Amonkhet, a new Plane for the next Block

[TsumiBand]

I think you apply both replacement effects in the order you want. Either way, Vizier -1 (0) then Snake +1 (1) or vice versa results in one counter.

Unless something in the rules comes out that if you hit zero counters then the effect fizzles. Then the order has to be snake vizier, and Devoted Druid doesn't work.

I feel like this is one of those times where the replacement effect is making this more or less like a cost you can't pay and therefore it doesn't end up doing anything.

There's a specific thing I'm thinking of that IIRC used to work but doesn't anymore - something about Leyline of the Void and that creature that says "put an exiled card to its owner's graveyard: get +2/+2 and trample" and so you used to be able to loop paying the cost with a single card and make an arbitrarily large creature. But I think they changed the rules regarding replacement effects in paying costs to keep this from working? Or maybe they changed a different subtlety of the rules and I've just forgotten. Suddenly I'm filled with doubt.

At any rate it's usually a bad idea to guess at interactions for cards that haven't come out so maybe it's best to wait until the prerelease and see if there's anything clarifying.

[Scott]

Bone Picker seems pretty assy you guys, how is it Black Delver if it's never coming down turn 1 for without terribad things happening to your tempo. I think it'll be interesting in Limited but that's probably it

Maybe I want to fill my black delver bird deck with Walking Ballistas and Shifting Walls so I feel, if even for just a moment, like WotC printed a black delver.

[bruizar]

@TsumiBad - I think the point of Bone Picker is more of a midgame creature, when you can cast it for 1 after you kill something your opponent controls or after they kill one of yours on your turn. That's why Deathtouch is important on it, it can trade with a 'Goyf or something if it needs to.

@Bruizar - that's a terrible list. For god's sake man, you don't even have Shadow of the Grave in there. I'll post a decent cycling list sometime, probably next week since I just found out I have to travel for work this weekend. On Easter. This is one of those times being salaried/no overtime really sucks.

lol, I'm sure it's terrible. You probably missed a lot of the interactions in the list.
Drake Haven and Ruthless Sniper work on discard, so Collective Brutality and Faerie Macabre trigger it as well. Oath of Ghouls turns Street Wraith into a dark confidant, except you get cycling triggers as well. Faerie Macabre blocks delver and ensures oath of ghouls is active. It's also pretty nice to have 4 maindeck graveyard removal cards that you can recur in a world of reanimator decks.

Shadow of the Grave is more of a combo card if you ask me, although I'm sure you can play it like a value glimpse as well. When you do find the time to show us a list, please keep fluctuator out of it. :) Shadow of the Grave could either be really good, or just another Treasure Hunt

[morgan_coke]

lol, I'm sure it's terrible. You probably missed a lot of the interactions in the list.
Drake Haven and Ruthless Sniper work on discard, so Collective Brutality and Faerie Macabre trigger it as well. Oath of Ghouls turns Street Wraith into a dark confidant, except you get cycling triggers as well. Faerie Macabre blocks delver and ensures oath of ghouls is active. It's also pretty nice to have 4 maindeck graveyard removal cards that you can recur in a world of reanimator decks.

Shadow of the Grave is more of a combo card if you ask me, although I'm sure you can play it like a value glimpse as well. When you do find the time to show us a list, please keep fluctuator out of it. :) Shadow of the Grave could either be really good, or just another Treasure Hunt

Yes, I noticed all those interactions. They're just not very good interactions for the most part.

[bruizar]

Yes, I noticed all those interactions. They're just not very good interactions for the most part.

What did you have in mind for Shadow of the Grave though?

The only way I see Shadow of the Grave working is by chaining Careful Studies, Faithless Lootings and Breakthroughs into Shadow of the Grave, at which point you better fucking resolve Shadow of the Grave or it's lights out..

[morgan_coke]

What did you have in mind for Shadow of the Grave though?

The only way I see Shadow of the Grave working is by chaining Careful Studies, Faithless Lootings and Breakthroughs into Shadow of the Grave, at which point you better fucking resolve Shadow of the Grave or it's lights out..

SotG is used midgame to refill your hand. Cycle, cycle, cycle, draw 3. Pretty much the same way Loam was used, except now it works at instant speed, and doesn't require your deck construction to be warped to accommodate it.

EDIT: the veiled serpent thingy with the reduced CC on instants/sorcieries in the yard probably deserves a spot too, given that you can just cycle some away in order to make it castable.

[Claymore]

Hmm, it seems cut and dry, but I'm not a rules expert. Can you point out why this doesn't work?

I was stating it more as a hypothetical, where the combo wouldn't work if the rules people came out and said that 'if you put 0 counters on something, it didn't happen'.

It seems like it should work, but we'll have to see what Wizards or judges say. I know Melira and Druid don't work, because Melira prevents you from paying the cost.

[Ronald Deuce]

Speaking of Naturalize clones:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/forsakethewordly.jpg

[rufus]

...
There's a specific thing I'm thinking of that IIRC used to work but doesn't anymore - something about Leyline of the Void and that creature that says "put an exiled card to its owner's graveyard: get +2/+2 and trample" and so you used to be able to loop paying the cost with a single card and make an arbitrarily large creature. But I think they changed the rules regarding replacement effects in paying costs to keep this from working? Or maybe they changed a different subtlety of the rules and I've just forgotten. Suddenly I'm filled with doubt.
...

Void Maw and Yawgmoth's Will is the classic. They changed it so that if leaving exile gets replaced by going to exile, it's a new object despite staying in the same zone.

[Cire]

Pretty sure Vizier of Remedies + Devoted Druid does work, but even so - is that good for anything? How about this silly list (it's basically Maverick minus SFM and Tax effects plus an infinite mana combo)

4 Vizier of Remedies
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
X GSZ findable Infinite mana wins
X non-GSZ findable Infinite mana wins
2 Devoted Druid
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Worldly Tutor
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforst
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas

[Ronald Deuce]

Ugh; AKH is starting to look like "Hipster Haircuts: the Set."

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/compulsoryrest.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/oashracultivator.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/stingingshot.jpg

[TsumiBand]

Void Maw and Yawgmoth's Will is the classic. They changed it so that if leaving exile gets replaced by going to exile, it's a new object despite staying in the same zone.

Ehh shit, that's what it was.

I mean, it's been established that Melira doesn't work with Devoted Druid, but that's a "can't" effect as opposed to a replacement effect. I think after googling a little bit, this actually does work, so Devoted Druid + that white card I can't scroll up to see anymore = bunches of mana, probably.

[Richard Cheese]

Bone Picker seems pretty assy you guys, how is it Black Delver if it's never coming down turn 1 for without terribad things happening to your tempo. I think it'll be interesting in Limited but that's probably it

I think you mean "sassy". I agree it's nowhere near as good or easy to abuse as Delver, but it's still relatively easy to abuse with all the cheap removal in this format and things like Therapy around. It dodges Decay and maybe Counterbalance, which seems pretty alright. It probably still won't see play in this format because there just isn't a deck that wants this kind of creature that isn't already running Delver, but I don't think it's trash.

[rufus]

Pretty sure Vizier of Remedies + Devoted Druid does work, but even so - is that good for anything? How about this silly list (it's basically Maverick minus SFM and Tax effects plus an infinite mana combo)...

Infinite mana combos are typically bad because they're 3-card combos. I doubt this one would be much different.

[danyul]

I think you mean "sassy". I agree it's nowhere near as good or easy to abuse as Delver, but it's still relatively easy to abuse with all the cheap removal in this format and things like Therapy around. It dodges Decay and maybe Counterbalance, which seems pretty alright. It probably still won't see play in this format because there just isn't a deck that wants this kind of creature that isn't already running Delver, but I don't think it's trash.

Call me crazy, but I'd run 2x alongside any deck that also uses Baleful Strix.

You can catch me losing to scrubs with 2x Black Delver in my list later this month.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Ugh; AKH is starting to look like "Hipster Haircuts: the Set."

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/compulsoryrest.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/oashracultivator.jpg
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/stingingshot.jpg

I'm also very sick of this. This is my least favorite set ever in terms of artwork. It emphasizes all the bad trends in magic art with CGI and things that look strangely smooth like the new Nissa.

[Jander78]

I was stating it more as a hypothetical, where the combo wouldn't work if the rules people came out and said that 'if you put 0 counters on something, it didn't happen'.

It seems like it should work, but we'll have to see what Wizards or judges say. I know Melira and Druid don't work, because Melira prevents you from paying the cost.

Ahh, okay. I agree 100%. I'm sure WoTC will find a way to "fix" this with a slight rules update.

Seems like it might not be a bad alt for 12-Post to generate mana, although pretty volatile.

[LOLWut]

I'm also very sick of this. This is my least favorite set ever in terms of artwork. It emphasizes all the bad trends in magic art.

I already feel like a manchild for playing pretend wizards, without me having to summon power rangers instead of real art.

[Begle1]

I'm also very sick of this. This is my least favorite set ever in terms of artwork. It emphasizes all the bad trends in magic art.

I agree.

I thought Theros was a huge missed opportunity by not having any "ancient Greek"-influenced art. I think most Disney's do okay at taking cues from art of the trope world they're playing around in. Lion King had some abstract-looking African backgrounds, for instance, and Hercules had some cool animated pottery dancing around and put "curly Greek swirls" all over everything.

But when Magic goes from trope world to trope world, they keep the art style exactly the same. They want things "to look like Magic cards", but unfortunately all that has meant recently is generic, albeit "high-quality", illustration. There are a few good art pieces, but they're good in spite of the art direction, which leaves very little space for artistic interpretation.

[Poron]

Speaking of Naturalize clones:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/forsakethewordly.jpg

this is good.

Wear/Tear has become 3 mana spell with the last rule change and this cycles..

it doesn't fuse though