Kaladesh -or- When Kiran met Pia

[Ace/Homebrew]

Dovin Baan

Well... at least this makes sense now:



Dovin seems good! Not Legacy good... but playable card is playable.

[MaximumC]

Printing them in form of expedition is questionable move. I mean, it's defintely better than not reprinting them at all in any form, but to say these expedition reprints will change any prices of the regular versions of these particular cards is obviously wrong.

That's the point: they are reprinting cards in some form. That's a good thing. Let's be thankful this is happening and be happy that Wizards understands the desires of their customers. Let's not complain that they're not doing ENOUGH of it. I am one of those rare fellows that actually LOVED Chronicles when it came out. No better way for a high school kid to get his hands on a lot of out of print cards than that dirt-cheap, white bordered garbage set. I'd love it if they did it again. But, I understand why they do not, and I am happy they're doing SOMETHING.

And I don't think it's fair to say that premium printings don't affect prices. Sure, you don't see a massive cratering of the prices immediately. The Expeditions did not tank the normal versions. However, with the Masterpiece reprints, it becomes massively more difficult for speculators to stage a buy-out of all the small number of versions of a card on the market. Imagine if Moat were not on the reserve list and were printed as an Expedition -- would it still have been the target of a buyout?

The point is, this behavior is good, thwarts some of the market problems Magic has, and if we want more of it, we need to express how much we LIKE it. Not whine about how we want more.

Protection - Check
Pitches to Fow - Check
Draw - Check
Still not as good as JMTS - Check

I think Kiora had a sex change operation.



Seems like the same damn card to me. The ultimate is worse, though.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Dovin survives Bolt, and has extra fingers.

[rufus]

Hmm... does bomat courier work as a burn card?

Bomat Courier 1
Haste
When Bomat Courier attacks, exile the top card of your library face down (you can't look at it)

R,Discard Your hand, Sacrifice Bomat Courier: Put all cards exiled with bomat courier into their owners' hands.
1/1

Also another self-renanimator for modern dredge.

[H]

Dovin survives Bolt, and has extra fingers.

Kiora is flat unplayble in basically every format. This guy is probably unplayable in anything but Modern and Standard. At a CMC of 3 he could have been very solidly good to great. At this cost, Narset Transcendent is probably better in these colors.

On the JTMS Scale he is probably a 5/10. For reference, LilianaOTV is an 8, new Chandra is probably a 7, obviously JTMS is the pinnacle, a 10/10 (not that he is perfect, but he is probably the most powerful 'Walker we will ever see printed).

[Richard Cheese]

How can we get hyped when it's clear Wizards understands reprints are needed and is demonstrating it will reprint those cards? Oh, I duuno.

I mean, cmon. Are we really gonna grumble about how theyre not printing ENOUGH? Shouldn't we congratulate Wizards for doing what everyone wants them to do?

Because they aren't appreciably increasing the available supply so this will have little to no impact on the secondary market for those cards?

Just look at the prices on Zendikar fetches. Every one of them except Misty is higher now than before BFZ, and none of them significantly dropped after it came out. The masterpieces are cool and all, but it's fairly obvious that this is more about moving packs, and I think that's fine. Hasbro wants to make money just like every other corporation, and I'd rather the chase cards be reprints than more stupidly overpowered mythics. My only concern is that they'll use these as an excuse to do fewer real reprints because it allows them to appease the community while maintaining the reprint equity of those cards.

Edit: I don't see how these affect buyouts either, except maybe when the set is still being printed. If you bought up all the Tarns now and for some strange reason didn't buy the expeditions too, worst case you're capped at the price of the expedition versions. If by some miracle the expedition version does not also increase in price, that's a measly 200% increase!

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Kiora is flat unplayble in basically every format. This guy is probably unplayable in anything but Modern and Standard. At a CMC of 3 he could have been very solidly good to great. At this cost, Narset Transcendent is probably better in these colors.

On the JTMS Scale he is probably a 5/10. For reference, LilianaOTV is an 8, new Chandra is probably a 7, obviously JTMS is the pinnacle, a 10/10 (not that he is perfect, but he is probably the most powerful 'Walker we will ever see printed).

This scale is off. If LoTV is 8 and JTMS is 10, what the hell is 9. You can say nothing is 9 rated, you just want an empty slot to make JTMS look better, but... yah whatever!

[the Thin White Duke]

Because they aren't appreciably increasing the available supply so this will have little to no impact on the secondary market for those cards?

Just look at the prices on Zendikar fetches. Every one of them except Misty is higher now than before BFZ, and none of them significantly dropped after it came out. The masterpieces are cool and all, but it's fairly obvious that this is more about moving packs, and I think that's fine. Hasbro wants to make money just like every other corporation, and I'd rather the chase cards be reprints than more stupidly overpowered mythics. My only concern is that they'll use these as an excuse to do fewer real reprints because it allows them to appease the community while maintaining the reprint equity of those cards.

Edit: I don't see how these affect buyouts either, except maybe when the set is still being printed. If you bought up all the Tarns now and for some strange reason didn't buy the expeditions too, worst case you're capped at the price of the expedition versions. If by some miracle the expedition version does not also increase in price, that's a measly 200% increase!

Agreed 100%. This kind of limited "reprint" only benefits Wizards and the vendors who will sell these for $$ to people who need prepackaged pimp products.
This is like sports cards companies when they started producing limited run chase cards to sell boxes. A 1992 Frank Thomas Diamond King did not affect a 1991 Frank Thomas standard set card. The two are completely separate entities due to print runs. These new expeditions should not even be considered reprints by any stretch. If anything they are akin to Judge foils. These wull not impact pricing of the srandard printings.
Furthermore, if Wizards wanted to be intellectually honest, they would print these with gold borders and hence, not tournament legal.
Sorry to derail a spoiler thread.

[H]

This scale is off. If LoTV is 8 and JTMS is 10, what the hell is 9. You can say nothing is 9 rated, you just want an empty slot to make JTMS look better, but... yah whatever!

It's not to make Jace look better, Jace is better. What is the next best 'Walker to Jace? Liliana, right? Is she even on the same level though? No, I don't believe she is at all. You can disagree and that is fine, but that is how I came up with it.

[Dice_Box]

Best walker is always Format dependent. The best walker in Legacy (Jace) is not the same as the best in Vintage (Dack). At least in my view. So I think that Jace being the "Best" is context dependent. Granted, the context is the format this forum is made for... so I will shut up now.

[bruizar]

This scale is off. If LoTV is 8 and JTMS is 10, what the hell is 9. You can say nothing is 9 rated, you just want an empty slot to make JTMS look better, but... yah whatever!

Ordinal vs ratio

[H]

Best walker is always Format dependent. The best walker in Legacy (Jace) is not the same as the best in Vintage (Dack). At least in my view. So I think that Jace being the "Best" is context dependent. Granted, the context is the format this forum is made for... so I will shut up now.

A fair point. Best, in the context of my post, would be "most powerful/playable" and presumably in Legacy, since that's where we are. Obviously Modern is a whole different animal, since Jace, Dack, even Kaya are not legal. Vintage is also a totally different animal, because of how central Artifacts are and the prevelance of fast Mana.

Of course there is a boat-load of reasons why at a given moment any Planewalker could be better than any other, but on the balance of all of their abilities with respect to their CMC, I don't see any of them being near Jace in power-level.

Ordinal vs ratio

Word.

At least someone gets it.

[ahg113]

A fair point. Best, in the context of my post, would be "most powerful/playable" and presumably in Legacy, since that's where we are. Obviously Modern is a whole different animal, since Jace, Dack, even Kaya are not legal. Vintage is also a totally different animal, because of how central Artifacts are and the prevelance of fast Mana.

Of course there is a boat-load of reasons why at a given moment any Planewalker could be better than any other, but on the balance of all of their abilities with respect to their CMC, I don't see any of them being near Jace in power-level.



Word.

At least someone gets it.

Just for the heck of it, based on "context" I've often been pissed to see a Karn Liberated across the board, (but maybe that was Modern... play so infrequently now, memories mish-mashing). In those big mana decks, that's as easily playable as JTMS in a reg U deck.

[MaximumC]

It's not to make Jace look better, Jace is better. What is the next best 'Walker to Jace? Liliana, right? Is she even on the same level though? No, I don't believe she is at all. You can disagree and that is fine, but that is how I came up with it.

For all of you who like lists, I have determined for all time:

HOW GUD IS YOUR PLANESWALKER

10 - Jace, The MindSculptor (multi-format all-star)

9 - Liliana of the Veil, Dack Fayden, Tezzeret The Seeker (format dependent all-star)

8 - Nahiri, the Harbinger, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Narset Transcendant, Daretti, Scrap Savant, Domi Rade, Karn Liberated (deck-specific key card)

7 - Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Ajani Vengant, Chandra Pyromaster, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Kaya, Ghost Assassin,
Koth of the Hammer, Liliana, the Last Hope, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, Ob Nixilis Reignited, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (Excellent role-players)

6 - Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Chandra, Flame Caller, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Garruk Wildspeaker, Jace Beleren, Kiora, Master of the Depths, Liliana of the Dark Realms,
Nissa, Worldwaker, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, Ral Zarek, Sorin Markov, Tamiyo, Field Researcher, Xenagos, the Reveler (powerful , unique, or undercosted effects, potentially something to brew with. Sorin specifically is saved by EDH!)

5 - Arlin Kordd, Chandra, the Firebrand, Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury, Garruck Relentless, Garruk, Caller of Beasts, Jace, Architect of Thought, Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Sarkhan Unbroken, Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, Venser, the Sojourner, Vraska the Unseen (the bottom tier of "playable" walkers; at least these walkers protect themselves or do something unique, even if no deck or very few decks have taken advantage of it.)

4 - Ajani Steadfast, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, Chandra Nalaar, Chandra, the Fire, Gideon, Champion of Justice, Jace, Memory Adept, Liliana Vess, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker (has some utility, but fails to do some basic stuff like protect itself and probably won't see any play anymore even if it did while in Standard)

3 - Ajani Goldmane, Garruk, Apex Predator, Jace, the Living Guildpact, Jace, Unraveler of Secrets,
Nahiri, the Lithomancer, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Nissa Revane, Sarkhan Vol (pretty bad walkers with minor effects compared to their cost that are hard to see why you'd play them)

2 - Chandra Ablaze, Elspeth Tirel, Sarkhan the Mad, Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Teferi, Temporal Archmage (overcosted or weak to the point where you'll be mocked for playing it)

1 - Tibalt, the Fiend Blooded (garbage tier)

Best walker is always Format dependent. The best walker in Legacy (Jace) is not the same as the best in Vintage (Dack). At least in my view. So I think that Jace being the "Best" is context dependent. Granted, the context is the format this forum is made for... so I will shut up now.

You lie, list is king.

[ahg113]

You lie, list is king.

Short, sweet, alliterative, admirable pretty prose.

P.S. - Sounds like something the Mayor would say on China, IL.

[ReAnimator]

All you people complaining that the Masterpieces won't be helping card prices are insane. They might not help you with card prices and availability, but they certainly push down the price of standard by a whole lot, making any legacy/modern payables in those sets cheaper. As for legacy stuff, that's what EMA and MMA are supposed to do. The Masterpieces aren't meant as price correction and availability helpers for eternal formats. Not to mention there will be players who get masterpieces of certain cards and then sell their originals, there will be a bit of a help with availability even if it's small, and might not effect the price.

Any reprinting is helpful no mater how limited, and its a heck of a lot better than Wotc's previous policy of doing sweet fuck all. We now have MA sets and these as well. That is something and heading in the right direction, even if it isn't fixing every single thing right away.

[H]

You lie, list is king.

I disagree with a bunch of stuff on this ontology, but tiers are fair. Again, mine was rating Jace a ten out of ten and going from there and by that I do not believe we have ever seen a nine.

[BenBleiweiss]

I have to imagine that Artifact Kird Ape makes the cut somewhere.

[Gheizen64]

I have to imagine that Artifact Kird Ape makes the cut somewhere.

I doubt kird ape is even good in standard nowadays without good burn to compliment it and midrange creatures being much better than they used to be.

EDIT: i mean white has what is essentially a 3/2 first striker for W on attack in this set. The card would've been good/playable at R 2/1, gain haste if you control artifacts, but no one has time for kird apes in 2016.

[MaximumC]

I have to imagine that Artifact Kird Ape makes the cut somewhere.

Reminder: this card sees no play.