@Removal: I adjusted my current SB to: 2x Swords to.. and 2x Blessed Alliance and 1x Mangara (former build run: 3 StP, 2 Mangara) i still feel that Swords can be very good in some metagames but i faced a situation vs Grixis Delver, stick Chalice and got beaten by big Zombie-Fish while holding swords in hand... overall Swords shines vs Eldrazi, Aggro Loam, all BGx Decks, MUD and DnT etc. overall vs all creature decks that aren't stopped from Chalice at 1. While sticking a Chalice should be fine in Delver matchups it can be tricky if you face YP, Gofy, Angler. Some situations maybe solved with Jailer/Displacer but since we run no Cantrips we don't always get the right card.
Blessed Alliance is a card that can be powered up in mid-lategame situations and is capable to turn the tide in our favour. I think i would play this card over any Spatial Contortions - Spartial can be powered out T1 with a solland but can only kill most utility creatures and in this case i feel Warping Wail should be stronger besides it can't kill a flipped delver.
Declaration in Stone can be good if you have many Gofy, Eldrazi (=bigger targets) in your meta and like to have a removal that can be >2:1 if you are lucky, especially opponents with BGx decks like to slam as much Gofys as possible on the field against our deck which can lead to a blowout if you have the Declaration in hand. Sadly card is only sorcery speed.
@Quote: "How did you feel about Orzhov Pontiff and Elspeth?" Since i am an advocate of Pontiff since the begining i feel he is a meta card (see removal above) you can run fine without it. He shines vs DnT, Elves, YP, Infect and TNN(Blade Decks) as a backup removal (not common to get him online turn 2 - see Prelate discussion) most of the time he is a >2:1 in terms of card advantage and i like that he can be uncounterable against blue decks. The other big point is, that most list without him (and without Declaration in stone) have no Sweeper and trade 1:1 until they stick Displacer(+Jailer) that can be devasting against some decks that swarm you and also against combo if ANT goes for Empty or you face a rare Belcher player that also tend to slam Goblin tokens on the field. I would always board Pontiff vs ANT too, regardless of the good amount of common hate pieces we run.
Elspeth 1.0 is my switch with Mangara so i run 0-2 depending on the build. If she sticks she is very good (like Mangara) and it simply is a card vs Miracle and other heavy control builds. There are pros and cons either way, both: Mangara and Elspeth are playable and good if you like flexible cards and answers to lockout pieces like Moat.
@Build: Fatal destroyed my build lately on cockatrice, while i still think i am well prepared for other decks my pile of cards aren't well equiped against the mirror (which i never played before) cards like Stoneforge, Blade Splicer etc.
@pocari79: Thanks for your detailed tournament report! Nice results!
@Sanctum Prelate: I also feel that this guy is "overkill" in most cases and kind of "dead" if you face a creature heavy deck since 2/2 (especially without Equipment) can't do anything on the field against most non combo decks, even against miracle you can't risk to run into a snapcaster mage unless you have Thalia 2.0 or Displacer online. I run a pair of Thorn at Side which worked well togehter with Thalia(s) and are castable with Sollands T1. I always struggled to include Prelate as a valid option, but other players have success with the card and in the right situation/matchup it can work well.
EDIT (hofzge post): @Smuggler's Copter i like that someone test the new toy. What i like at Copter is a) filtering (best with Thalia(s) and moxen) and that you can slam it down T1 with Solland (like Revoker and Chalice) and attack T2 if you follow up with a creature c) flying over a stalled board - but i dislike that you maybe tap your blocker which can lead to a counterattack and that Copter is (especially as a 2off) not a strong topdeck if the game goes on compared to Jitte which is able to turn the tide instantly if you are able to draw+play+equip. So i am not sold on Copter yet but i can see that it can work and shorten the clock if played early enough.
TEAM MtG Berlin
Well i think the main advantage is not clock, even tough that is great, but the filtering of cards. This deck is very start hand dependent like any stompy deck and as the copter comes down T1 and attacks T2 it helps a lot to make you draw the right cards.Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
You can also loot if you block and you can also do that T2 if needed. That's what I like - a looting flying blocker big enough to be a clock and block Delver if needed
Again: you can block and already loot and then you have an attacker that will improve the quality of cards that you draw. I think that a deck with roughly 50% mana (25 lands, 4 mox) has good use for that.
Chalice on 1
I've never actually drawn either Pontiff or Elspeth in any of my games but I like having Pontiffs in the board since I dislike losing to something random like a True-Name Nemesis or token generating decks that can go wide and chump block all day long.
I also feel that Elspeth isn't really needed, we're already playing so many hard to remove threats and I'd rather have another answer type card in the sideboard.
Your main looks very close to what I might be playing moving forward. I'd probably go:
-1 City
-1 Diamond
+1 Revoker
+1 Plains
But otherwise looks tight.
I really want to try Copter, though as MD said, it's a pretty atrocious topdeck and can also make blocking harder for us. Testing will tell whether it's good enough. Something to smooth out the typically high-variance Stompy draws is pretty cool. Also, Copter is cool with manlands too, and I'd love to find room for two Factories. Probably would have to cut Cities entirely and the Canopy.
Also, interesting choice with the Leyline - I kind of like it - especially since it's very hardcastable and a bit more flexible than Trap (which I've liked, at least in my meta, a fair bit) in some ways.
And yes, I think Declaration will do a lot moving forward. Feels like a nice blend of Plows/Contortion/Pontiff, in some ways. That being said, I can certainly see the merit in Blessed Alliance moving forward - flexibility is awesome and True-Name is still a pain for us.
Some comments about removal options (that I haven't already commented about):
Blessed Alliance: I've actually tried this before, and it was pretty bad. The most popular Delver deck plays Young Pyromancer now, so it often gets neutralized by elemental tokens, and all the other creature decks run random other weenies alongside the targets you actually care about. It's pretty miserable getting clocked by a Serra Avenger or a Goyf and not being able to do anything about it because your opponent is also attacking with a Revoker or a Baleful Strix or something. It's really only good against exactly TNN, and TNN is really rare these days, at least where I play. Too narrow, in my opinion, unless Stoneblade is very popular in your meta.
Spatial Contortion: Most of the creatures we want to kill are actually small. There are, in my mind exactly three commonly played non-Eldrazi creatures that Spatial Contortion can't kill: Goyf, Angler, and Knight of the Reliquary. That's it. Contortion kills everything else at instant speed underneath Chalice. I think this card is somewhat underrated. That being said, we still need some way to interact with those three creatures.
Declaration in Stone: I mentioned this at the end of my report last page, and I'd love to try it out. But at the end of the day, it's a 2cmc sorcery, so I'm not optimistic that it will actually be good. The thing that it has going for it is that the matchups where you want Swords (i.e. creature matchups where you side out chalice) are generally pretty slow and grindy. That makes the cost and speed less of an issue, although at the same time it makes the drawback worse (if you're not clearing tokens, of course).
Ratchet Bomb and Engineered Explosives: They are slow and frustrating and it feels like the white splash ought to give you better options than these, but perhaps we just have to suck it up. Bomb is old Colorless Eldrazi tech, which many of you may have experience playing with, but EE is a consideration since Bomb is set to 0 or 1 most of the time.
I have played Spatial Contortion now for some time and it really is the most generic removal spell but the least powerful. Your creatures are generally good against random small guys as many of them have first strike, but against a Goyf or Gurmag Angler you are kind of helpless.
The declaration is the least of painful solutions against big critters and at the same time is randomly powerful against swarm things which are a thing the deck has problems with.
Chalice on 1
Blessed Alliance - note for every users :-) you can cast it after dmg step in clean up when you block smaller creature..
I don't like Declaration in Stone since it's always a extra draw for opponent for 2 mana. Vs swarm - Jitte is probably best answer.
Declaration is actually very well-suited to this deck due to the taxing elements. When you have a Thalia or two out, the opponent usually needs to spend all of his or her mana to break the clue, so the choice becomes make a play or crack a clue and not make a play. The actual drawback of the card is that it costs white mana, and this deck is primarily colorless. I think the main challenge this deck faces is producing the right type of mana at the right time, which is quite difficult without fetches.
Agree with ESG here - compared to Contortion, or Wail, or Dismember, Declaration is much harder to cast than other options (and much slower, since it can't be cast off a single Tomb), but it's downside is pretty negligible due to how the deck typically functions. If your opponent takes a turn off drawing cards we are laughing, because this is an extra turn we get to deploy a lock piece to stop them from playing whatever they draw anyway, or we're beating them in the face and they're dead. Sure, against some grindy matches I'm sure it can be an issue (eg. Shardless), but I think if our plan is working its downside should be negligible. I also certainly like it more than Bomb if we want an answer to tokens.
In the end, I'm liking Dismember enough still. I really do wanna test the new tech sometime soon, but alas I am in university hell currently.
none of our tax effects tax activated abilities, so that logic doesn't work.
not saying declaration isn't worth testing, just that the logic behind your reasons doesn't work. also, since declaration is a sorcery, they can activate the clue during your turn after it resolves.
Agree with @ZeroorDie - I don't lik card 1W - sorcery - exile target creature, opponent draw a card for me it's just pure card disadvantage - I don't like it.
You guys are free to play whatever you like. I tested the card, and it tested well. I then played the card in real matches and found it strong. I also explained what I felt was the card's drawback. It's frustrating to share my insight and be met with, "That logic doesn't work," by people who haven't even TESTED the card.
Activated abilities don't need to be taxed for Declaration to be effective. You are exiling their best creature in exchange for a random card. If you get to live the dream, you're exiling multiple copies of their best creature for two random cards. Also, in order to get these cards, the opponent has to pay mana, but this deck is effective at denying mana or slowing their deck down, so cracking a clue is often a real decision point and not an instant conversion.
Again, you don't have to like a card. It makes no difference to me whether you run Declaration or not.
I agree; I don't know why you are all so quick to be dismissive. I myself don't have a super strong opinion one way or the other, but I am at least willing to test it.
Speaking of which, I played about 15 games versus an Infect friend tonight to see if the 1W sorcery could possibly be acceptable against such a proactive deck, and the answer is "kind of, but not really". You often want to cast removal against Infect on your turn to prevent getting blown out by Vines anyway, so the timing is actually not a showstopping issue (except when their creature is Inkmoth Nexus). The problem is that when they have a good target for Declaration, they are usually in want of a pump/protection spell if it actually resolves - otherwise, it wouldn't have resolved. In that situation, giving them a draw helps them find it. For instance, I lost a game DiS-ing a pair of Blighted Agents in a long, drawn-out game because the clues found him a pump spell for his Nexus. I think Declaration should probably not be sideboarded in against Infect.
That being said, it made it clear that it might be OK versus some other decks. I am eager to try it against Grixis Delver.
Blessed Alliance looks much better vs infect, they mostly have 1 thread attacking, it dodge their protection in sort of hexproof, works also vs Nexus.
easy there guy. I actually do intend on testing the card and have been looking at it as a removal option for a while, but no amount of testing is going to change how the card works.
this forum is dedicated to building competitive legacy deck, so a post full of misinformation should be corrected.
my list after a few weeks of testing. mostly 3-1 finishes at my lgs. sideboard is still in Flux so not posting that for now.
Creatures
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Palace Jailer
4x Thought-Knot seer
4x Reality Smasher
Other
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
3x Mox Diamond
2x Dismember (looking at Blessed Alliance, Declaration in Stone and Oblivion Ring in this slot)
Lands
6x Plains (considering replacing 2 with Flagstones of Trokair for Wasteland protection)
2x Karakas
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x City of Traitors
3x Wasteland
My current list, with two open slots. I really don’t like revoker 3-4, or displacer and THC #4. Was considering playing 2x thorn or sphere, or adding 2 more creatures. My prelates will be here soon, so I may test those, but I’m not sure if that’s where I want to be. I could also try Elsepth, but I’m really trying to avoid WW mana costs. A decent flier would be great, and when I can get my hands on some Smugglers Copter, I will be testing those. For now it will likely be either 2x Sphere or 2x Lodestone, but since I’m trying to fill in the 2cmc slot for more turn 1-2 play sphere is the likely candidate. If I go towards copters I will need creatures in that slot. I am very reluctant to go below 4x Smasher as this deck is great at locking up the early game, but terrible at closing if your opponent resolves anything useful. Playing this is reminiscent of MUD where it’s very easy to draw the wrong half of your lands for the creatures you have.
ZEROorDIE: I'm not sure how replacing basic lands with non-basics help you out vs Wasteland. I like the high plains counts vs Blood Moon.
Here's the list I'll likely bring to Eternal Weekend:
Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
1x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Karakas
5x Plains
4x Wasteland
Instant (2)
2x Warping Wail
Creature (25)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Palace Jailer
2x Reality Smasher
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer
Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Mox Diamond
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard (15)
1x Declaration in Stone
2x Disenchant
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2x Spatial Contortion
3x Rest in Peace
2x Winter Orb
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Containment Priest
A few thoughts on the list:
- I vacillate between the 4th THC and 3rd Reality Smasher. I'll probably play the 3rd Smasher for EW since it's a better draw when you're running well, and you have to get a bit lucky to spike a major tournament. For a weekly list, I'd probably go with the 4th THC, though, since sometimes it's very difficult to hit 5 mana, and since my list runs 3 Palace Jailer already the mana curve is higher than average. It sucks to open a hand of Plains Wasteland Cavern TKS Jailer Smasher etc.
- Speaking of Palace Jailer, it's easily my favorite card in the deck. The card draw is so relevant and important and our aggression and taxing makes it really hard for the opponent to regain the monarch. It's obviously also busted with Displacer. I did run the full 4 for a while, but feel 3 is a good compromise. It serves the same role as Dismember did in the maindeck, and also allows me to play Spatial Contortion in the SB over Swords to Plowshares.
- I tested extensively with STP and didn't like it. There were too many times that I couldn't kill a Gurmag Angler because of my own Chalice. Between Jailer, Warping Wail and Spatial Contortion, Blessed Alliance and Declaration in Stone in the SB I feel we have a good mix to take care of any threat.
- I agree with many comments about Declaration in Stone on both sides, but it still seems necessary to me. The deck has trouble with multiple tarmogoyfts, creature token swarm, and some large creatures. I've been boarding it in vs Shardless, Delver, Eldrazi and Reanimator.
- Blessed Alliance has been good for me as outs to Marit Lage and TNN. I like BA better than Orzhov Pontiff since I only play 3 Mox Diamonds and Pontiff does nothing if TNN is equipped with anything or pumped by a merfolk lord. It can also come in vs Burn or UR Delver to gain some life.
- Still deciding between 2 or 3 Karakas. Looks like some people are running a 2nd City of Traitors over the 3rd Karakas, but for me I'm debating between 3rd Karakas and 6th Plains. City is probably my least favorite card in the deck, but it is necessary due to the curve. I just can't convince myself to play 2 since the 2 City draw is just the worst.
- Since people will ask, yes the WW of 3 Jailer / 2 Prelate is very taxing on the deck. To compensate I will almost always put my 1st Cavern on Human which can be awkward, but generally isn't that bad.
- Last thought: I think Eldrazi Displacer is one of the best cards in the deck and should never be trimmed.
Interesting list, understand all decision taken.
Still didn't decide about removal suite, tested Alliance and it's very well suited for this deck along with 4 (2 MD, 2 SB) Jailers. I found that Displacer gives me quite a lot of trouble with too many Caverns (4) - needed WW for Jailer, and when I named Human I'm missing sometimes white for Eldrazi as turn 2 drop, I trimmed 1 Cavern for plains since I'm also running SFM package, which helps a lot in tide matchups (D&T/Shardless).
1 or 2 City is always a problem since it gives a lot of boost for example turn 1 SFM from Mox then Sol land (non-Eldrazi) to cast and attack with jitte gives me a lot of wins in fair matchups.
I also shaved 4th Thalia's (both ones) since it's not good in D&T mirror - too many times I get multiple Thalia's and stuck without a real thread.
I don't know why I wrote that (probably because I typed up this post before I had my coffee) I was planning on testing Armageddon in this list, that's why flagstone.
also, I trimmed a Displacer because it really doesn't do anything in multiples. I want to see one, maybe 2 per game.
re: StP, I have 2 swords, 2 pithing needle in the side that I will bring in as a package against decks where chalice isn't great. although this may change if I like blessed alliance and declaration in stone.
I suppose going to three Smasher is reasonable, but with how well this deck slows your opponent, and the 10 sol lands and 3 mox I'm playing, I haven't had any issues casting reality Smasher.
edit: when I started this list I was playing three Karakas, but had to many scenarios where I had 2 in my first 10 cards and that was no bueno
I agree with this assessment.
Why are you being condescending? I'm a competitive player. I've been contributing to this site for six years. Posting my experience with a card, pros and cons, is not misinformation. How is it that your armchair analysis alone is worth more than the analysis of someone who has played a card in real matches? I think it's valuable to hear people's experience.
Again, I'm not hyping a card. I simply provided my experiences with Declaration, contributing to the general discussion on removal options. You and Fatal then dismissed it without any testing. I'm not saying you need to play it.
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