http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...-october-2016/
Enjoy!
I know a lot of you are hoping for more legacy content, so please reply to my question at the end with thoughts and suggestions
Thank you :)
Good read
Great article as usual, thanks! Looking forward to more. Knowing your role and when to switch gears is a subject I've been thinking about writing for a while, would be great to see it done.
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Good to see you back, and thanks for crunching the numbers.
You should give Aluren a whirl. The deck is very strong. I expect it to be a bigger player now that there is a budget version. Also, I know you're aware of the Northwest anomaly -- three consecutive 1K wins is unheard of -- but I think it would be interesting to find out more about why certain decks are very popular in a given city or Legacy scene. Japan's tournament results, for instance, are often very different from European results, and the European results have always been pretty different from the regular Star City circuit.
I think "regional bias" can be explained mostly through network effects. Anecdotally, I got into Delver because Dan Signorini kept crushing all comers with BUG Delver, so that led me to pick-up the deck. I'm sure a similar effect is occurring in Seattle due to Martin's finishes.
Bob, with all respect, but to me it seems a bit awkward that the numbers of Miracles in T8 and its metagame share rose (because of new, powerful printings for the deck and post-delve metagame shifts) and you claim the deck is fine despite all these numbers, because Miracles can now kill faster and more reliable than ever before, thus not going to time.
How make improved killcons a deck more fair/balanced in a metagame?
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That one irked me as well. The Miracles part feels weakly-written, in a "Move along, nothing suspicious to see here!"-kind of way.
"Miracles outclasses the rest of the field, but rejoice! At least it's less likely going to time now!"
To go a bit more into detail what feels wrong with said section:
Furthermore, I think there are enough strategies and cards currently seeing play that are strong against the archetype, and I do not feel as behind against it with Delver as I used to.So your definition of "enough" is exactly one tier 1 deck it's unfavored against while it's favored/about even against the rest of the Tier field.Out of the tier decks, Predict Miracles is favored against Pyromancer Grixis Delver, Shardless BUG, Lands, and Elves. It is close to even against ANT, Death and Taxes, Sneak and Show, UR Delver, and Infect. It is unfavored against Eldrazi.And before some people make claims about some magical Tier 2/3 Miracle slayer lists - those do not exist. Especially after Mentor being adopted, taking away game from stuff like 12 Post. Otherwise, its almost 2 years of utter domination would have been dented by now, but there's no end in sight.
The only reasons not to play Miracles right now are either being bored by the deck or not willing to shell out money for it. Everything else is gimping yourself.
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? First you say there are enough cards that are good against Miracles, but then you state that Miracles has all the tools to beat said cards anyway.Going back to Miracles, one of the key strengths of the deck lies in its flexibility. It has access to Blood Moon, Engineered Explosives, Wear // Tear and a variety of other tools to beat any of the cards that are good against it.
Last edited by Barook; 10-12-2016 at 11:56 PM.
You guys are being too hard on him. There are some very good reasons that miracles is the best deck. Bob is [ED - bad autocorrect] simply telling us why. He is not the one taking a strong position on if it is too good or not. If you are seeing an argument, you are reading the argument into his words yourself.
I thought it was a particularly helpful article. The STATE OF LEGACY articles are easy to screw up, and Bob did not.
Last edited by Finn; 10-13-2016 at 04:16 PM.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
From everything I know, Bob really hates Miracles. So anyone trying to read him being fine with it into the article is probably seeing things that aren't really there.
At least for me, when in was reading those lines about Miracles being somewhat ok, I just understood them as appeasement of the Pro-Miracle trolls.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
You write, and I agree, that Grixis Delver is unfavored vs. Miracles. It seems like most of the pilots have decided to give up on even bothering to fight it too much by cutting Abrupt Decay and just shoring up every other matchup. It hasn't seemed to impact its metagame share too much.
I think his point is that Miracles is a fair deck and the ONLY reason it would need a ban is if it was consistently making tournaments run late, with an improved kill con this is not a problem. I think his follow up about skill level is important is the argument, if a deck is super powerful but also difficult to pilot to optimal levels than this is fine and good.
Nice article! From where u get your data? Is this analysis only about US Meta or worldwide, just not really clear 4 me.
Any statements, in regards to if a deck is fine (or not) as well as countermeasures, in a metagame analysis, maybe should be dodged like the devil does holy water. Barook pointed to the parts which were unfortunately put
Just leave this thread. This is not the B&R & Troll thread
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Please everyone who doesn't agree that Miracles should be banned, leave the thread. Also can mods help us out here and rename the thread "Ban Miracles"?
Excuse me? You are the one trolling about B&R.
Legacy is at an all time high for player skill being the biggest factor in tournament results, this is fantastic, if you are losing consistently, you need to improve your skill and knowledge of the format.
This statement is shockingly obtuse. 2 of the fastest responders in this thread were the most verbose anti-miracles whiners on the Source. Literally any thread referencing metagame share and miracles is like chumming for sharks for them, but it's the pro-miracle trolls who need appeasement?
What if, if you want to beat a terminus deck, you stop playing a deck built on attacking 7 times or casting empty the wardens on turn 1?
Great success!
Someone should write a legacy metagame complaining analysis to help us better analyze the growth of Miracles complaining and to talk about the hot new tech in Miracles complaining.
The article is not focused on Miracles, I don't understand why the discussion is about Miracles.
Play: 12 Post, Eldrazi Aggro, Goblins, Merfolk with Chalice, or Shardless BUG if you want to defeat Miracles. That's a long list, just pick one and move on.
Very naive reading, obviously the article is about Miracles. For those of us smart enough to read between the lines, it's incredibly obvious what message Bob was trying to send:
For once, I am okay with the current state of Legacy and would advocate for no changes to the Banned and Restricted list. Yes, Miracles is likely the best deck.But due to the recent adoption of Monastery Mentor, tournaments have generally ended on time without too much delay.
No need to be insecure about it. There's tons of people out there who will happily throw around the empty "always a best deck", "skill-intensive", "just adapt" and derail any further discussion.
ithe pro-miracle trolls who need appeasement?Not sure about your choice of words, but following the essence of what you said: q.e.d.2 of the fastest responders in this thread were the most verbose anti-miracles whiners on the Source.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
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