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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #821

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I'm having trouble only against tempodecks, with stifles and daze.. its incredible hard to beat RUG Delver and Grixis.
    this is strange, i alway found RUG delver a great MU. almost 70% win rate i guess
    i always played classic non-instigator list and canadian never been a problem.is definitely the MU i know better and probabily this also matter.
    MWM is great here for chump tarmo. try to overwelm them with tokens and avoid to be dazed, stingscourger bouncing a blocker is great some times to go for the lethal attack. trading lackey for t1 delver or goose is fine imho.
    cheat with vial is good to have them waste stifle sometimes (edit: I mean bluffing, activating vial in every eot). making pressure on their 6 coloured lands is also important.

    Edit: Sometimes you have to deal with stifle playing two abilities per turn in order to save the second one. The opposite for daze: play first the most important spell and try to not tap out. You can understand what they have in hand many times tnx to their moves since is a very linear deck.

    grixis not as easy as rug bu also a not bad MU
    Last edited by menph; 11-08-2017 at 03:08 AM.

  2. #822

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I can see the winstigator list having trouble with RUG since it's important to attack their green mana so they can't play goyf and geese. Rishadan port is great for that. You could try and get spicy with surgical on their trops. If it's timely then you are in a really good spot. Also, they typically only run 4-7 main board removal, usually 4 bolts and a forked bolt, maybe dismember. If you can get a couple of those wasted you can stick a krenko and win from there. I love chirurgeon in this match up for this kind of game plan.

    Grixis is similar on the number of removal they see in a game. A curve of Chirurgeon, MWM, Lord, Krenko will win that game one very easily if Chirurgeon isn't killed. I guess in winstigator there are more targets that they want to bolt, with the 8 lackeys so leverage that, count their removal and jam a krenko.

    On the topic of Chalice, I've been wanting to cut my number down and you bring up a very good point that I want to bring them in for matchups where I also want tarfire and it feels pretty bad. I bring it in against elves, delver, and storm. and I'm thinking I should change that around to bring in more impactful pieces vs elves and delver and then have room for mindbreak traps for storm.

  3. #823
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Traditional RUG Delver was a much easier matchup than the Jonathan Alexander neo "Canadian" lists with Loam/Barb Ring/Hooting Mandrills so I can understand struggling with it.

    You just have to do what you do against all Delver decks. Put them to the test when on the play and try and play control while dancing around Daze/Stifle as much as you can on the draw. Obviously this is much easier said than done but keep that plan in mind when evaluating opening hands and sequencing.
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    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
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    I was actually kinda thinking the opposite, and wondering what it would be like to play in the "Megadeus and Stevestamops Presents: The Nedleeds Memorial Tournament" (banlist: just the regular legacy one, except survival is legal and all blue cards are not).

  4. #824

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Thx for all ur help

    now, whats the best sideboard against this field???

    ArcheType Percentage
    Death and Taxes 9,83
    Sneak and Show 9,83
    Stoneblade 8,03
    Grixisdelver 5,78
    Burn 5,48
    Reanimator 5,20
    UR Delver 4,62
    Eldrazi 4,62
    Infect 4,05
    Miracles 3,47
    Elves 3,47
    Merfolks 3,47
    Dragonstomp 2,89
    Lands 2,31
    RUG Delver 2,31
    Czech Pile 2,31
    Storm 1,16
    Belcher 1,16
    Dredge 1,16

    i have this pool of cards:

    Composição do side:
    4x Thorn of Amethyst
    4x Abrade
    4x Relic of Progenitus
    4x Pithing Needle
    3x Mindbreak trap
    3x Blood Moon
    3x Surgical Extraction
    3x Pyrokinesis
    3x Sudden Demise
    3x Grafdigger's Cage
    2x Pyroblast
    2x Chalice of the Void
    1x Goblin Sharpshooter
    1x Tuktuk Scrapper
    1x Stingscourger

    Its a monoR goblins, am I missing any important card??

  5. #825
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Played the following list at my LGS tonight:

    R/b Vial Goblins

    Lands (22)
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Badlands
    6 Mountain
    4 Wasteland

    Creatures (29)
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Mogg War Marshal
    2 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    4 Goblin Warchief
    2 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss

    Spells (9)
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Tarfire
    1 Warren Weirding

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Tuktuk Scrapper
    2 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Stingscourger

    I wasn't sure if I should have cut to 1 Chieftan for the 2nd Weirding before the event, and I'm still not sure if I want the 2nd Chieftan or the 2nd Weirding.

    Anyway, I went a mediocre 2-2.

    R1, BR Discard (random brew), 2-0
    He was playing a bunch of discard spells and enchantments that cause loss of life. I ran over him in both games.

    R2, Eureka Tell, 0-2
    Game one, he turn two's Griselbrand . I put Ringleader in off of Show and Tell, but don't hit the 1-of Weirding. In game two, I have to mull to 6, but my double Therapy hand wrecked him. Only problem is, my hand is slow and I can't really apply any pressure. I'm able to eventually get a Warchief and Piledriver into play by around turn 6, but then he puts an Emrakul into play and I can't topdeck the Matron, Weirding, or Stingscourger I need to salvage the game.

    R3, UGw Infect, 1-2
    In game one, I keep a greedy 7 that has one land, because it has both a Lackey and a Vial. My turn one Vial gets Dazed, he has blockers for the turn 2 Lackey, but he kills me on his turn three anyway so it doesn't even matter. In game two, I'm able to completely control the board with Tarfire's, Incinerator's, and Wasteland on Inkmoth. I did tutor for a Sharpshooter and put it into off Vial, but he had the Swords to Plowshares. Didn't really matter though, as I had a decent clock to close it out while he had an empty board. Game three was really close, but I was one turn too slow. I had a Warchief in play and could put a Sharpshooter into play the following turn, but he was able to get me with a Blighted Agent pumped with an Invigorate and Berserk. I misplayed this one... I wasted a Tarfire on turn one to kill a Glistener Elf EOT, despite having a turn two Mogg War Marshal, and then died to a Blighted Agent later. Not sure if it would have mattered in the long run, but if I had saved the Tarfire for Blighted Agent, the game may have been different. Live and learn.

    R4, Burn, 2-0
    Game one he has 3 Price of Progress to my entirely basic Mountain manabase. I'm able to overrun him. In game two, it is really close. He's able to get me down to 5, but I have Warchief in play and my hardcast Ringleader into cycle Gempalm both dodge and kill his Eidolon, and I'm able to close it out before he can draw any more burn spells. I played around Fireblast here, and chose a line that killed him one turn later than I could have otherwise (he had played another Eidolon, and it would have dropped me to 3 life). He didn't have it, but it didn't matter either way.

    Deck was super fun to play and felt really streamlined. If I were to play it again, I'd probably run it back with the same 75, although I'm still on the fence with the Weirding/Chieftan split. I kinda wish I could run more Piledrivers too, but there just isn't enough room.
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  6. #826

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    R2, Eureka Tell, 0-2
    Game one, he turn two's Griselbrand . I put Ringleader in off of Show and Tell, but don't hit the 1-of Weirding. In game two, I have to mull to 6, but my double Therapy hand wrecked him. Only problem is, my hand is slow and I can't really apply any pressure. I'm able to eventually get a Warchief and Piledriver into play by around turn 6, but then he puts an Emrakul into play and I can't topdeck the Matron, Weirding, or Stingscourger I need to salvage the game.
    If only there was some kind of 3 drop goblin that attacks for 6+ by itself and also makes tokens so you can flashback therapy if you want.
    I'm not trying to be snarky, I don't understand this mantra of "6 LORDS ARE ESSENTIAL, FAST CLOCK = PILEDRIVER" when I (and other people too, apparently) keep finding situations where that philosophy doesn't seem to be working.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 11-10-2017 at 04:10 AM.

  7. #827
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I had plenty of hands with fast clocks in other matchups, I just kept a weak 6 because it had two Therapy in that game.

    I opted for 6 haste lords to increase the consistency of having one on the board so that I could Matron for Krenko to finish. I just didn't get to play against any fair matchups, so that gameplan was worse than just going for quick Piledriver beats.

    If you're trying to suggest Goblin Rabblemaster instead of the extra haste lords, I'm not sure I agree. Against combo, it's certainly great, but against fair decks, I don't want to be forced to suicide my board when the opponent has bigger blockers.

    I would never run less than 4 Warchief, the cost reduction is a critical element of the deck. Chieftan was great the few times I saw him, although 6 haste lords may be one too many.

    Regardless, my list is way beyond conventional anyway. No Cavern, no Ports, no toolbox. Aside from a few games where I flooded out on lands, the list felt great though. I also played some for-fun games after the event, going 2-1 against Eldrazi and 0-2 against Aluren, all preboard games.

    The deck was fun, and I figured I'd share my experiences. If you don't like my list, that's fine. I haven't played Goblins since 2008, and I wouldn't play it at a large event, so my list is irrelevant anyway.
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  8. #828

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Hello again

    I'm in high training to compete in the nationals this month... I need some help on Surgical Extraction. This is the most played card in Legacy's SB... so what r the best target on each match?? which match should i side in this card with another function without being graveyard hate? should i side in only for value??

    I mean, how to punish non-graveyard decks with surgical?

    I know thats a great card to out skill snapcaster and remove troubles with wasteland/pyroblast help.
    Last edited by Sagratho; 11-10-2017 at 06:18 PM.

  9. #829
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    If only there was some kind of 3 drop goblin that attacks for 6+ by itself and also makes tokens so you can flashback therapy if you want.
    I'm not trying to be snarky, I don't understand this mantra of "6 LORDS ARE ESSENTIAL, FAST CLOCK = PILEDRIVER" when I (and other people too, apparently) keep finding situations where that philosophy doesn't seem to be working.
    I ordered some Rabblemasters today. I am not convinced that they're the answer the deck needs at this point, but they provide beats + board position in a way that no other Goblin really does.

    I'm also a little interested in Bushwacker as a way to attack into DRS T2. I feel like T1 is fine, T3 onward is fine. T2 continues to be the weak spot in our game. It's made worse by the fact that every other deck seems to really explode on T2.

  10. #830

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagratho View Post
    Hello again

    I'm in high training to compete in the nationals this month... I need some help on Surgical Extraction. This is the most played card in Legacy's SB... so what r the best target on each match?? which match should i side in this card with another function without being graveyard hate? should i side in only for value??

    I mean, how to punish non-graveyard decks with surgical?

    I know thats a great card to out skill snapcaster and remove troubles with wasteland/pyroblast help.
    Surgical is mostly for graveyard hate, as a nice card that hits reanimator and Lands. It's also strong against the Punishing Fire decks. Omni-Tell/Sneak+Show sometimes plays some number of Intuition, and when they grab 3 emrakuls, you exile all of them with the trigger on the stack.

    I wouldn't bring surgical in for "just value", you want a specific card/cards in mind as your target.

  11. #831

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I ordered some Rabblemasters today. I am not convinced that they're the answer the deck needs at this point, but they provide beats + board position in a way that no other Goblin really does.

    I'm also a little interested in Bushwacker as a way to attack into DRS T2. I feel like T1 is fine, T3 onward is fine. T2 continues to be the weak spot in our game. It's made worse by the fact that every other deck seems to really explode on T2.
    If you're worried about nothing to do T2, you should rethink Port. Port essentially adds 4 2-drops to the deck, by letting you trade your T2 for most of theirs. It's not perfect, but it might be the best we get.

  12. #832
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Has anyone tried Mogg Raider recently? I know it's not a super exciting card, but it has all the sack-outlet benefits or Skirk Prospector and Chirgureon, but it can also be used on a goblin heavy board to protect against Bolts and combat damage. You could also use it to make a Lackey survive a DRS block... I know it's not a huge benefit but it might be a decent addition.... Just spit-balling here, but it might be good in a build with lots of tokens, which to me means lots of Kenkos and hate lords.

    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    2 Mogg Raider
    2 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Tarfire
    3 Gempalm
    4 Matron
    4 Ringleader
    4 Chieftain
    2 Warchief
    3 Kenko
    1 Tuktuk
    1 Stingscourger
    22 lands

  13. #833

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Has anyone tried Mogg Raider recently? I know it's not a super exciting card, but it has all the sack-outlet benefits or Skirk Prospector and Chirgureon, but it can also be used on a goblin heavy board to protect against Bolts and combat damage. You could also use it to make a Lackey survive a DRS block... I know it's not a huge benefit but it might be a decent addition.... Just spit-balling here, but it might be good in a build with lots of tokens, which to me means lots of Kenkos and hate lords.

    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    2 Mogg Raider
    2 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Tarfire
    3 Gempalm
    4 Matron
    4 Ringleader
    4 Chieftain
    2 Warchief
    3 Kenko
    1 Tuktuk
    1 Stingscourger
    22 lands
    You'd have to sac 3 goblins to save one from a bolt. Chirugeon only means you have to sac one. The only thing I see it doing that the other sac goblins don't do is push through some damage. Not where I'd want to be.

  14. #834
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I'm also a little interested in Bushwacker as a way to attack into DRS T2. I feel like T1 is fine, T3 onward is fine. T2 continues to be the weak spot in our game. It's made worse by the fact that every other deck seems to really explode on T2.
    Out T2 is just fine.

    See:

    T1 -> Land + Vial
    T2 -> Port + tick Vial, Port opponent's mana at his upkeep -> Vial in Lackey EOT
    T3 -> Warchief + Vial in MWM or Piledriver

    or

    T1 -> Land + Lackey
    T2 -> Port + play daze-proof Tarfire DRS/Delver/YP/Mom/SFM -> Lackey connects into stuff
    T3 -> Cast Gobs

    or

    After sideboarding (e.g. against Combo)
    T1 -> Land + Vial
    T2 -> Plateau + Thalia -> tick Vial -> Vial in Lackey EOT
    T3 -> Port from there

    Without Port or Vial or Lackey, just cast a Mogg War Marshall T2, or Sparksmith, or Tarfire, it's still real fine. With 30 creatures main deck, we can afford to take some Daze, STP or Bolts.

    In my opinion, T2 is not the problem with Goblins, but our opening hand. As we cannot sculpt our hand with cantrips spells, we have to take our opening hand seriously and consider mulliganing more than blue decks do.

  15. #835
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I would max out on Mogg War Marshal before considering other options like Bushwhacker. MWM does everything you want from a 2-drop. It puts two goblin bodies on the board. It's resilient to spot removal, it makes Incinerator better, it makes Piledriver/Chieftan/Krenko better, it makes Therapy better... I'm not sure why people are running less than the full playset.

    In the green splash, you have Tin-street Hooligan. In black, you have Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and Warren Weirding. There's also Goblin Tinkerer in mono red, along with Instigator and the other Grenzo... so there are definitely options for increasing the 2cc range.

    I think I'm going to cut a Chieftan for the 2nd Weirding next time I play the deck.
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Has anyone tried Mogg Raider recently? I know it's not a super exciting card, but it has all the sack-outlet benefits or Skirk Prospector and Chirgureon, but it can also be used on a goblin heavy board to protect against Bolts and combat damage. You could also use it to make a Lackey survive a DRS block... I know it's not a huge benefit but it might be a decent addition.... Just spit-balling here, but it might be good in a build with lots of tokens, which to me means lots of Kenkos and hate lords.
    I think I'll give Raider / Sledder a shot. I don't know why I forgot about that card, I run 8 in my Pauper deck. That sounds exactly like the thing to push past board stalls. I'm not a huge fan of getting blown out via kill spell though, but we'll see.

    Also, I still read this every day, to every other day, just haven't had anything to contribute for quite some time. Legacy stopped nearly in it's entirety in my area. But there is an event this coming Saturday I'm considering, and my Guantlet is severely out of date. Sounds like the perfect time to jump back in.

    I think this supports a 3 to 4 Mogg War Marshal build, and actually makes me consider Rabblemaster again, as I'll have more sac sources in the main. I'll ponder on it.
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  17. #837

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    I think I'll give Raider / Sledder a shot. I don't know why I forgot about that card, I run 8 in my Pauper deck. That sounds exactly like the thing to push past board stalls. I'm not a huge fan of getting blown out via kill spell though, but we'll see.

    Also, I still read this every day, to every other day, just haven't had anything to contribute for quite some time. Legacy stopped nearly in it's entirety in my area. But there is an event this coming Saturday I'm considering, and my Guantlet is severely out of date. Sounds like the perfect time to jump back in.

    I think this supports a 3 to 4 Mogg War Marshal build, and actually makes me consider Rabblemaster again, as I'll have more sac sources in the main. I'll ponder on it.
    The real problem with this deck is living long enough to grind out games. Don't really know why you prefer trading your board for some advantage (like mogg rider/rabblemaster). If you need to smash out a big creature just put another copy of gempalm or any removal in your deck.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlock96 View Post
    The real problem with this deck is living long enough to grind out games. Don't really know why you prefer trading your board for some advantage (like mogg rider/rabblemaster). If you need to smash out a big creature just put another copy of gempalm or any removal in your deck.
    The thing usually holding me back is just Deathrite Shaman. Additionally there are extra alpha strikes available to those who have a Mogg Raider.

    I have no idea if it's better, I just simply want to test it.
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  19. #839
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    The thing usually holding me back is just Deathrite Shaman. Additionally there are extra alpha strikes available to those who have a Mogg Raider.

    I have no idea if it's better, I just simply want to test it.
    One of the reasons why I play the full playset of Tarfire, and why I'm considering moving up to 2 Warren Weirding. Although, to be fair, there are more reasons than just DRS that justifies that configuration.

    I'd much rather rely on removal than effects like Bushwhacker or Mogg Raider, though.
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    One of the reasons why I play the full playset of Tarfire, and why I'm considering moving up to 2 Warren Weirding. Although, to be fair, there are more reasons than just DRS that justifies that configuration.

    I'd much rather rely on removal than effects like Bushwhacker or Mogg Raider, though.
    Sure, and I bet I'll end up on the same conclusion. I'm an advocate of 4 Tarfire normally.
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