[SCD] Sanctum Prelate

[Octopusman]

Sanctum Prelate

I wanted to put this conversation here even though a few decks are talking about this card right now.

Death and Taxes seems on board with this card, mostly to stop terminus or 1 CMC decks like Delver. XMaverick seems to be content with Teeg right now and they're still trying to figure out Thalia, Heretic Cathar which competes for this slot.

It seems to have been adopted as a 2-3 in the 75 for D&T with more players getting on board with the idea.
Is it that this card is desired on other formats that keeps it above $15?

This question aside, does this card have the ability to resurrect old lists or create new ones?

UW Landstill: Didn't this get pushed out due to the format just becoming fasters/critical mass of 1CMC spells that made it difficult to own the board prior to deploying the namesake card? If we turn off 1CMC, we lose Brainstorm, Pierce, Snare, Plow... it's not looking good.

UW Tempo: Again, we can't shut off 1CMC, but the deck seems pretty good in the current meta even if soft to Terminus. Good fit here due to prevalence of Miracles?

Deadguy Ale: Worth even looking at? This deck was loaded up on 2CMC spells. Can it get back in the meta with moxen and shut off 1CMC even if it means losing plow?

Esper Stoneblade: Deck isn't exactly gone, but what can Prelate do for it? Does it even care about Terminus?


If this card is going to be a key piece to a new deck, it's still only 4 copies. What else does what it does? Well, we can run Chalice of the void for now 8 cards that can shut off 1CMC non-creature spells. If you're running Chalice, odds are it is some kind of stompy variant which includes all of the downsides we all know and love such as inconsistency. Plus, since Prelate has WW, this is problamatic.
If the goal is to shut off non-creature spells at different CMC (burning wish, infernal tutor, abrupt decay at 2 for exmaple), how does that affect deckbuilding contraints? We have decks that basically start at 3CMC but they usually attack the 1CMC slots and not 2. With this in mind, does it make more sense to abandon sol lands in favor of moxen with no sol lands?
If, instead, it can be bumped up to "8" with the use of, say, Recruiter of the Guard, in what world is this ever fast enough and what does the shell look like? What colors best support/augment the spell denial game and has enough gas to close out a game as well? Something to be noted right off the bat is that there are creature answers to bombs (aka Reclamation Sage, Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg, Phyrexian Revoker, etc).

What non-creature spells are total game changers when they resolve and, if it can be shut off with Prelate:
1) Can Prelate be deployed in time for it to matter (with the help of permission, acceleration, tutoring, vial tempo, etc)?
2) How does it affect the deck-building constraints of the list running Prelate?
3) How does it change current lists and/or can we brew a list to attack popular game-changing non-creature spells across the meta and still be consistent/competitive?

As it stands, it seems like D&T is stoked to have a card that mainly says "Opponents can't play Terminus" but I fail to see how that's justifying the demand. Additionally, Prelate has more potential than just an answer to the most broken sweeper ever printed.

[Edit] Could be noted that the CMC to shut off might not always be the same number. Maybe it's 3 to shut off Show and Tell one round and then 4 to shut off Dread Return the next. Therefore, is the deck that is running it just a hatebear deck to avoid collateral damage in shutting off their own spells? This is definitely why we're seeing D&T picking up copies of this.

[Claymore]

I think it would be great in a resurrected Deadguy Ale shell, which would more so take on aspects of Death and Taxes with a black splash - Deadguy Taxes if you will. Similar list: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c..._and_taxes_31/

Of note, he uses it to win games against ANT (game 1) and Lands (game 1 and 2, Prelate on 2 and 1).

Deadguy Ale: Worth even looking at? This deck was loaded up on 2CMC spells. Can it get back in the meta with moxen and shut off 1CMC even if it means losing plow?

The situation with Prelate vs Swords is similar to that of Aggro Loam siding in Swords. If you get a Prelate down against the right deck on 1, you win flat out. If you don't draw Prelate, then having Swords is still pretty sweet. You can also utilize Prelate on other mana costs (2 for AD/Loam/Fires) that make it much more flexible.



For new decks, I could see a "Legacy Knightfall" that ports from modern to Legacy. Don't have a list, but it's a GWU Knight of the Reliquary combo deck that uses Retreat to Coralhelm to put all your lands into the graveyard in one turn to fire up Knight. Recent lists use Spell Queller to protect Knight from Abrupt Decay etc. I could see the list bumping up the blue count to include BS, Force, etc, and potentially Prelate - accelerated by GSZ->Dryad Arbor or Turn 1 Noble. Combo out or Bant tempo kill.

[Octopusman]

I think it would be great in a resurrected Deadguy Ale shell, which would more so take on aspects of Death and Taxes with a black splash - Deadguy Taxes if you will. Similar list: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c..._and_taxes_31/

Of note, he uses it to win games against ANT (game 1) and Lands (game 1 and 2, Prelate on 2 and 1).



The situation with Prelate vs Swords is similar to that of Aggro Loam siding in Swords. If you get a Prelate down against the right deck on 1, you win flat out. If you don't draw Prelate, then having Swords is still pretty sweet. You can also utilize Prelate on other mana costs (2 for AD/Loam/Fires) that make it much more flexible.



For new decks, I could see a "Legacy Knightfall" that ports from modern to Legacy. Don't have a list, but it's a GWU Knight of the Reliquary combo deck that uses Retreat to Coralhelm to put all your lands into the graveyard in one turn to fire up Knight. Recent lists use Spell Queller to protect Knight from Abrupt Decay etc. I could see the list bumping up the blue count to include BS, Force, etc, and potentially Prelate - accelerated by GSZ->Dryad Arbor or Turn 1 Noble. Combo out or Bant tempo kill.

Thanks for sharing that list. Good to see Sculler and Bob again. Prelate seems pretty strong against pfire and loam.
Against storm, that's great that he was able to get Prelate out in time. He can thank Wasteland for that.
Could 0 be named as well to shut off LED? (Probably a better number to name against shardless)

The legacy retreat to coralhelm was this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...hlight=retreat
No updates since January.

[slave]

I don't see Prelate as a card to win games against decks with lots of spells that cost 0 or 1. Storm and fast combo won't care much about this card I would suspect, all other decks that might be stopped cold will just have to start packing in varied removal to answer it, no different to Chalice really.

Personally, I see it mainly as a way to stop/slow combo firing off their pivotal pieces, like Charbelcher, Tendrils of Agony, Show n Tell, Sneak Attack, Doomsday, Painter's Servant etc. etc.

[Nouille]

I don't see Prelate as a card to win games against decks with lots of spells that cost 0 or 1. Storm and fast combo won't care much about this card I would suspect, all other decks that might be stopped cold will just have to start packing in varied removal to answer it, no different to Chalice really.

Personally, I see it mainly as a way to stop/slow combo firing off their pivotal pieces, like Charbelcher, Tendrils of Agony, Show n Tell, Sneak Attack, Doomsday, Painter's Servant etc. etc.

I faced multiples times d&t lists including sanctum prelate as a painter player. The MU was already hard before, now with sanctum, it's a pain if the d&t know how to play. BUT, I really feel the game is lost when sanctum is on 1 (if not big tournament = instant concede if there is no grindstone/welder in play, as my only out is jaya+painter-> takes several turns to land them, vulnerable to sword...), and I don't mind the prelate on 2 or more...

I am not an expert for other decks, but prelate seems also soooo much better on 1 or 0 than on 4 vs storm post side. Maybe it is worth-it on 3 vs pure show and tell lists (no sneak attack, no dream hall), but I still doubt it !

[Cire]

When testing with Thalia & Taxes - Chalice @ 1 into Prelate @ 0/2/4/6 depending on deck, was basically a two card win combo. The only issue is the mana base doesn't really allow for 4 of each.

[Octopusman]

I faced multiples times d&t lists including sanctum prelate as a painter player. The MU was already hard before, now with sanctum, it's a pain if the d&t know how to play. BUT, I really feel the game is lost when sanctum is on 1 (if not big tournament = instant concede if there is no grindstone/welder in play, as my only out is jaya+painter-> takes several turns to land them, vulnerable to sword...), and I don't mind this much the prelate on 2... (i can still weld the painter).

I am not an expert for other decks, but prelate seems also soooo much better on 1 or 0 than on 4 vs storm post side. Maybe it is worth-it on 3 vs pure show and tell lists (no sneak attack, no dream hall), but I still doubt it !

Just want to point out that you can still cast Painter's Servant with Prelate on 2, or do I misunderstand?

[Nouille]

Just want to point out that you can still cast Painter's Servant with Prelate on 2, or do I misunderstand?

Yup, my bad here ! Got confused...
Still, my post is valid : a lot of combo decks fear much more the chalice effect on 1 than on the wincondition card cmc... And painter just don't care about prelate on 2. Right.

[Finn]

Prelate coming out with Recruiter and in the set right after Thalia, Heretic Cathar feels like an embarrassment of riches, really. But there are now so many powerful cards in D+T that it is not entirely upside. We have to take something out to make the room.

For that reason, and because Recruiter of the Guard allows you to diversify your deck, few players are going to use four Prelates. I have two in the main atm, with one more in the side.

This does not mean that the power level of Sanctum Prelate is not sky high. It's just that Death and Taxes is not built around any one if it's control cards. (This is necessary so it can compete in a variety of metas.). It expects to limit it's opponent in a few different ways each game. Since Prelate does nothing against creatures, it is probably unwise to put all your eggs in that basket when the deck is going to have other tools. Finally, Death and Taxes does not seek or need to completely lock out an opponent. That is, a single Prelate is often all you need.

[(nameless one)]

What about in an Armageddon Stax style of deck?

It can be played early because they run Moxen. It's a Chalice 5-8. It's a threat.

[Echelon]

But there are now so many powerful cards in D+T that it is not entirely upside.

Translation: Dammit, we have too many good cards to choose from now.

Yeah, sucks to be you, lol. I don't think we can consider this even as a first world problem.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Translation: Dammit, we have too many good cards to choose from now.

Yeah, sucks to be you, lol. I don't think we can consider this even as a first world problem.

[Crimhead]

Translation: Dammit, we have too many good cards to choose from now.

Yeah, sucks to be you, lol. I don't think we can consider this even as a first world problem.

This is very definition of a first class (or first world) problem - encumbered by wealth.

[Fox]

Sanctum Prelate
Death and Taxes seems on board with this card, mostly to stop terminus or 1 CMC decks like Delver. XMaverick seems to be content with Teeg right now and they're still trying to figure out Thalia, Heretic Cathar which competes for this slot.

UW Landstill:
UW Tempo:
Deadguy Ale:

If the goal is to shut off non-creature spells at different CMC (burning wish, infernal tutor, abrupt decay at 2 for exmaple), how does that affect deckbuilding contraints?

What non-creature spells are total game changers when they resolve and, if it can be shut off with Prelate:
1) Can Prelate be deployed in time for it to matter (with the help of permission, acceleration, tutoring, vial tempo, etc)?
2) How does it affect the deck-building constraints of the list running Prelate?

Therefore, is the deck that is running it just a hatebear deck to avoid collateral damage in shutting off their own spells? This is definitely why we're seeing D&T picking up copies of this.

Just to point one thing out quickly: Prelate doesn't actually hit any of your own noncreature spells if you run Flickerwisp. When Mother of Runes is bad, Prelate is generally good.

UW Landstill isn't coming back b/c its main problem is that it dies to Goyf (which means 4x DRS as well). After this its next problem is miracles (both facing it, and choosing to play Tundra in a less-winning shell against the field). After those primary concerns you're talking about a anti-combo creature in a deck that has blue cards. UW Tempo gives the opponent life (StP) which also, unlike Lightning Bolt, can't target a combo player. We're talking about ~90% of Tundras being in miracles; Prelate won't change this...anything short of a ban probably won't change it either.

iirc Deadguy Ale is more about IoK/Thoughtseize and StP into spells (Hymn and Sinkhole), so double white is fairly....ambitious.

If you go heavy on white, you're looking at DnT staples like Mother -> Thalia. About the only direction that otherwise makes sense is Hierarch -> SFM -> KotR; so now you're in a GW or UGW deck that probably shouldn't run GSZ/Arbor. Maybe there's a deck there?

[Wilkin]

Just to point one thing out quickly: Prelate doesn't actually hit any of your own noncreature spells if you run Flickerwisp. When Mother of Runes is bad, Prelate is generally good.

UW Landstill isn't coming back b/c its main problem is that it dies to Goyf (which means 4x DRS as well). After this its next problem is miracles (both facing it, and choosing to play Tundra in a less-winning shell against the field). After those primary concerns you're talking about a anti-combo creature in a deck that has blue cards. UW Tempo gives the opponent life (StP) which also, unlike Lightning Bolt, can't target a combo player. We're talking about ~90% of Tundras being in miracles; Prelate won't change this...anything short of a ban probably won't change it either.

iirc Deadguy Ale is more about IoK/Thoughtseize and StP into spells (Hymn and Sinkhole), so double white is fairly....ambitious.

If you go heavy on white, you're looking at DnT staples like Mother -> Thalia. About the only direction that otherwise makes sense is Hierarch -> SFM -> KotR; so now you're in a GW or UGW deck that probably shouldn't run GSZ/Arbor. Maybe there's a deck there?

As someone who plays Deadguy all the time, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Double white is ok and not a huge problem as long as you don't run a playset of Prelates. I run one Prelate in the board and I've had ok success with it. I'm going to continue to run one, it's not as played as much as I thought it would be in Legacy but it's still a good card. The fact that it's a hate bear at 3 mana makes it prohibitive enough that it's not everywhere IMHO.

[Octopusman]

As someone who plays Deadguy all the time, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Double white is ok and not a huge problem as long as you don't run a playset of Prelates. I run one Prelate in the board and I've had ok success with it. I'm going to continue to run one, it's not as played as much as I thought it would be in Legacy but it's still a good card. The fact that it's a hate bear at 3 mana makes it prohibitive enough that it's not everywhere IMHO.

This is good feedback.
What do you typically name when using it in Deadguy? Is it 6?

Do we have decks using it to shut off 1CMC that don't run Chalice of the Void? Applications like that are more interesting than a monowhite Meddling Mage set to "Terminus". If that is really why Death and Taxes is using it, is having it do the beatdown seriously better than just running Nevermore to shut off Terminus or literally anything else while being harder to remove?

Personally, I'm looking to include it in a Boros agro control deck but I'm reluctant to post a theoretical list until some testing gets done. Hoping for an Emrakul for my birthday (Nahiri finisher).

[Wilkin]

This is good feedback.
What do you typically name when using it in Deadguy? Is it 6?

Do we have decks using it to shut off 1CMC that don't run Chalice of the Void? Applications like that are more interesting than a monowhite Meddling Mage set to "Terminus". If that is really why Death and Taxes is using it, is having it do the beatdown seriously better than just running Nevermore to shut off Terminus or literally anything else while being harder to remove?

Personally, I'm looking to include it in a Boros agro control deck but I'm reluctant to post a theoretical list until some testing gets done. Hoping for an Emrakul for my birthday (Nahiri finisher).

Against a Miracles opponent it's not always 6. Dependent on board state. I play Gaddock Teeg so if he's out and then I get to play Prelate I'd name 1. I may also name 4 if I think they have Jace. But I'd say usually it's 6 vs Miracles.

[Poron]

against Miracle just play Sword of War and Peace or Sword of Light and Shadow (for Abrupt Decay matchups as well) and Nahiri to watch them dig for artifact removals

[LeoCop 90]

In death and taxes, usually prelate names one against miracles. There are exceptions, of course, but given that usually you don't want to overextend and have 2 creatures, 3 maximum on board, it's more valuable to shut off half their deck than blank only terminus. If they have terminus, well, they have it, and it will probably just be a 2 for one. If they don't have it, though, they just lose with prelate on one.

[KobeBryan]

against Miracle just play Sword of War and Peace or Sword of Light and Shadow (for Abrupt Decay matchups as well) and Nahiri to watch them dig for artifact removals

Those two swords are probably the most lack luster swords out there.