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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #1881

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I put Harbinger as a 1-of because it's a relatively bad card outside the combo. Rakdos Charm is fun because it triggers Lackey in its last mode and randomly hoses GY/artifacts but maybe that's too cute. This is of course all very rough and sketchy, I just want to go as fast as possible.

  2. #1882
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    I put Harbinger as a 1-of because it's a relatively bad card outside the combo. Rakdos Charm is fun because it triggers Lackey in its last mode and randomly hoses GY/artifacts but maybe that's too cute. This is of course all very rough and sketchy, I just want to go as fast as possible.
    That could be a reason to have more than 0 Rakdos Charm in the SB. But if you just want to trigger Lackey for 2 mana, there are cards like Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Gempalm Incinerator, Tarfire, or Goblin Cratermaker (doesn't help for turn 2 connection, but better card overall). Just remove the blocker. The upside is removal is also good when you don't have Lackey.

    Muxus is a good enough payoff to run some "force Lackey through" cards.

  3. #1883
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    If you want to get lackey through I would play Smoldering Spires first. You may need the additionnal land drops for your six-mana goblin.
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  4. #1884
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    If you want to get lackey through I would play Smoldering Spires first. You may need the additionnal land drops for your six-mana goblin.
    Congrats on your 5-0 the other day! I get the CT main. What was the inspiration for Ghost Quarter over Port?

  5. #1885
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I don't think port is that good, I often can and prefer to fill the board. You mostly destroy special lands with wasteland like dark depths and Ghost Quarter does that (and it improves the sb surgical plan for thespian decks). It's also two additionnal wastelands versus decks without basics like tempo and since players tend to fetch basics versus you anyway it also is quite good after they fetched their 1/2/3 basic(s). Guessing how many basics they have on a read isn't that hard and there are stock lists (for exemple ANT always plays 2 basics). Finally it can fix my colored mana in emergency situations which is sometimes a problem in goblins (and I would say regularly if you play ports).


    Edit : if you really want to know the inspiration (if I understand correctly), I got it from my old goblins list from a few years ago. Already no ports, GQ, Swamp, Sparksmith, and since goblins were quite bad at dealing with tarmogoyf my main removal back then was 3x Stingscourger + 4x Cabal Therapy main. When I discovered the Modern Horizons goblins two weeks ago I first played a league with a list with ports even though I was already skeptical, then used GQ and adjusted the numbers, then went all in on playing the cards I liked. Didn't change a slot after that move. I went 5-0, 5-0, 1-4 with this list. Not planning to play in the near future.
    Last edited by Lejay; 06-24-2020 at 05:01 PM.
    CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
    You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.

    An example with my (very large) list in a visual form

  6. #1886

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    If kiki winds up in your hand, like from natural draws or Ringleader, is the combo dead? Or theres a way to still do it?

  7. #1887
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins


  8. #1888
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    If Kiki winds up in hand, congratulations, you get to play a Kiki. Just win that way. You don't need to re-assemble the Snoop combo when you can just play a Kiki and win like Goblins always has with Kiki (copying Piledirvers, Matrons, etc).

  9. #1889
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    If Kiki winds up in hand, congratulations, you get to play a Kiki. Just win that way. You don't need to re-assemble the Snoop combo when you can just play a Kiki and win like Goblins always has with Kiki (copying Piledirvers, Matrons, etc).
    This. Just win with the good card. (e.g. T2 Munitions Expert removing blocker. Lackey hits and drops Kiki. Kiki can now blow up their next play. Snoop who?)

    Even if you build with Snoop combo, you don't always have to win with Snoop. Goblins has many roads to victory. Snoop combo just seems like a better version of the old Piledriver go-wide plan. It gives the deck a way to finish the game quickly once you're in a good position. It's explosive, doesn't need the combat step, and can T3 goldfish to race combo (hopefully improving the worst matchup). Another big advantage is the pieces have utility on their own (card advantage, tutor) instead of being Squire and Gray Ogre on empty boards.

  10. #1890
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Can someone point out the reason why Stingscourger got cut off entirely? I get that more people are replacing him with cratermaker because it has better versatility, but Stingscourger is a tutorable way to cleanly answer a Marit Lage or a Griselbrand. Not saying that we should main deck it, but not having access to at least one in the 75 feels kinda weird.

  11. #1891
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Funny timing, since I just started running one again.
    Stingscourger got cut because it was too slow against the decks you mentioned (Reanimator and Depths). Reanimator is just too fast for it. A resolved Griselbrand is going to draw 7-14 and win regardless of whether or not you're able to Stingscourger it. Depths is able to play around Stingscourger very easily, making Lage on end step. It's better to attack both decks from different angles rather than trying to answer their fatties.
    The second reason Sting got cut was a relative lack of fair targets in the format. TNN, DNT, YP, Delver, none of these really care about Sting. If Sting is bouncing mediocre targets, or if it has no targets at all, its a very bad card.
    Recently the meta has shifted back to a point where Sting looks good again. Uro is a big part of that, as Sting on Uro is a much better play than MunE on Uro. KotR has also become more popular it seems recently. This could be in part because the format has shifted more towards 3-drops, thanks to Uro and Oko. Stingscourger is excellent against KotR of course, gaining a ton of tempo.
    The printing of Muxus also affects Sting's value. Sting has always held the distinction of being the only piece of Goblin-shaped removal that guarantees you will remove a blocker T2. Running a Sting at this point increases your chance of landing a T2 Muxus, winning the game early.

  12. #1892
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Snooop Underdawg - 17th place:
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...rumsh_th_place

    They played the full set of Snoops but only 2 Harbinger, to still have the combo but hedge against Harbinger being bad on its own.


    //Goblins: 34
    4 Goblin Lackey
    1 Skirk Prospector
    4 Conspicuous Snoop
    3 Munitions Expert
    2 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Goblin Piledriver
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    4 Goblin Matron
    2 Boggart Harbinger
    2 Goblin Warchief
    1 Goblin Chainwhirler
    1 Pashalik Mons
    2 Goblin Ringleader
    2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    2 Muxus, Goblin Grandee

    //Vials: 4
    4 Aether Vial

    //Lands: 23
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Arid Mesa
    1 Wooded Foothills
    2 Badlands
    4 Mountain
    1 Swamp
    1 Karakas
    1 Rishadan Port

    //SB: 15
    3 Leyline of the Void
    3 Chalice of the Void
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Eliminate
    1 Pyrokinesis
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast


    Curve:
    1 - 9
    2 - 11
    3 - 10
    4 - 5
    5 - 1
    6 - 2


    Notable changes over typical lists:
    - down to 2 Ringleader, to make room at the top end for 2nd Sling-Gang + Kiki for the Snoop combo
    - 2/2 split of Harbinger and Warchief instead of going all-in on Harbinger for the combo
    - toolbox-y list with many 1-ofs for the 6 tutors
    - only 4 ways to push through Lackey on turn 2, so this isn't too heavy on the Muxus plan
    - 61 cards

    I have to wonder if all the 3 drops, especially the 2nd Warchief or the Pashalik, are better than being 60 cards.

    A few years back someone did an analysis of the win rates of different Goblins deck compositions and determined the optimal curve for non-Winstigator lists had 13 turn 2 plays (Prospector and Gempalm count). There's temptation to play a lot of 3s (e.g. Warchief + Chieftain), but too many 3s and not enough 2s affected the curve and tempo when Vial/Lackey is disrupted. If that's still true, I would be tempted to go
    - 1 Warchief
    +1 Stingscourger

  13. #1893

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    With essentially 6 tutors I would definitely go a more toolbox route and add in Stingscourger.

  14. #1894
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    my current definitive list looks like this



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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I have been testing a nontraditional Aggro-Combo Muxus WInstigator Snoop list since Snoop was printed.


    //Goblins: 37
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Warren Instigator
    4 Conspicuous Snoop
    4 Munitions Expert
    3 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Stingscourger
    4 Goblin Matron
    3 Goblin Chieftain
    2 Boggart Harbinger
    1 Pashalik Mons
    2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    4 Muxus, Goblin Grandee

    //Artifacts: 0
    0 Aether Vial

    //Mana: 23
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothills
    2 Badlands
    4 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Chalice of the Void
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Earwig Squad
    2 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    1 Goblin Chainwhirler
    1 Mogg Fanatic


    I made the controversial decision to cut Vial, with Vial leading to slower starts and being weaker in an meta where blue control is dominated by UG Oko instead of UW Miracles. Cutting Vial also solves the problem of WInstigator decks having bad topdecks/reveals with 12 accelerants. I also cut Port, which is much worse without Vial and doesn't support the more aggressive game plan. The last controversial decision is 0 maindeck Ringleader vs 5 maindeck cards in the 5-6cc slot! This is a more aggressive plan and Ringleader is more of a controlling tool that is very powerful but also much slower on tempo without Vial or Warchief.

    Instead I just run 8 ways to push through turn 1 Lackey/WInstigator to maximize Muxus game 1. Between turn 2 Muxus and the Snoop combo, this deck has a very reasonable chance of goldfishing on turn 3 with Caverns protection, which gives it legs vs traditionally bad matchups in game 1. I have just raced combo decks in some games, either with Muxus or Snoop combo, and I've punished fair decks hard for not immediately answering every Lackey effect or not leaving enough chump blockers.

    The Snoop combo has more natural synergy with the WInstigator plan than with the Vial/Lackey plan. Kiki-Jiki and tutors are better in WInstigator lists. Chrome Mox enables a turn 2 win (T1 Snoop T2 Harbinger). Chieftain makes the 1/1 and 1/2 tutor bodies less bad for fair beatdown. Snoop wants to be explosive, not play mana denial control. Unblocked Instigator can also let you combo out of nowhere in the combat step. (Example: In one game I cast precombat Snoop revealing Cratermaker and attacked with Chieftain and Instigator, after they had already expended many blockers trying to stop Instigator. They couldn't profitably block 2/2 Instigator through possible Snoop-Cratermaker activation, but they could kill Chieftain, so they blocked Chieftain instead. WInstigator's first strike trigger dropped Harbinger, which let me combo off at instant speed with the hasty Snoop before the Chieftain died!!)

    Both Muxus and Snoop are very powerful with such a high Goblin count, almost 2/3 of cards. In theory Ringleader should be very strong here too, but I couldn't find space in the curve. 4-6cc is all too slow to hardcast most games without Vial or Warchief, and when you can cheat out a Goblin most of the time Muxus is just a better payoff. Some number of Ringleaders in the 75 is probably correct because the cards in hand are better vs board wipes, and hitting Ringleader off Muxus is dumb.

    Because the creature curve is so low (20 at 2cmc or less), there is a legitimate plan of just running out Snoop and casting multiple Goblins off the top for card advantage. Because of that plan as well as the Snoop combo, Lackey+WInstigator+Snoop all become must-kills for spot removal because you can threaten to win out of nowhere.

    I tested a 1-of Smoldering Spires as a 21st land but was not happy with the ETB tapped most of the time (e.g. it means you can't play a 2-drop on turn 2 even if it pushes Lackey through, while Expert/Sting puts another body on board, and when you don't need the effect it's terrible).

    I am still tweaking a few slots:
    -number of Chieftains
    -number of Harbingers
    -Trashmaster and Chainwhirler in main vs SB
    -possible 1-of Mogg Fanatic main over the 2nd Sling-Gang (serves role as backup combo wincon while also acting as blocker removal)
    -whether to have backup Ringleaders in the SB vs control

    This has very explosive lines of play and many ways to interact, but needs more tweaks and testing across a wide range of decks.
    Last edited by FTW; 11-13-2020 at 12:09 PM.

  17. #1897

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  18. #1898

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?
    Please see this thread for info about that: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1090004

  19. #1899
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?
    The 4x Muxus lists with Instigators are very explosive. I'm glad this tech is taking off.

    Recent MTGO 5-0 with Turbo Muxus:
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-20#bargahof_-

    2nd place Legacy Challenge Feb 1st:
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=29051&d=428900&f=LE

    9th place Legacy Challenge Dec 28th:
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=28701&d=426616&f=LE

    1st place Discord tournament (25 players) Jan 2nd:
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=28747&d=426914&f=LE

    1st place Discord tournament (32 players) Jan 31st:
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=28747&d=426914&f=LE

    There haven't been many big events at all. Low sample size era.

  20. #1900
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?
    omega lol, sigged.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

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