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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #1461
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin from Croatia View Post
    Has someone tried umezawas jitte in winstigator list?
    Rancor seems better than Jitte in a Winstigator list, but I don't see people trying that either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  2. #1462

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    How do you guys sideboard against Miracles? How do you approach the matchup?
    Just wanting to see if I'm on the right page

  3. #1463
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by r497 View Post
    How do you guys sideboard against Miracles? How do you approach the matchup?
    Just wanting to see if I'm on the right page
    Sideboarding vs Miracles should be kept to a minimum. You want max value from your Ringleader's, so bringing in too many non-Goblins is bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  4. #1464

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Ive been playing goblins a lot online recently and heres my 2 cents on some things ive been seeing in this forum.
    Some of my favorite s.b. cards:
    Graffdiggers cage. Its just been the graveyard hate thats worked the best for me. I like it better then some other options because its a permanent and the decks i need it against dont usually seem to be able to remove it once i play it. I use it in all of my side boards. Not just goblins.

    Ensnaring bridge. Also a card i use in all of my side boards. It helps with so many decks..dark depths, reanimater, elderazi, and my favorite magic move ever is to play ensnaring bridge when my opponent plays show and tell. You can milk the bridge's effect pretty well to let your creatures attack.

    Eidolon of the great revel. Hes not a goblin...so what? This is the card to play against storm and combo. Were playing red, might as well use the best storm/ combo hate card in magic, especially if you're running mono red. Its nice because he can attack, but sometimes i use pyrostatic pillar instead, because the pillar is harder to get rid of.

    And the ongoing conversation about goblin piledriver. Im a fan. I run 3. His protection from blue is nice, lots of decks run blue, online at least. But the best thing about the piledriver is the 2 legion loyalist i run. People aren't scared of the piledriver. He gets chump blocked while my lackey or krenko gets hit with removal. Until, you know, on turn 4 or 5 or something i play the loyalist. Hes got haste, so the piledriver gets trample on that turn. Now hes swinging for 8 or 10 with trample....games 2 and 3 my lackeys dont get hit with the removal as quickly.

    Im actually seeing a lot more goblin decks online lately. I think the trashmaster really plugged a serious hole in goblin decks.

    Looking forward to your thoughts.

  5. #1465

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by r497 View Post
    How do you guys sideboard against Miracles? How do you approach the matchup?
    Just wanting to see if I'm on the right page

    Not much, maybe the other Trashmaster or Tuktuk Scrapper since there are some playing a stoneforge package SB i've seen, or as a hedge against them bringing in needle/spyglass. Maybe a needle of our own, or ratchet bomb for angel/monk tokens if you're running that. I probably wouldn't even bring in pyro/REB if I'm running it in my board.

    If they're going to win it's usually on the back of a timely entreat on our end step right after a board wipe. But that's a one-of that is kind of corner and requires some setup on their part...this is literally the last matchup I would ever make sb slots for.

  6. #1466

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz View Post
    Not much, maybe the other Trashmaster or Tuktuk Scrapper since there are some playing a stoneforge package SB i've seen, or as a hedge against them bringing in needle/spyglass. Maybe a needle of our own, or ratchet bomb for angel/monk tokens if you're running that. I probably wouldn't even bring in pyro/REB if I'm running it in my board.

    If they're going to win it's usually on the back of a timely entreat on our end step right after a board wipe. But that's a one-of that is kind of corner and requires some setup on their part...this is literally the last matchup I would ever make sb slots for.
    I'd bring in REBs nowadays because of Back to Basics. The card is legitimately super annoying for us. Countering Snapcaster, Jace, and Teferi is nothing to sneeze at as well.

    Thorn/Chalice are both annoying for them, especially chalice. Turning off all the cantrips and stp is pretty awesome. I'd board in 1 needle as a hedge most likely. Can always name jace preemptively, or protect yourself from engineered explosives. Right now, I'd just do 2 pyroblast 1 Needle, but if I'm boarding in Chalice I'd bring them in too. We have a few pretty cuttable cards against Miracles: Stingscourger, the 3rd gempalm, a tarfire or two.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Post DRS Goblins MTGO Leagues Only Data

  7. #1467

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    What about Surgical? Is it useful for taking out all their StPs or Terminus?

  8. #1468
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    If you ever board Surgical against Miracles, it's for their win con, like Mentor, Jace or Entreat. Actually, Terminus does pretty much nothing to Goblins, because we can reshuffle the deck with either fetches or Matron and start all over again to cast/drop our boys while they cantrip.

    Don't deploy too much, though, because we'll need 2/3 Gobs to Gempalm Mentor safely when they are full tapped. That means that we want good Ringleaders here to recoup quickly and we don't want to dilute our deck with unecessary stuff like Surgical.

    Keep it for GY hate against Storm and Reanimator.

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  9. #1469

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by r497 View Post
    What about Surgical? Is it useful for taking out all their StPs or Terminus?
    Not sure if there's a SB guide on the primer or in discord, but imo surgical for miracles is overboarding, which is a pretty common error with this deck. The only decks you want to board in non-goblin cards are where they're silver bullets (surgical/faerie macabre for reanimator, thorn/chalice specifically for storm and other fast combo, though I've seen some success bringing in for RUG Delver). I really don't like boarding in a ton of cards where the gameplan is to grind the other deck out. If it's a matchup where that doesn't really happen, then I have access to 15 cards that will tilt the matchup a little bit, hopefully. You start to dilute the deck of non-goblin cards, ringleader gets way worse, there goes your card advantage/grind gameplan.

    The fast, unfair combo decks have always been the achilles to this deck. Sideboard heavy for those, not so heavily for fair decks.

  10. #1470

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Just side in thorns/thalias and everything's gonna be alright.
    P.s: wastes and ports extremely important in this matchup

  11. #1471

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    So I believe the question for now is, in a "new" (changed) meta like this one, which version is best? Rg, Rwg, Rbg, Rb, Rw...? Pros and cons, arguments?

  12. #1472

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    So I believe the question for now is, in a "new" (changed) meta like this one, which version is best? Rg, Rwg, Rbg, Rb, Rw...? Pros and cons, arguments?
    Recent results point towards Mono Red.
    Pros: More Stable Manabase
    Cons: Marginally worse vs combo

  13. #1473

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    Recent results point towards Mono Red.
    Pros: More Stable Manabase
    Cons: Marginally worse vs combo
    That's boring.

  14. #1474
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    That's boring.
    What do you mean?

  15. #1475

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Sorry, beer. I just like my old, 3-c jund version from 2008 and want it to be good again. I also don't like the lack of combo interaction in mono red. I do think that 1 Taiga is needed even in "Mono-Red" for Tin Street Hooligan due to trashmaster being revokerable, but otherwise I guess it's fine to play Mono-Red, just not what I was hoping for.

  16. #1476
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I think you'll love to see how to beat Belcher, TES, or Oops all Spell with my mono-red build. Surgical/Thorn/Mind Break Trap and Ports are more than enough to beat these decks. Mindbreak Trap for the win.

    By the way, I don't understand this tendance arguing that a black splash is better than any other build, because of discard spells. Most of the time, these discard spells are discarded by opponent discard spells, especially on the draw. Probability to miss is huge, whether there is no business spell in opp hands, yet, or it just delays them for 1 turn or two, which is not enough to kill them.

    Among all Goblins splashed version, the black one has the less consistent mana base and is so vulnerable that it makes our fair match ups worse. I don't know where's the gain here.

    For those who play a lot, not only once a week at the LGS, you know that Miracles, our most easiest MU on paper, but also the most played deck since post ban, can be a real pain, because of back to basics. We don't want to splash here. You know that RUG, the most tempo deck right now, is tough to beat, between Stifle and Wastelands. We don't want splash here. Same for D&T, the most played creatures / prison deck, we don't want to splash here and expose our lands to their Wastelands or even Needles on fetches, who knows.

    As for Tin Street, this is no answer to a Revoker on Trashmaster, or not the answer we want. We have removals for that. It does not justify to splash green for only this purpose. We hurt us more than we solve anything by doing so. Packing enough removals should do the job.

    And even if Trashmaster got revoked or needled, it does not mean that we lose to a SofI. The fact that he gives +1/+1 to the tribe still let us in a good spot. SofI won't kill our pumped X/2's, so the back fire threat is concrete.

    Really, I would like to hear more experienced players on this, but IMO, there is no reason to splash anything anymore, even against combo. We have Pyrokinesis, Thorn, Cage, MBT, Surgical/Leyline/Faerie/Relic whatever.

  17. #1477

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Black cards are definitely better than the red/generic options vs combo

    You can't argue against them with points like "What if your opponent just discards your discard spells?" (How is this not true for Thalia, MBT, literally any card that exists? Are you going to play Basking Rootwalla as combo hate or try to beat storm with Leylines?) or "What if the opponent doesn't have anything good to discard?", these arguments are idiotic.

    Every splash list has basically the exact same manabase, I'm not sure why you think black is less consistent than other combinations

    "Red/Colorless options are good enough and you don't want to lose percentages vs Back to Basics and Stifle" is a legitimate argument, it just depends on how prevalent these cards are

    I agree that being scared of Revoker on Trashmaster is unwarranted because we have so much removal for it.
    Needle on the other hand might be more of a problem, so I think playing some alternate form of artifact destruction in the side is probably correct, but it doesn't have to be specifically TSH.

  18. #1478
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    IMO splashing or not is more of an option of playstyle and reading the meta. I've been shifting all around, sometimes b and g splash, sometimes only g, sometimes mono...


    Different strokes for different folks

  19. #1479
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Regarding the color splash....

    During the DRS era there was a specific incentive to play MonoR to avoid fetching and feeding opposing DRS. That's no longer a concern, but the meta is already shifting towards more Stifles and Back to Basics to attack the format's less resilient manabases. What I find interesting is that pre-ban AND post-ban there are good reasons to avoid splashing, and that points us clearly in the direction of a monoR build. Magic is ultimately a game of consistency. There should always be a goal of reducing variance and risk in deck design, and I think that should still be a primary consideration in discussing the splash.

    A splash can fuck up your game in three ways:
    1) You can be Waste/Port/Stifle/B2B/Mooned off your splash color, making sideboard cards dead draws.
    2) You can be Waste/Stifle/B2B'ed off your splash color, leaving you without the mana you need to play your 3 and 4 cmc maindeck cards.
    3) You can naturally fail to draw the fetchlands and dual lands you need to cast your sideboard cards, which is a real possibility considering we only have room for about 4-6 fetches and 2-4 duals.

    Since a splash opens up new routes to losing it had better open new routes to winning as well. But do the splashes really give us more tools than monoR? The majority of sideboard cards we run are basically colorless (Chalice, Mindbreak, Leylines, Needle, Thorn) or Red (Moon, Pyrokinesis, Confusion in the Ranks, REB, Pyroblast, shatter effects). There are only a few splash color cards that do not have a similar red or colorless counterpart. Off the top of my head, here are the cards that require a splash that don't have a monoR or colorless counterpart...
    Discard spells
    Containment Priest
    Enchantment destruction
    Earwig Squad
    Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
    Karakas
    Warren Weirding

    I don't think any of these cards give enough advantage on their own to warrant a splash and bring all the variance that comes with the splash. Running a deck with a more consistent manabase and slightly less powerful sideboard cards is the way to go.

    That being said, does anyone have a strong sideboarding strategy that requires a splash which they think cannot be replicated without a splash?

  20. #1480
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Regarding the color splash....

    During the DRS era there was a specific incentive to play MonoR to avoid fetching and feeding opposing DRS. That's no longer a concern, but the meta is already shifting towards more Stifles and Back to Basics to attack the format's less resilient manabases. What I find interesting is that pre-ban AND post-ban there are good reasons to avoid splashing, and that points us clearly in the direction of a monoR build. Magic is ultimately a game of consistency. There should always be a goal of reducing variance and risk in deck design, and I think that should still be a primary consideration in discussing the splash.

    A splash can fuck up your game in three ways:
    1) You can be Waste/Port/Stifle/B2B/Mooned off your splash color, making sideboard cards dead draws.
    2) You can be Waste/Stifle/B2B'ed off your splash color, leaving you without the mana you need to play your 3 and 4 cmc maindeck cards.
    3) You can naturally fail to draw the fetchlands and dual lands you need to cast your sideboard cards, which is a real possibility considering we only have room for about 4-6 fetches and 2-4 duals.

    Since a splash opens up new routes to losing it had better open new routes to winning as well. But do the splashes really give us more tools than monoR? The majority of sideboard cards we run are basically colorless (Chalice, Mindbreak, Leylines, Needle, Thorn) or Red (Moon, Pyrokinesis, Confusion in the Ranks, REB, Pyroblast, shatter effects). There are only a few splash color cards that do not have a similar red or colorless counterpart. Off the top of my head, here are the cards that require a splash that don't have a monoR or colorless counterpart...
    Discard spells
    Containment Priest
    Enchantment destruction
    Earwig Squad
    Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
    Karakas
    Warren Weirding

    I don't think any of these cards give enough advantage on their own to warrant a splash and bring all the variance that comes with the splash. Running a deck with a more consistent manabase and slightly less powerful sideboard cards is the way to go.

    That being said, does anyone have a strong sideboarding strategy that requires a splash which they think cannot be replicated without a splash?
    The entire point of the black splash is for discard spells postboard, because they are the most versatile hate for combo matchups. Thorns is great vs Storm, but shit vs Sneak & Show, mediocre at best vs Reanimator, and not very good against Turbo Depths.

    Chalice, too, is hit or miss. Same thing with Mindbreak Trap. Discard is generally good against all of the combo matchups.

    You're not bringing discard spells in for matchups that would attack your manabase, so it's irrelevant. My list only runs 2 Badlands, which barely makes a difference against Back to Basics, and is irrelevant against Blood Moon (it only cuts me off of 2 Warren Weirding maindeck).

    The weakness to Stifle is legit, but the only deck that's packing Stifle is RUG Delver, which is not enough meta share alone to warrant not running the black splash.

    Warren Weirding is a superior pre-board removal spell compared to Stingscourger maindeck, too.

    I'm not knocking staying mono red, which is a fine choice depending on the perceived meta... but to discredit the black splash is silly. If you want to improve your combo matchups across the board (the Achilles Heel of this deck), run 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Cabal Therapy in the sideboard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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