[Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 2

[Einherjer]

Here's part two!

Greetings

[Lemnear]

Here's part two!

Greetings

TL;DR
Run more Artifact/Enchantment based hate than Miracles can counter/remove and hope you land it before CounterTop is established

[Hopo]

It's stupid how Winter Orb basically exists to hose control decks and it took years until legacy players started even trying it. Talk about the lack of willingness to adapt.

[Lemnear]

It's stupid how Winter Orb basically exists to hose control decks and it took years until legacy players started even trying it. Talk about the lack of willingness to adapt.

Eh? Maybe because its symetrical, gets stuck in CounterTop and removed by Wear/Tear?

[meffeo]

I liked the article, don't get me wrong:

1) I have a very strict word limit

Then why waste 310 words on "dark confidants, pyromaniacs, seers, symbiotic insects, matrons, mothers and even advisors from the distant realms of the Kithkin gathered in caverns"?
Serious question.

[keys]

Eh? Maybe because its symetrical, gets stuck in CounterTop and removed by Wear/Tear?

WOrb also competes with Pithing Needle and Null Rod for SB slots.

Look at RUG Delver's typical SB composition for example:

--4 counters--
Pyroblast, Flusterstorm

--4 creature removal--
Submerge, Rough//Tumble, Dismember

--2 artifact/enchantment removal--
Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Destructive Revelry

--2 graveyard hate/recursion--
Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage, Life from the Loam

--2 utility permanents--
Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Winter Orb, Sylvan Library, Sulfuric Vortex

--2 creatures--
Sulfur Elemental, True-Name Nemesis, Vendilion Clique, Izzet Staticaster

Obviously that's 16 so you have to shave 1 somewhere, but you get the idea.

[Lemnear]

WOrb also competes with Pithing Needle and Null Rod for SB slots.

Look at RUG Delver's typical SB composition for example:

--4 counters--
Pyroblast, Flusterstorm

--4 creature removal--
Submerge, Rough//Tumble, Dismember

--2 artifact/enchantment removal--
Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Destructive Revelry

--2 graveyard hate/recursion--
Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage, Life from the Loam

--2 utility permanents--
Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Winter Orb, Sylvan Library, Sulfuric Vortex

--2 creatures--
Sulfur Elemental, True-Name Nemesis, Vendilion Clique, Izzet Staticaster

Obviously that's 16 so you have to shave 1 somewhere, but you get the idea.

I have no freaking idea, what your point is or why you see a SB like this set in stone in the first place

[keys]

I have no freaking idea, what your point is or why you see a SB like this set in stone in the first place

I was commenting on why people are slow to devote additional slots to cards like Winter Orb, precisely because people see SBs as inflexible...

[Whitefaces]

I have no freaking idea

Yup.

what your point is or why you see a SB like this set in stone in the first place

It's how most RUG Delver SBs are constructed. Based on the MD having a pretty standard 54/60 there are generally a certain number of cards you'll be boarding out in each matchup so the SB can be approached like this. It will be different for other decks, of course.

His point is that you can't just put in 2 Pithing Needles, 2 Null Rod and all the Winter Orbs you want to fight Miracles, there is the cost of SB space.

[Lemnear]

I was commenting on why people are slow to devote additional slots to cards like Winter Orb, precisely because people see SBs as inflexible...

Point taken here. The mayor reason Orb works for Delver is that Miracles isn't fond of boarding in Wear/Tear just for potential Orbs as the only target. That isn't an effect any deck can replicate and Miracles can adapt to that plan easily, as they will potential,y board out FoW in Delver Matchups anyways to open slots for removal like C.Judgement or W/T

Edit:

It's how most RUG Delver SBs are constructed. Based on the MD having a pretty standard 54/60 there are generally a certain number of cards you'll be boarding out in each matchup so the SB can be approached like this. It will be different for other decks, of course.

His point is that you can't just put in 2 Pithing Needles, 2 Null Rod and all the Winter Orbs you want to fight Miracles, there is the cost of SB space.

We definitely need to look at the people who are too dumb to come up with sideboards reflecting the metagame, but rather copy & paste random sideboard lists from the web and wonder, why they don't have enough SB cards for certain matchups. These people are sure the gold standard for our discussion here /s

[Whitefaces]

We definitely need to look at the people who are too dumb to come up with sideboards reflecting the metagame, but rather copy & paste random sideboard lists from the web and wonder, why they don't have enough SB cards for certain matchups. These people are sure the gold standard for our discussion here /s

I didn't say anything like that? Why use an argument when hyperbole will do.

SB space and how many cards you have to SB out in a MU are real things that can't be ignored. Of course you'd like to be playing all the Orbs and Needles you can, but it doesn't work like that. Yes, you need to build with the metagame in mind, but these slots aren't free.

[Lemnear]

I didn't say anything like that? Why use an argument when hyperbole will do.

You mean like you whinning that there are no slots to SB card like Orb because you have to play TNN, Loam, Clique, etc. "because thats how most RUG Delver SBs are constructed"? Quality arguments, dood.

SB space and how many cards you have to SB out in a MU are real things that can't be ignored. Of course you'd like to be playing all the Orbs and Needles you can, but it doesn't work like that. Yes, you need to build with the metagame in mind, but these slots aren't free.

Must be hard for notorious netdeckers to set priorities in their 75...

[Whitefaces]

You mean like you whinning that there are no slots to SB card like Orb because you have to play TNN, Loam, Clique, etc. "because thats how most RUG Delver SBs are constructed"? Quality arguments, dood.

That's not what I said at all, your definition of whining is odd too.

I never said there are no SB slots to play cards like Orb either, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm pointing out that SB slots come with a cost.

One of the examples in the article of a better Miracles 'package' is

'Winter Orb, Winter Orb, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Null Rod.' - is this realistic to go in a RUG SB to still have the slots for other matchups?

[Hopo]

Eh? Maybe because its symetrical, gets stuck in CounterTop and removed by Wear/Tear?

"it's bad because there are answers to it" is below the level of what I expect from these kind of conversations.

Winter orb has one big problem that you even mentioned: Not all decks can play it. Delver can and most likely should. Imagine what would happen if people did what they do in other formats all the time - adjust to the top decks and meta. People have played delver now, what, 3-4 years without orbs or anything and crying how miracles is so difficult to beat. Now when a premium sideboard tech is gaining ground, you drop in to say pretty much that it dies to removal. I don't understand your motives. Not sure if you want to contribute to pushing miracles to mortal status or keep up with the "bitching until something is banned because no tech can escape Council's judgement " stance.

You are likely witty and all but it's difficult to tell if you have a constructive point there somewhere or do you just love your own naysaying voice, so to say.

[dte]

Thank you for the article, interesting read an well written.

Three things worth mentioning that I did not see:
- for non U players, the prevalence of Wear-Tear ia a push to stop playing Enchants, as while sylvan library, bitterblossom or choke are good cards, getting 2 for one'd by W/T is no fun and null rod & pithing are too good to eschew.
- On your last comment, that "there are no decks that could run Chalice of the Void that do not do so already." is not that true. I started to run a couple of copies in elf SB and am quite satisfied by it. I really believe more decks should think about it. I do not know why D&T is not playing it for instance, as it is almost their only possible interaction T1 vs storm/belcher, and an excellent follow up after a vial.
- no mention of land in the permanent based hate article part? Miracle is so bad at interacting with them. Pendlehaven, CoS, Bosejiu are great cards versus miracle. Tar pit is also ok.

I have no freaking idea, what your point is or why you see a SB like this set in stone in the first place

Couldn't agree more. And I also believe that this is a reason why so many SB are wrongly build: you often hear/read about cards that should "replace" others, as if some proportions were optimal in any given meta, and regardless of the exact card that fulfill any given role.

[Megadeus]

The point is about RUG is that you shouldn't approach your sideboard to say, you have X removal, Y Grave hate, Z whatever else there's no room for winter orb because the internet says this is how to build a sideboard! This thinking process is exactly why people who simply copy and paste decks fail and wonder why so often.

[Julian23]

What dte said.

Ever since Miracles adopted Wear // Tear in early 2015, what we should be looking for to beat them are Planeswalkers, Lands and impactful Instant/Sorceries. Seeing 3 Wear//Tear in the sideboard is something I see pop-up even more often Unfortunately there's little of great impact that's really good.

If you wanna go the old Enchantment/Artifact route, you better have a very fast clock and/or good countermagic vs their removal. Preferably both, which is why I really do like Winter Orb in Delver decks. I also like Boseiju in Lands, actually swinging the match in Land's favor. But that's not enough. We need more. Regarding Chalice, I tried running 4 copies in the Elves sideboard and it was quite ok vs Miracles, but nothing more. It also GREATLY takes away from the % you have vs other combo deck, which is the biggest aspect Joe, Philipp and others are missing in their articles: it's never about just beating Miracles. It's about beating Miracles in the context of the Legacy meta. It's still -EV to cut a couple of cards that are really good in a large number of matchups for cards that are pretty good vs Miracles (and a few other) matchups. Unless you actually wanna be hoping to run into Miracles a lot, which is quite odd considering that you wanted better help against them in the first place. This is also why Krosan Grip, one of the very best cards vs the deck sees pretty much zero play.

When I read Joe's tweets and Philipp's articles about how to hurt Miracles, I feel like right now they're answering questions that were asked two years ago.

[Jain_Mor]

@Julian, truth.

Philipp pretty much says the same himself:

"The first example shows a classic, diversified suite of hate. However, if you are set on crushing (read beating) Miracles, I wouldn't advise such an approach. Don't get me wrong, such a combination may be incredibly powerful in a more mixed metagame and may be close to optimal under certain circumstances. But if you want to beat Miracles, you may want to make sure, similar to Dredge."

ie. playing a balanced sideboard for the meta will not help you against miracles. The deck is powerful+flexible enough that you need to skew your sideboard against it, however doing so is detrimental to the EV of your deck because legacy isn't like standard, people don't just jump onto the best deck, and so it is still only 15-20% of the winning meta.

I'm sure miracles would struggle if everyone were playing 1/3 of their sideboard slots as nullrods / needles / winterorbs XD but that would look like a broken situation to me. Is this what people think the format should become?

[Megadeus]

What other match ups would you bring in winter orb? Lands, miracles, ? Mediocre against 12 post I'd think. This is why I like Ajani in my maverick deck right now.

[Barook]

Ever since Miracles adopted Wear // Tear in early 2015, what we should be looking for to beat them are Planeswalkers, Lands and impactful Instant/Sorceries. Seeing 3 Wear//Tear in the sideboard is something I see pop-up even more often Unfortunately there's little of great impact that's really good.

If more PWs pop up to deal with Miracles, I expect them to simply play more Council's Judgment. Playable walkers are in the 3-4 mana range, so they have all the time in the world to set it up.

I also agree with previous posters that running a combination of enchantments and artifacts against them is no bueno because Wear/Tear 2-for-1s you.

As for Winter Orb, I wonder how the new Thalia impacts its playability.