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Thread: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

  1. #21

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Hes right...this deck does nothing special that another deck cant do better. Its that old bant deck problem being a jack of all trades. 50/50 match up with some really bad match ups but nothing that guarantees you a win
    No he's not right and that's an awful comparison because this deck isn't trying to be any of the decks he's comparing it to. The list in the OP is very clearly an Aggro Control deck. So comparing it to decks that it is absolutely nothing like doesn't make a lick of sense.
    By his logic.

    Food Chain is an awful deck because...

    It's a worse/slower combo deck than ANT
    It's a worse control deck than Miracles
    It's a worse aggro deck than Eldrazi and
    It's a worse prison deck than D&T

    And by this logic Food Chain shouldn't exist and shouldn't be top 8ing any tournaments.

    There is no point in comparing decks that are absolutely nothing like one another and saying that one is better than the other. That's not making a relevant point. That's just gibberish. Most of the decks he's claiming are clearly superior to the list in the OP don't even play Force of Will. They don't share the same game plan, same fundamental turn, same anything.


    And his comment...
    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    But hey, don't let me piss on your parade. Good luck to you and I'll stand corrected when you manage to reach the DtB section.
    was assinine at best.

  2. #22

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    was assinine at best.

  3. #23
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    No he's not right and that's an awful comparison because this deck isn't trying to be any of the decks he's comparing it to.
    I'm not trying to be a dick but that doesn't mean I can't be one, right? Even if somehow I myself wouldn't see it, I still can be a dick without trying to be.

    Take from that what you will.

    As for Food Chain - well, there's only 1 Food Chain deck, now is there? The deck is built around it entirely and apparently that card is strong enough to make up for any shortcomings it might have. You'll have to come up with a better example - it's not as if there are no other decks that play NO or that no other decks do BUG midrange.

    This deck is mostly confused when it comes to its identity and as a result waters down all the things it kinda sorta identifies with to worse versions of each of those. Don't worry, you'll see it eventually.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  4. #24
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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I'm not trying to be a dick but that doesn't mean I can't be one, right? Even if somehow I myself wouldn't see it, I still can be a dick without trying to be.

    Take from that what you will.

    As for Food Chain - well, there's only 1 Food Chain deck, now is there? The deck is built around it entirely and apparently that card is strong enough to make up for any shortcomings it might have. You'll have to come up with a better example - it's not as if there are no other decks that play NO or that no other decks do BUG midrange.

    This deck is mostly confused when it comes to its identity and as a result waters down all the things it kinda sorta identifies with to worse versions of each of those. Don't worry, you'll see it eventually.
    Bug opposition has done alright, but point taken.
    -rob

  5. #25

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    ok ok, whatever.

    The idea is to go Sultai for a deck that gains tempo and then capitalize through Natural Order.

    Ok! How does this deck can be better than Elves?
    Actually gaining tempo.
    Why not trying a deck that plays 3 great color for tempo then EOT into Dryad and play a Progenitus backed by Stifle, Thuoghtseize and many counters?

    Let's try a list that makes this possible.
    GSZ is out because it would require too much mana to be useful and we only really need a green creature + protection to make it there.

    Leovold, Deathrite and Delver are our most needed plan B

    4 Wasteland
    1 Dryad Arbor
    14 other lands
    4 Stifle
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Daze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Leovold
    4 Natural Order
    1 Progenitus

    SB
    1 Terastodon
    1 Ruric Thar
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Krosan Grip

  6. #26
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    So effectively you have 14 lands you want to use for mana (Wasteland is a spell, not a land and the same goes for Arbor) and you want to cast a 4 CMC card with some lightning rod manadorks as only extra mana-generators (which can be Bolted when you try to tap them for mana, by the way)..?

    Just let that one sink in for a minute.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  7. #27
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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    So effectively you have 14 lands you want to use for mana (Wasteland is a spell, not a land and the same goes for Arbor) and you want to cast a 4 CMC card with some lightning rod manadorks as only extra mana-generators (which can be Bolted when you try to tap them for mana, by the way)..?

    Just let that one sink in for a minute.
    Lets also not forget this guy has 5 green creatures to further his plan

  8. #28
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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Lets also not forget this guy has 5 green creatures to further his plan
    Well, that's not completely true. There's 8 green creatures (4 DRS, 1 Arbor, 3 Leovold) and I'm guessing there'll be 8 green fetches so that's 16. Theoretically that should be sufficient to have one to feed to NO whenever you need it. As long as it doesn't get killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  9. #29

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Anyway you put it, this deck is capable of

    - Sea, Shaman, pass (backed by Daze, Fow)
    - Wasteland, Delver, pass (backed by Stifle, Daze, Pierce)
    - from here onwards you can disrupt his game, play Thoughtseize, FoW, Leovold and eventually seal everything with a Natural Order.

    Seen that Progenitus pitches to FoW I would go 3x Natural Order

  10. #30
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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    I think this deck can be viable. I remember my friend playing a successgul list somewhere after the Mental Misstep ban and the spoils of Delver and Decay. BUG was a fine choice for his strategy as he wanted to play all of his disruption and smaller beats pre-NO and Decay solved most of his problems. He played Shardless Agent over GSZ. Shardless was one of his best NO fodders if not the best. Cliques were very important in his gameplan for cycling Prog/Tera, as an alternate win condition, and to counter Terminus. Think of it as a Shardless BUG deck with a combo finish instead of AV grind. I remember the deck being difficult to play against for my Delver decks and even Nic Fit.

    If you want to keep GSZ, I think Eternal Witness is a fine pseudo Snapcaster. You just have to plays cards that really shine with Witness rather than Snap such as non-instand/sorcery cards you want to bring back from your GY. A threat package consisting of Nobles, Goyfs, Cliques and GSZ with a NO package is nothing to laugh at...
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  11. #31

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Pernicious Deed and Liliana would be fantastic here. Deed wipes the board. Liliana buys time and also gives you another way to dump extra Progenitus in your hand.

    So why not play an Eva Green variant to abuse Natural Order.


    4 Wasteland
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Bayou
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    1 Forest
    1 Dryad Arbor

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Progenitus

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    4 Natural Order

    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Pernicious Deed

  12. #32
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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    I've done some work on the NO RUG deck after it got out of favour when Misstep got banned.
    You might want to check that thread. Especially this page:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...der-RUG/page19
    On that page we discuss white and black splash as well, but the UG base is more important anyway.

    The guys here saying it's a worse tempo deck than BUG and so on aren't wrong.
    But they're missing an essential point: we have a 10/10 Proggie for four mana.
    That fact alose makes you suddenly able to win otherwise lost games.

    My thoughts:
    - Edric isn't good in this deck. He needs a different approach to work.
    - Leovold looks fine at first glance, but a 3/3 for three mana isn't great.
    - You must to choose where you focus on. In the above link you'll find my analysis, and I concluded I wanted to optimize plan B (Goyf beatdown) and plan A (Natural Order), so I tuned my lists to support those ideas best. That lead to something like this:

    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Noble Hierarch/Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3-4 Vendilion Clique
    1 Progenitus /13-14

    4 Brainstorm
    2-4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    3-4 Daze
    0-3 Spell Pierce
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    4 Natural Order
    4 Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares/Abrupt Decay
    0-1 Sylvan Library
    0-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    0-2 Fire // Ice (or other removal) /27-29

    3-4 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island/Tundra/Underground Sea
    1 Taiga/Savannah/Bayou
    1 Forest
    1 Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Wooded Foothills/Windswept Heath/Verdant Catacombs
    2 Scalding Tarn/Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta /18-19

    Plan A: Force, Daze and Clique harrass your opponent while you set up Natural Order.
    Plan B: Slam Goyfs and use the support to protect them.
    Both plans are well supported and we have enough blue for Force (which is often an issue in NOPRO decks).
    I intentionally did NOT use any durdly Zenith toolbox targets. Zenith is mana accell or a Goyf. That's it.
    I did, however, usually play one or two sideboard Zenith targets. Stuff like Reclamation Sage or Scooze.

    Hope this helps.

  13. #33

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    I would rather use Mongoose than Goyf.

    Better against Miracle (which is still 30% of the format) and Goyf is not big enough to fight Eldrazi anyway

  14. #34
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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    you could use 3 mongoose and 1 goyf (b/c of gsz) mongoose also protects itself until you have a natural order.
    -rob

  15. #35

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    4 Mongoose . Now I am in love with it.

    Occasionally SB Golgari Charm will save your dorks from dying in chump blocks vs Eldrazi

    Definitly viable imho.

    Shardless Agent, also pitches to both FoW and Natural Order while providing both card advantage and a chump blocker for Eldrazi.

  16. #36
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    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Quote Originally Posted by Poron View Post
    4 Mongoose . Now I am in love with it.

    Occasionally SB Golgari Charm will save your dorks from dying in chump blocks vs Eldrazi

    Definitly viable imho.

    Shardless Agent, also pitches to both FoW and Natural Order while providing both card advantage and a chump blocker for Eldrazi.
    goose is a great idea.

    any fair decks, you can use prog to win

    control decks you have goose to f them up.

  17. #37

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    against Miracle I would just side out No-Prog and add the full playset of Abrupt Decays

  18. #38

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    let's give it another try

    4 Shaman
    4 Mongoose
    1 Noble Hierarch
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Tarmogoyf
    1 Dryad Arbor
    3 Shardless Agent

    3 Natural Order
    1 Progenitus

    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    1 Sylvan Library
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Ancestral Vision (you play Shardless, you play Vision. Additionally, it pitches to FoW)
    2 Abrupt Decays

    18 lands

    SB
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    3 Flusterstorm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Faerie Macabre
    4 Thoughtseize/Duress
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Reclamation Sage (more)

    oh yeah, a couple of Leovold in the main

  19. #39

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    Daze without wasteland and stifle is pretty worthless.

    I like the rock approach clark posted earlier...

    But I would probably play 4 Shardless Agent instead of the Leovolds and Eternal Witness and make room for some Ancestral vision.

  20. #40

    Re: The Natural Order of Trest (BUG Natural Order)

    So would I.. Leovold is not so great.

    Ancestral Vision
    Shardless
    Decay
    Mongoose

    are all much better

    This is "miracle improved" version of Shardless Sultai with NO combo.
    We only lose Strix to them (which is great against Eldrazi), but it's always playable 4x in the SB against both Eldrazi and Lands

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