[Deck] Vial Goblins

[jrw1985]

There isn't deathrite nowadays.

This man speaks the truth!


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[GoblinSmashmaster]

Old Goblins player looking to get back into it. Trashmaster (plus the lack of Squires) makes me excited to play the little green men. The last time I played, every deck had Deathrite, Stoneforge, Monastery Swiftspear, or Metalworker. Sad times for Goblin Lackey!

Looking at recent top 8s, I see the old core has shrunk down to 4 Lackey, 4 Vial, 4 Matron, 4 Ringleader (and of course 4 Caverns, 4 Wasteland, basic Mountain). At least 2 Gempalms and the miser's Stingscourger appear in just about every list, yet they're not considered "core". After that there's a clear split between the WInstigator builds (4 Instigator, Chieftains, Chrome Mox, top-heavy with SGC+Kiki+Krenko) and the traditional builds (4 Warchiefs, Piledrivers, War Marshals).

Is there any consensus on which version is better for the current meta?

Legion War Boss, Winter Orb and Damping Sphere all seem bad. I don't understand the rationale.

I also don't understand why Thorn of Amethyst is still popular after Thalia was printed? Is this just to stay monored so your few red sources are more resilient to Wasteland? I'm leaning towards the white splash for Thalia, Containment Priest, and Wear//Tear.

This is my current list


//Lands (22)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
4 Mountain

//Non-Goblins (4)
4 Aether Vial

//Goblins (34)
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Tarfire
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror-Breaker

//Sideboard (15)
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Ashen Rider
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Wear // Tear


Any suggestions?

[Bichon_Blitz]

Is there any consensus on which version is better for the current meta?


I also don't understand why Thorn of Amethyst is still popular after Thalia was printed? Is this just to stay monored so your few red sources are more resilient to Wasteland? I'm leaning towards the white splash for Thalia, Containment Priest, and Wear//Tear.

No consensus on which is better, though i do think the classic list is putting up results. Play what you like, same goes for splash. I don't think RUG delver and stifle became the thing everyone thought was going to happen so I'd say it's safe to splash. Back to Basics, however, is a very real card.

Thorn is exactly for that, the monored version.

Your list looks fine. Lots of removal, but a lot of lists are things like meta-calls, so there's nothing wrong with that if you're in a creature heavy meta. DnT is played a lot in paper.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Old Goblins player looking to get back into it. Trashmaster (plus the lack of Squires) makes me excited to play the little green men. The last time I played, every deck had Deathrite, Stoneforge, Monastery Swiftspear, or Metalworker. Sad times for Goblin Lackey!

Looking at recent top 8s, I see the old core has shrunk down to 4 Lackey, 4 Vial, 4 Matron, 4 Ringleader (and of course 4 Caverns, 4 Wasteland, basic Mountain). At least 2 Gempalms and the miser's Stingscourger appear in just about every list, yet they're not considered "core". After that there's a clear split between the WInstigator builds (4 Instigator, Chieftains, Chrome Mox, top-heavy with SGC+Kiki+Krenko) and the traditional builds (4 Warchiefs, Piledrivers, War Marshals).

Is there any consensus on which version is better for the current meta?

Legion War Boss, Winter Orb and Damping Sphere all seem bad. I don't understand the rationale.

I also don't understand why Thorn of Amethyst is still popular after Thalia was printed? Is this just to stay monored so your few red sources are more resilient to Wasteland? I'm leaning towards the white splash for Thalia, Containment Priest, and Wear//Tear.

This is my current list


//Lands (22)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
4 Mountain

//Non-Goblins (4)
4 Aether Vial

//Goblins (34)
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Tarfire
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror-Breaker

//Sideboard (15)
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Ashen Rider
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Wear // Tear


Any suggestions?

I personally agree with you about Thalia / Splash, but people really like their mountains.

That said: you can certainly drop a Plateau for a Mountain. Thalia and Demystify (Tear) only come in against decks without wasteland. Getting Plateau'd wasted in non white needed matchups sucks, so you only need the first, and don't want the second.

Honestly right now we are all trying to figure out how to beat Grixis Control, which appears to be pretty bad match-up. Hit up the discord if you haven't already, there is much more active discussion happening there. I know what I'm supposed to do in every match-up I can think of except Grixis Control currently.

End of this month I'll be at 200 man event and have much more match-up information, due to testing, to update the primer with.

I'm not really willing to call Stingscourger Core yet. It's going to be in your list, in the 75, not necessarily in the maindeck. Perhaps that's enough to call it, but I'm not sure yet. I'll think on it. I've certainly run it in the board and 0 in the main.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Sorry about the Double Post, but I think this warrants it:

2 Mana Shatter Goblin!

---

Goblin Cratermaker {1}{R}

Creature — Goblin Warrior

{1}, Sacrifice Goblin Cratermaker: Choose one —

• Goblin Cratermaker deals 2 damage to target creature.

• Destroy target colorless nonland permanent.

---

Goblin Cratermaker on Scryfall

Kills Emrakul, Thought-Knot Seer, Batterskull, Jitte, and Sword of Fire and Ice. Not to mention it's a creature shock.

[Bichon_Blitz]

He's three total to activate, but yea he's really good. It's going to be interesting seeing how he fits into lists. I will probably play him in place of the 2x War Marshall and see how that goes, since I really haven't had to rely on a lot of chump blocking lately.

His modality is what really makes him shine, too. I don't think I'd play more than two unless I was expecting a ton of eldrazi, which he hoses.

[jrw1985]

He's three total to activate, but yea he's really good. It's going to be interesting seeing how he fits into lists. I will probably play him in place of the 2x War Marshall and see how that goes, since I really haven't had to rely on a lot of chump blocking lately.

His modality is what really makes him shine, too. I don't think I'd play more than two unless I was expecting a ton of eldrazi, which he hoses.

I'm surprised you haven't been needing to chump lately, given the rise of Death's Shadow and the continued presence of Angler! Do you think those decks are underrepresented in your meta?

As for the Cratermaker, he's pretty sweet. List idea:

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
3 MWM
3 Piledriver
3 Cratermaker
3 Gempalm
2 Tarfire
2 Stingscourger
1 Trashmaster
1 Krenko
22 lands

Thoughts?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Do you still need the Tarfires?

[Bichon_Blitz]

I'm surprised you haven't been needing to chump lately, given the rise of Death's Shadow and the continued presence of Angler! Do you think those decks are underrepresented in your meta?

As for the Cratermaker, he's pretty sweet. List idea:

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
3 MWM
3 Piledriver
3 Cratermaker
3 Gempalm
2 Tarfire
2 Stingscourger
1 Trashmaster
1 Krenko
22 lands

Thoughts?

You’re right that MWM is the best card against UB shadow usually. I’ve just dodged it at my shop. It does do wonders against angler no doubt. When I’ve tested against UB shadow I feel like we’re slightly favored, though they can get those but tempo draws with discard and make it a non game.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Cratermaker looks amazing. Everything Ember Hauler needed to be. Same body and shock. Easier mana cost. Costs less with Warchief. Kills Eldrazis, Ensnaring Bridge, and other nasty stuff. I wonder if 3 is too many maindeck. I might start testing with 2.

That said: you can certainly drop a Plateau for a Mountain. Thalia and Demystify (Tear) only come in against decks without wasteland. Getting Plateau'd wasted in non white needed matchups sucks, so you only need the first, and don't want the second.

Good point. I could go -1 fetch, -1 Plateau, +2 Mountain. I don't need white often.

I don't think RUG delver and stifle became the thing everyone thought was going to happen so I'd say it's safe to splash. Back to Basics, however, is a very real card.

Yeah I'm most worried about getting shut off colored sources by Stifle+Waste. If RUG doesn't become a thing, great.

I'm not worried about B2B. I have the same number of mana-producing nonbasics as monored (-2 Port, +2 Plateau), so no increase in risk of getting landlocked. Most games I'm fetching basic Mountain anyway.

Blood Moon might hurt vs Imperial Painter or MonoRed Sneak Attack, when I'd actually want the white cards, but those are fringe decks.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Do you still need the Tarfires?

The biggest reason I like Tarfire is clearing the way for Lackey on turn 2. Gempalm for 1 doesn't cut it. MWM, pass the turn, Gempalm on turn 3 is awkward. Cratermaker doesn't fill that role either, since it costs 3 total. I'm going to start with a mix of both, not ready to lose Tarfire yet.

[1GoblinLackey]

The biggest reason I like Tarfire is clearing the way for Lackey on turn 2. Gempalm for 1 doesn't cut it. MWM, pass the turn, Gempalm on turn 3 is awkward. Cratermaker doesn't fill that role either, since it costs 3 total. I'm going to start with a mix of both, not ready to lose Tarfire yet.

What 2 toughness creature are you trying to get lackey past on turn 2 nowadays? Without DRS, I think it's literally only nettle sentinel?

I do think Tarfire is largely obsolete with our new 2 drop. Play a single mogg fanatic for mana dork/mom killing, gempalm and cratermaker handle basically everything else.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

On the draw there are a bunch of things that trade/block profitably with a lackey on turn 2. Stoneforge, Thalia, Confidant, Goyf if one person popped a fetch, there are several others. It's still a legitimate concern

[jrw1985]

Do you still need the Tarfires?

I think we do. It proved its worth in the DRS era and is simply the best early game removal spell, and we’re still a deck that wants Lackey to connect. So I think it still warrants a spot or two.


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[Bichon_Blitz]

What 2 toughness creature are you trying to get lackey past on turn 2 nowadays? Without DRS, I think it's literally only nettle sentinel?

I do think Tarfire is largely obsolete with our new 2 drop. Play a single mogg fanatic for mana dork/mom killing, gempalm and cratermaker handle basically everything else.

Tarfire will still be relevant. We can never have enough spot removal. I think you’re hyping crater master a little too much. I think we primarily will use him to blow up artifacts/eldrazi/New Karn, but three mana for a Shock is god awful in legacy. It’s a nice option to have for sure, but for answering a flipped Delver it would be clunky AF to matron for this guy and have three mana open to answer a threat.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Goyf if one person popped a fetch

I agree with your overall point for most 2 drops, but just wanted to point out it is literally impossible for Tarfire to kill Goyf, even with empty graveyards.

When creatures take direct damage, they only die when state-based effects are checked. When state-based effects are checked, Tarfire is in the graveyard buffing Goyf's toughness by 2 types (Tribal Instant), so the damage is not lethal. Goyf will be minimum 2/3 so Tarfire can never kill it. Goyf's popularity is the reason people were skeptical when I tried to play Tarfire main 8 years ago. It's terrible against Goyf but great against most other early bodies.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I agree with your overall point for most 2 drops, but just wanted to point out it is literally impossible for Tarfire to kill Goyf, even with empty graveyards.

When creatures take direct damage, they only die when state-based effects are checked. When state-based effects are checked, Tarfire is in the graveyard buffing Goyf's toughness by 2 types (Tribal Instant), so the damage is not lethal. Goyf will be minimum 2/3 so Tarfire can never kill it. Goyf's popularity is the reason people were skeptical when I tried to play Tarfire main 8 years ago. It's terrible against Goyf but great against most other early bodies.

I have killed more Goyv's than I can count with Tarfire and Relic of Progenitus. But yeah, it can't do it without help.

[Fourbirr]

How to kill Goyf with Tarfire ?

Prerequisites:
- Graveyard is empty,
- Relic of Progenitus is in play.

1) Tarfire targets Goyf, he takes 2 damages.
2) Tarfire goes into the GY, pumps Goyf, he goes to 3 toughness, with 2 damages still on him until the end of turn.
3) Crack Relic, graveyards are empty, we check the state based effects -> Tarmo is a 0/1 with 2 damages on him, so he dies.

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[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree with your overall point for most 2 drops, but just wanted to point out it is literally impossible for Tarfire to kill Goyf, even with empty graveyards.

When creatures take direct damage, they only die when state-based effects are checked. When state-based effects are checked, Tarfire is in the graveyard buffing Goyf's toughness by 2 types (Tribal Instant), so the damage is not lethal. Goyf will be minimum 2/3 so Tarfire can never kill it. Goyf's popularity is the reason people were skeptical when I tried to play Tarfire main 8 years ago. It's terrible against Goyf but great against most other early bodies.

Correct. Was in a hurry. Thanks for keeping me honest.

[Qweerios]

How to kill Goyf with Tarfire ?

Prerequisites:
- Graveyard is empty,
- Relic of Progenitus is in play.

1) Tarfire targets Goyf, he takes 2 damages.
2) Tarfire goes into the GY, pumps Goyf, he goes to 3 toughness, with 2 damages still on him until the end of turn.
3) Crack Relic, graveyards are empty, we check the state based effects -> Tarmo is a 0/1 with 2 damages on him, so he dies.

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Graveyards don't have to be empty if you plan on having both GY empty at the same time.

Now what you could do if Goyf was 0/1 or 1/2 before your Tarfire is to simply tap relic and exile your Tarfire. That way the Goyf still dies and you get to keep the relic in play.