly hard to deal with, in my opinion.
    Putting my own opinion of Derpinus aside, Squadron Hawk says hi. Again, and again, and again, after every Terminus.

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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    colo plays a deck with $200 Squadron Hawks already! (Imperial Recruiters.)

  19. #59

    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    If the meta is able to adapt to deal with a powerful deck, that is not format warping - this is called self regulation. It is format warping if the meta cannot adapt, or if it adapts by becoming overly narrow. While the meta is currently anything but narrow, we have an interesting situation because the meta seems to be refusing to adapt to the best of its ability. As iatee says, people can't or won't change decks.

    I don't think it's right to blame the meta (again, which is very diverse) on a single deck and not on the people who refuse to adapt and play a tier-one deck.

    Hopefully the article series will provide some real insight to help people play against Miracles even if they refuse to make a favourable meta-call when it comes to deck selection.
    This is a good point, but you also have to look at it from the opposite standpoint, like @Stuart was hinting at.

    If more people had the desire or the ability to change decks, or if Legacy was in a better position to earn people money (think pro-tour status), then wouldn't we -also- see more people switching to Miracles?

    If you make the claim that people simply aren't switching to decks that better beat Miracles, then you also have to admit the claim that more people would be switching to Miracles. Why switch to a deck to beat the #1 deck...if you could just switch to that #1 deck?

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    Re: [Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    colo plays a deck with $200 Squadron Hawks already! (Imperial Recruiters.)
    I like the monowhite version myself ;)

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