[State of the Art 2016] by Mark Rosewater

[Lemnear]

Yes, but it's just so much fun dammit .

I am sure there is a middle-way between fun and losing with fatties in hand

[colo]

Why they don't print any nice new removal tools in non-standard set is not really understandable for me.

How could a "removal tool" be better than (or even just up to par to) Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Supreme Verdict, or Terminus? I think the game's more than fine in that regard.

[Zombie]

How could a "removal tool" be better than (or even just up to par to) Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Supreme Verdict, or Terminus? I think the game's more than fine in that regard.

By being a green Elf, even 0/1 is fine. >:)

[LarsLeif]

TC & DTT are banned and the rest of your named cards are focused on creatures like I said.

Not in standard they weren't. Stop taking the eternal perspective when discussing whether or not spells are too bad/too focused on creatures. There are always a lot of powerful spells in standard and limited that are not creatures or focused on creatures. Hell, It wasn't that long ago that a creatureless, almost win condition-less deck won the standard pro tour.

I'm not arguing against the fact that standard and limited has a clear creature focus, that just turns newer players on more than intricate stack operations with Flusterstorm and stacked top activations. But looking at what's playable in legacy and stating that there isn't powerful spells with a non-creature focus printed anymore is simply not true, it just appears that way for us as they usually turn out not good enough (or too good) for legacy where you can play all of the overpowered spells like Plow, Terminus, Brainstorm, Force, LED etc.

[LarsLeif]

Yeah right now the strenght of creatures is kinda annoying atm moment. You don't play spells anymore you just play the creatures they are printed on nowadays (Reflector mage, Spell Queller, Prelate). Why they don't print any nice new removal tools in non-standard set is not really understandable for me.

Besides Toxic Deluge, Councils Judgement och Sudden Demise you mean? :p

[Lemnear]

Not in standard they weren't. Stop taking the eternal perspective when discussing whether or not spells are too bad/too focused on creatures. There are always a lot of powerful spells in standard and limited that are not creatures or focused on creatures. Hell, It wasn't that long ago that a creatureless, almost win condition-less deck won the standard pro tour.

My bad for commenting FROM AN ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE in a LEGACY FORUM instead of a Standard/Limited/Draft one. In a world where printing Prelate for 3cc is fine but 3cc counterspells are the design-norm due to NWO, its clear why non-creature cards have a tough time sinking into Legacy grounds

[LarsLeif]

My bad for commenting FROM AN ETERNAL PERSPECTIVE in a LEGACY FORUM instead of a Standard/Limited/Draft one. In a world where printing Prelate for 3cc is fine but 3cc counterspells are the design-norm due to NWO, its clear why non-creature cards have a tough time sinking into Legacy grounds

Of course I understand your urge to discuss printings from a eternal perspective, but be careful so that your choice of perspective don't make you draw the wrong conclusions, e.g that there isn't powerful non-creature spells printed anymore for example. There are plenty of those. Try a limited format where answers are twice as cheap as the threats and you will see how broken and weird that plays out for example.

[square_two]

The deck needs a complete structural overhaul, starting with a metagame analysis to determine the third color or if its even needed in the first place, followed by exploring how you can profit from the mana-scaling ability of the deck without running high-cost chaff which fucks over the performance stability

It's almost like we need more creatures that have the ability to be played early for less value but can be played later for more value but with a higher required mana cost...sort of like it being kicked up a notch with more mana. Sure wish we had more options like that!

[Lemnear]

It's almost like we need more creatures that have the ability to be played early for less value but can be played later for more value but with a higher required mana cost...sort of like it being kicked up a notch with more mana. Sure wish we had more options like that!

To no ones surprise, NicFit is THE home for all the various Creature-Kicker variants WotC printed over the year and yet I have not seen anyone actually trying to explore, which one is the best. Its not that stuff like Tasigur or Polukranos seem to have been excessively tested

[thecrav]

Honestly the last three mechanics which stick with me were Miracle, Delve and Prowess

And Delve wasn't even a new mechanic - It's from Futuresight, 2007.

[Lemnear]

And Delve wasn't even a new mechanic - It's from Futuresight, 2007.

I am old enough and long enough in the game to consider a '07 print "new"

[Bosque]

I am old enough and long enough in the game to consider a '07 print "new"

Yeah, agree. Delve feels new. So do Planeswalkers.

From the last few blocks I remember flip cards, Delve, Prowess, Miracles, Scry and Devotion. There was some really bad BS that made 2/2 colorless creatures also, but I can't remember what it was called.

[Cire]

There was some really bad BS that made 2/2 colorless creatures also, but I can't remember what it was called.

I remember reading all the reasons why Morph was 3 mana for a 2/2 instead of 2 mana for a 1/1 but I keep forgetting them.

[Richard Cheese]

I think this quote from the article sums up the mentality under MaRo nicely:

As we seek out new design veins to explore, having visuals as a tool to help us has proven a necessity.

"Design" is just a commodity, and they're strip-mining the game to get every ounce they can out of it. The number of discarded garbage keywords left in their wake is of no concern as long as the design continues to flow.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

"Design" is just a commodity, and they're strip-mining the game to get every ounce they can out of it. The number of discarded garbage keywords left in their wake is of no concern as long as the design continues to flow.

My Dad said the same thing 15 years ago xD

They are doing fine... Some things have flaws but others are great (like limited).

The Lore got worse since idk Urza block.
The art feels better now then 5 years ago.
Mechanics are not even that bad... Or do you wish they make great stuff like rampage/bushido again?

So yah its not perfect, but as good as it gets!

[MorphBerlin]

How could a "removal tool" be better than (or even just up to par to) Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Abrupt Decay, Supreme Verdict, or Terminus? I think the game's more than fine in that regard.

Ok so most non-white decks are either running Bolt/P.Fire or Decay as removal suite. Dropping Prelate (uncounterable in most cases) on 1/2 shuts down those without even the chance to respond. That's pretty uninteravtive Magic for me especially considering stupid Mom is already in the deck. Decay is a overcosted removal for legacy, which makes up for that by being a general answer to most permanents and dogging counterbalance. Now we have a creature that easily blanks that and most other non-white removal. That's my problem basically. They could print something like a black Pyroclasm with -2/-2

[Aggro_zombies]

The number of discarded garbage keywords left in their wake is of no concern as long as the design continues to flow.

Uh, what?

They do bring back mechanics, you know. We just got out of a block that had madness and DFCs. The block before that had Allies and Landfall. Regardless of what you think of those mechanics, they are mechanics and they did return. They will bring back other recent mechanics that are popular - Surge and colorless matters tested well enough that they'll be coming back for sure, according to the article itself.

If this thread continues to be bitching about creatures / kicker / dumbing down the game / etc., I'm going to close it. We do this song and dance every fucking spoiler season, we don't need to do it again now.

[Darkenslight]

My Dad said the same thing 15 years ago xD

They are doing fine... Some things have flaws but others are great (like limited).

The Lore got worse since idk Urza block.
The art feels better now then 5 years ago.
Mechanics are not even that bad... Or do you wish they make great stuff like rampage/bushido again?

So yah its not perfect, but as good as it gets!

A functional reprint of Bushido and Rampage seem like a great idea, at some point.

[Deadinthestreet]

Expecting legacy power level cards in standard legal sets is a waste of time. Supplemental sets such as commander and conspiracy are the place where they can print cards good enough for eternal formats without warping not standard. Yeah there's always a few cars per set people try but just don't get your hopes up. Only more mid range creature base decks will benefit from creature power creep. Legacy is a slowly evolving creature whether we like it or not.

[Dice_Box]

Why do any of you care about what Wizards does with new mechanics? If they don't make it to Legacy you don't have to pay attention and if they do then we have a new card.

Let the judges bitch about it, they have a real reason for doing so, you all sound like fools.