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Thread: Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

  1. #1

    Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

    Conspiracy cards like Volatile Chimera are giving us a new type of linked ability pair.

    607.2m If an object has a static ability printed on it that allows a player to exile one or more cards “before you shuffle your deck to start the game” and an ability printed on it that refers to cards “exiled with cards named [this object’s name],” the second ability is linked to the first ability of any objects that had the specified name before the game began.
    This seems like it won't work with copy effects. For example, if I copy my Volatile Chimera with a Stunt Double (and I've exiled cards before the game) does the ability on the copy do anything?

  2. #2
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    Re: Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

    It does not work with copy effects.

    201.4a If an ability’s effect grants another ability to an object, and that second ability refers to that first ability’s source by name, the name refers only to the specific object that is that first ability’s source, not to any other object with the same name. This is also true if the second ability is copied onto a new object.
    Example: Gutter Grime has an ability that reads “Whenever a nontoken creature you control dies, put a slime counter on Gutter Grime, then put a green Ooze creature token onto the battlefield with ‘This creature’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of slime counters on Gutter Grime.’” The ability granted to the token only looks at the Gutter Grime that created the token, not at any other Gutter Grime on the battlefield. A copy of that token would also have an ability that referred only to the Gutter Grime that created the original token.

  3. #3

    Re: Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Technics View Post
    It does not work with copy effects.

    201.4a If an ability’s effect grants another ability to an object, and that second ability refers to that first ability’s source by name, the name refers only to the specific object that is that first ability’s source, not to any other object with the same name. This is also true if the second ability is copied onto a new object. ...
    The copy abililty on Stunt Double grants Stunt Double the Voltaic Chimera abilities. Those granted abilities do not refer to Stunt Double by name, so the "that second ability refers to the first ability's source by name" condition in the rule is not met. It doesn't seem like 201.4a is applicable here.

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    Re: Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    The copy abililty on Stunt Double grants Stunt Double the Voltaic Chimera abilities. Those granted abilities do not refer to Stunt Double by name, so the "that second ability refers to the first ability's source by name" condition in the rule is not met. It doesn't seem like 201.4a is applicable here.
    Perhaps I am missing something, but the 607.2m that you quoted in the OP already informs you that a copy of it will not work though, right?

    "Objects that had the specified name before the game began" are the only card's whose abilities are linked. So, indeed, Stunt Double, or any other copy made of the Chimera wouldn't have it's abilities linked and therefor the second ability is useless.
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  5. #5

    Re: Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Perhaps I am missing something, but the 607.2m that you quoted in the OP already informs you that a copy of it will not work though, right?

    "Objects that had the specified name before the game began" are the only card' whose abilities are linked. So, indeed, Stunt Double, or any other copy made of the Chimera wouldn't have it's abilities linked and therefore the second ability is useless.
    The card before the game, and the creature in play are different objects. The rules are pretty explicit about that. The voltaic chimera copy has the name "voltaic chimera", so it has the same name as the object that had the ability that exiled cards before the game.

    ...
    There's the argument that the ability on the copy does not meet the criteria for linking in 607.2m because it's not "printed on" the copy. (AFAICT the rules do not explicitly address what happens when a single linked ability from a pair of linked abilities is copied. 607.5 and 706.7 only address linked abilities that are copied in pairs, but it's reasonable to say that 'unprinted' abilities don't link unless otherwise specified.)

    But in that case, it also seems like Voltaic Chimera is `broken`: Suppose Volatile Chimera is activated and becomes a copy of Charmbreaker Devils. During the resolution of the copy ability the creature's name changes to `Charmbreaker Devils`. Now, the text printed on the card is "exiled with cards named Volatile Chimera", but the object's name is `Charmbreaker Devils` so the printed text is no longer "exiled with cards named [this object's name]" as specfied 607.2m.

  6. #6

    Re: Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

    607.2m links the exiled cards with cards that had a given name before the game i.e. printed on the card. It means that only cards exiled with Volatile Chimera before the game began are affected, not cards exiled by a card named Volatile Chimera after the game began and not cards exiled by another card before the game even it gets the name Volatile Chimera afterwards.

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    Re: Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    The copy abililty on Stunt Double grants Stunt Double the Voltaic Chimera abilities. Those granted abilities do not refer to Stunt Double by name, so the "that second ability refers to the first ability's source by name" condition in the rule is not met. It doesn't seem like 201.4a is applicable here.
    Chimera says "exiled with Chimera" so 201.4a 100% applies here.

  8. #8

    Re: Conspiracy Exile Before the Game Linked Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Technics View Post
    Chimera says "exiled with Chimera" so 201.4a 100% applies here.
    It says "exiled with cards named volatile chimera." (201.4a clearly does apply to the "Volatile Chimera becomes..." sentence.)

    Edit: There's also no 'back-linking' to abilities on the object, so 201.4a doesn't really do anything significant when applied to that sentence.

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