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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #1741

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by zebhillard View Post
    I still think trading one for one in the early games is fine
    Trading one for one in the early game is fine because it assumes that you're going survive to the lategame where you can pull ahead with superior CA

    If you Mogg Fanatic your opponent's Delver of Secrets that's generally good, but if you then play out 4 non-cavern lands and they Daze your Ringleader suddenly you aren't winning the card advantage war anymore (and are in fact clearly losing, because even if your Delver opponent isn't drawing extra cards they have the inbuilt virtual CA of operating on less mana than you)

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    If you Mogg Fanatic your opponent's Delver of Secrets that's generally good, but if you then play out 4 non-cavern lands and they Daze your Ringleader suddenly you aren't winning the card advantage war anymore (and are in fact clearly losing, because even if your Delver opponent isn't drawing extra cards they have the inbuilt virtual CA of operating on less mana than you)
    I guess this point is down to semantics, but t4 is a solid mid-game in Legacy, I was speaking more of Lackey, Vial, etc. It's also contextual depending on each game, you never slam a Ringleader on 4 against an opponent who can tempo you out unless you've already been knocking counterspells out of their hand. But, if they've already pitched something to Force t1 Vial and Dazed a Lackey, they're just as down on cards as you and I think you can afford the risk because your long game is better, despite all of the cantripping they get to do.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by zebhillard View Post
    I guess this point is down to semantics, but t4 is a solid mid-game in Legacy, I was speaking more of Lackey, Vial, etc. It's also contextual depending on each game, you never slam a Ringleader on 4 against an opponent who can tempo you out unless you've already been knocking counterspells out of their hand. But, if they've already pitched something to Force t1 Vial and Dazed a Lackey, they're just as down on cards as you and I think you can afford the risk because your long game is better, despite all of the cantripping they get to do.
    That is exactly why Delver, Waste, Daze, and Force are good together. Sometimes you don't get a choice. Sometimes you jam Ringleader and *Pray* they don't have it. I much prefer the other scenario where they pray I don't have a Cavern.

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  4. #1744
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I just lost a match against Miracles where I was on the draw and kept a one land hand with Vial and Lackey, plus SGC and Piledriver. Opponent was on the play and led G1 with Island into Ponder. I read this as Combo, so I led with Lackey instead of Vial. I wound up losing horribly when Lackey got Swordsed and I never drew another land.

    This experience leads me to believe that leading with Vial is the better play unless you know what your opponent is on 100%. Even if my opponent was on combo I wouldn't have been able to kill him until T3. Leading with Vial was the much safer play and would have given me a chance to win the game, whereas the Lackey opening would only have beaten combo if my opponent drew way worse than me.

    So... I know its an old argument, but it seems like Vial is going to be better the majority of the time, and if it's G1 you should just lead with Vial if you have the choice.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I just lost a match against Miracles where I was on the draw and kept a one land hand with Vial and Lackey, plus SGC and Piledriver. Opponent was on the play and led G1 with Island into Ponder. I read this as Combo, so I led with Lackey instead of Vial. I wound up losing horribly when Lackey got Swordsed and I never drew another land.

    This experience leads me to believe that leading with Vial is the better play unless you know what your opponent is on 100%. Even if my opponent was on combo I wouldn't have been able to kill him until T3. Leading with Vial was the much safer play and would have given me a chance to win the game, whereas the Lackey opening would only have beaten combo if my opponent drew way worse than me.

    So... I know its an old argument, but it seems like Vial is going to be better the majority of the time, and if it's G1 you should just lead with Vial if you have the choice.
    Not to mention I can't count the number of times my turn 1 lackey has been plowed, bolted, pushed, etc. Vial tends to stick around more often.

    However I played against someone the other day who lead with flooded strand into island into ponder, and I played lackey turn 1 instead of vial. He ended up being on spiral tide (not super common) and I killed him turn 3 (lackey in siege gang, turn 2 piledriver, etc)
    If I had played vial I would have been a lot slower and probably lost.

    I still think you're right though that in most situations where you don't know your opponents deck you should lead with vial.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @joaquin
    We should also remember that Vial is going to allow us to be more reactive on the draw. It’s a slow gameplay but it allows us to control the game as Vial ticks up. Lackey will be better on the play for board advantage. Had I taken that approach I would have stood a chance at winning that game.


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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I got worked by 4 color Dack yesterday, in part because I drew terribly and part because I sided terribly. I brought in Chalice, but looking back Chalice really sucks against them because they run only about 12 1-drops and 12 2-drops. Chalice is only really good against decks with 20+ 1cmc cards. So that was a mistake. I should not have sided out Piledrivers because literally all of their creatures are blue. Probably the best sideboard cards I could have played were Pithing Needle and Sphere of Resistance. They only run 21 Lands and have a fairly high curve, so a taxing effect should do wonders to slow them down. I also think that once you realize they’re on 4c Dack you need to save Wastes for the Groves.
    Thoughts?


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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    and 12 2-drops. Chalice is only really good against decks with 20+ 1cmc cards. So that was a mistake.
    Chalice on 2 isn't terrible, as it shuts off Punishing Fire, the hard part is getting it to resolve.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    is playing Kiki Jiki without Settler justifiable or are those two rather unseparable?

  10. #1750

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by AmokPL View Post
    is playing Kiki Jiki without Settler justifiable or are those two rather unseparable?
    Kiki is fine without settler imo

    Generally people consider Kiki jiki to be much stronger in Warren Instigator builds as with the 2 triggers you can Matron->Kiki then copy matron to tutor again and you get a whole bunch of resources for free. Kiki without settler in a non-winstigator build is still fine. The payoff is higher than SGC but it requires more setup / is a worse topdeck

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by AmokPL View Post
    is playing Kiki Jiki without Settler justifiable or are those two rather unseparable?
    I play kiki without settler in a non winstigator list. It's amazing. I choose to play kiki over krenko because krekno feels very "win more" where as kiki can come down on a board where you are losing (you only have a lone matron or ringleader hanging out) and you can then make a token and turn the tide of the game.
    Kiki wins you games sometimes even when you only have war marshal to copy.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by joaquin View Post
    I play kiki without settler in a non winstigator list. It's amazing. I choose to play kiki over krenko because krekno feels very "win more" where as kiki can come down on a board where you are losing (you only have a lone matron or ringleader hanging out) and you can then make a token and turn the tide of the game.
    Kiki wins you games sometimes even when you only have war marshal to copy.
    I also use Kiki over Krenko without Settler. Sometimes it also feels Win More, but other times there's no other card that would win a game if drawn. The ability to duplicate matron, Ringleader, or even Piledriver on occasion have all won me games...not to mention the shenanigans that can be gone about when Siege-Gang gets involved and you just swarm over your opponent or it being the only reason you would ever pay Echo for Stingscourger. Krenko is a bigger swarm card and when it comes in with Haste can end games, but if you have enough goblins of a stable enough board state that you can make goblins for multiple turns, I think you're in a solid position regardless.

    But, with all things contextual, it's...contextual. I totally understand the arguments for both whenever they're made. I just like having 1 more out when I tick Vial up to 5 to plop in a SCG.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    What would you all think of cutting Lackeys and replacing them with Discard? The pros are obvious (disrupt combo, answer difficult cards like plainswalkers and SFM before they can make an impact), but how would the deck negatively impacted? Would the pros outweigh the cons?


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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    What would you all think of cutting Lackeys and replacing them with Discard? The pros are obvious (disrupt combo, answer difficult cards like plainswalkers and SFM before they can make an impact), but how would the deck negatively impacted? Would the pros outweigh the cons?


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    Well, you can't Vial in a Thoughtseize, that's the first thing that comes to mind. When I played Rb I had Cabal Therapy in the board, but that's as far as my black splash went. I'm pretty sure if you want to stay as goblin-centric as you can in the main and sideboard against combo as opposed to come in Game 1 with it. SFM can be pretty easily answered these days with Gempalm or Trashmaster after the fact.

  15. #1755

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Finished second yesterday in a MKM trial (for MKM Ghent) with the little green men.

    R1: UB omnishow
    G1: lackey into siege-gang plus mogg war ensures plenty of pressure while cratermaker does just that, turning emrakul into a giant crater.
    G2: vial, thorn, wasteland and port keep him down while goblins beat face.

    R2: Grixis control
    I get stuck on three lands both games and can't keep up.

    R3: Green stax
    G1: he has the absolute nuts with chalice on 1, tangle wire, smokestack and tracker.
    G2: I get a lackey going which eats a ballista. I restrict him on mana while goblins come down.
    G3: he spends a lot of resources on an early threat which I deal with quickly. The game grinds almost to a halt but I have more cards left in hand so it's just a matter of time.

    R4: D&T
    G1: unanswered lackey and double ringleaders that grab 3 and 4 extra goblins is too much to deal with.
    G2: two vials and port keep his mana down while I blow up his vial and jitte.

    R5: ID (against steel stompy, we play for fun which I win thanks to timely cratermaker activations and a chainwhirler to clean up)

    QF: grixis control (same opponent as before)
    G1: he mulls to 5, I mull to 6, ringleader refills my hand and I get there.
    G2: we both mull to 6, I flood slightly and never see a ringleader to refill so he grinds me out.
    G3: he mulls to 5 again and I mull to 6 again. He fails to find any cantrips and misses a few landdrops so he loses too much tempo.

    SF: dredge
    G1: he has the nutter butter hand with land, LED, breathrough, street wraith and two dredgers in troll and stinky. He proceeds to dredge most of his deck including all 4 ichorids and 2 bridges. I'm essentially dead before turn 1.
    G2 and G3 are really weird games where he does nothing for several turns, thorn prevents him from doing much and dredgers get exiled. A lonely prospector gets in for 5 damage before switching with lackey (exiling bridge in the process) and the little green men that could get there.

    F: infect (Sam aka Fenruscloud, who also happens to be a teammate)
    G1: I play sharpshooter on turn 3 without haste and he kills me in one shot before it gets active.
    G2: lackey trades with elf, he gets pendelhaven and blighted agent after I matron for sharpshooter. Sylvan library finds needle for sharpshooter shortly afterwards. I get rid of his agent eot with incinerator but he just crop rotates for inkmoth and kills me in his turn.

  16. #1756

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanovich View Post
    Finished second yesterday in a MKM trial (for MKM Ghent) with the little green men.

    R1: UB omnishow
    G1: lackey into siege-gang plus mogg war ensures plenty of pressure while cratermaker does just that, turning emrakul into a giant crater.
    G2: vial, thorn, wasteland and port keep him down while goblins beat face.

    R2: Grixis control
    I get stuck on three lands both games and can't keep up.

    R3: Green stax
    G1: he has the absolute nuts with chalice on 1, tangle wire, smokestack and tracker.
    G2: I get a lackey going which eats a ballista. I restrict him on mana while goblins come down.
    G3: he spends a lot of resources on an early threat which I deal with quickly. The game grinds almost to a halt but I have more cards left in hand so it's just a matter of time.

    R4: D&T
    G1: unanswered lackey and double ringleaders that grab 3 and 4 extra goblins is too much to deal with.
    G2: two vials and port keep his mana down while I blow up his vial and jitte.

    R5: ID (against steel stompy, we play for fun which I win thanks to timely cratermaker activations and a chainwhirler to clean up)

    QF: grixis control (same opponent as before)
    G1: he mulls to 5, I mull to 6, ringleader refills my hand and I get there.
    G2: we both mull to 6, I flood slightly and never see a ringleader to refill so he grinds me out.
    G3: he mulls to 5 again and I mull to 6 again. He fails to find any cantrips and misses a few landdrops so he loses too much tempo.

    SF: dredge
    G1: he has the nutter butter hand with land, LED, breathrough, street wraith and two dredgers in troll and stinky. He proceeds to dredge most of his deck including all 4 ichorids and 2 bridges. I'm essentially dead before turn 1.
    G2 and G3 are really weird games where he does nothing for several turns, thorn prevents him from doing much and dredgers get exiled. A lonely prospector gets in for 5 damage before switching with lackey (exiling bridge in the process) and the little green men that could get there.

    F: infect (Sam aka Fenruscloud, who also happens to be a teammate)
    G1: I play sharpshooter on turn 3 without haste and he kills me in one shot before it gets active.
    G2: lackey trades with elf, he gets pendelhaven and blighted agent after I matron for sharpshooter. Sylvan library finds needle for sharpshooter shortly afterwards. I get rid of his agent eot with incinerator but he just crop rotates for inkmoth and kills me in his turn.
    Very well done! Beating UB Omni is quite solid :)

    I ran into FenrusCloud yesterday online and got the Gobs vs Infect revenge for you
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  17. #1757
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    My State of the Union for Gobbos on MTGO:

    I've been playing a lot online recently and have refined my list quite a bit. For starting reference, here's the list I 5-0'd with right after I started playing online.

    Creatures [33]
    1 Goblin Chainwhirler
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Goblin Settler
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Mogg Fanatic
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    2 Goblin Warchief
    2 Stingscourger
    3 Gempalm Incinerator
    3 Goblin Cratermaker
    3 Goblin Piledriver
    3 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron

    Artifacts [4]
    4 Aether Vial

    Lands [23]
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    11 Mountain

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    3 Chalice of the Void
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyrokinesis
    3 Sphere of Resistance

    I really liked this list to begin with. I've always preferred toolbox builds and loved having all the options and interactions that all the singletons provided. When I 5-0'd it was against a slew of midrange decks which I managed to out-grind. The final match was against Manaless Dredge which I beat by just mulling to Leyline G2&3. It was a great run and I was quite pleased. However, when I played the next few leagues with it the wheels kinda fell off the old Goblin cart. Grixis and 4c Control decks had my number. The weakness in the build became obvious- Not enough Card advantage. You might wonder how that could be the case, what with all the standard CA goblins (Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm) along with the potential CA cards (Sharpshooter, Kiki, Trashmaster). But those cards were not the problem, it was the Piledrivers and Lords that were bringing me down. The control decks of the format right now pack a bunch of x/1s that give them immediate CA (Strix, Snapcaster) and those cards are really good at taking out creatures that are just beatsticks. Another problematic card turned out to be Cratermaker. Cratermaker is a very good card that is quite versatile, but it doesn't help you grind against control decks. It's great that is can kill Bridges and Eldrazi and flipped Delvers, but those are all 1-1 trades. So he's lethal, but he doesn't help you win the CA war. There are also times when you're using him to kill equipment which was tutored via SFM, or you're cracking him to kill a Snapcaster, and in both scenarios you're losing CA by running Cratermaker. CA is the crucial key to beating control decks, and Cratermaker just doesn't seem to cut it.

    I changed up the build considerably and just tried something whacky: a 19 land build running both the RR and RB Grenzos and a ton of 2-drops. I hadn't quite hit upon the CA aspect, so i was still trying to jam Cratermakers and Piledrivers.

    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    4 Fanatic
    2 RR Grenzo
    2 RB Grenzo
    3 Piledriver
    3 MWM
    3 Cratermaker
    1 Weirding
    2 Stingscourger
    3 Gempalm
    3 Matron
    3 Ringleader
    1 Trashmaster
    3 Chainwhirler
    1 Settler

    19 lands (0 Ports)

    SIDEBAORD
    1 Thoughtseize
    2 Cabal Therapy
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Faerie Macabre
    2 Pyrokinesis
    1 Trashmaster
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Sphere of Resistance

    Playing versions of this Rb list felt great at times. Ringleaders hit 4-goblins all the damn time. I could operate off of 2 lands and did not really miss playing Port. Best of all this list had much more game against control decks. The matches against Miracles, though, felt unwinnable. With so few lands and no haste lords it felt impossible to regain initiative after a sweeper. Having such a low curve made me cut Chalice from the SB, and Chalice is an MVP card against Miracles. The Grenzos were mediocre against Miracles and generally just ate removal before they could do anything. RB Grenzo was especially disappointing. He blanked all too often even in a 19 land build.

    The 19 land experience convinced me I needed to go back to a more traditional manabase. I also realized that I didn't want RB Grenzo, but that RR Grenzo was pretty incredible against Goodstuff decks. When you set him up correctly he allows you to draw several free cards per attack off of the top of your opponent's deck. This can be huge if your opponent is playing efficient cards like Brainstorm and Bolt, and I realized that RR Grenzo is a really powerful CA Goblin in the 2-drop slot, which is exactly where I wanted a better CA goblin to be.

    Here's where I'm at with my list...

    23 Lands
    6 Fetch
    3 Badlands
    3 Mountain
    4 Cavern
    4 Waste
    3 Port

    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    3 Mogg Fanatic
    1 Prospector
    (Vial and Lackey are obvious. Fanatic has been incredible and though it does not give CA it does provide value. It's not been uncommon for a Fanatic to deal 2-3 points of combat damage over a game and also kill and X/1. Prospector is great with the high MWM count.)

    2 Warren Weirding
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    1 Stingscourger
    3 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
    1 Cratermaker
    (WW has been very good. Obviously it's great against Reanimator and other fatties, but it's also very good at killing annoying Prowess creatures that are difficult to kill with Gempalms. MWM is very very good against Grixis and 4c Control decks as it trades with Strix and Snap without losing CA. Stingscourger is a concession to the Reanimator and Dark Depths decks. Sometimes you just need to park Vial on 2 if you're going to have a chance to win. RR Grenzo is a fucking house against Goodstuff decks and when you hit with 2 or 3 creatures off of him you're getting a pseudo-Brainstorm off the top of your opponent's deck. It's a very powerful effect. Cratermaker is a concession to Equipment and Eldrazi)

    3 Gempalm
    3 Matron
    3 Chainwhirler
    (Gempalm is still great and the ability to Cycle when you just need to hit a 3rd land is extremely helpful. 3 Matron is enough. I cut Matrons and Ringleaders down to 3 because the deck needs space for utility Gobbos. The format requires it. And the curve gets too high when you're running extra 3 and 4-drops. 3 Chainwhirler has been amazing. Being a one sided sweeper is pretty great on its own, but it also beats like a drum.)

    3 Ringleader
    1 Settler
    1 Trashmaster
    1 Krenko
    (3 Ringleader: See Matron. Also, you don't need the CA from Matron and Ringleader quite so badly when you have so much CA from MWM, RRG, Chainwhirler. 1 Settler is a concession to Dark Depths. Trashmaster is amazing and if you're not playing him you're not doing it right. Krenko is a concession to Eldrazi stompy, but also has huge CA potential)

    1 Earwig Squad
    (Concession to Miracles and Combo)

    SIDEABOARD
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    (For GY and combo decks where you need T1/T0 protection. Also playable against grindier recursion strategies like Lands and P Fire. Faerie and Crypt allow you to keep great hands that don't have GY interaction because you can actually draw into them)
    1 Trashmaster
    1 Pyrokinesis
    (Both are great against midrange decks and anything packing Equipment. Trashmaster #2 also comes in against E Plague and Elesh Norn)
    2 Pithing Needle
    (In theory these are for Planeswalkers. In practice they're not very good. I'm seriously considering trying REB instead)
    3 Chalice of the Void
    (Combo and Miracles and Delver)
    1 Sphere of Resistance
    (Combo)
    1 Blood Moon
    (Lands and Depths)

    Note on Omissions:
    Piledriver - Just a beatstick. Best in multiples. No room for that these days. Also needs hastelords to be really lethal.
    Haste Lords - Just a beatstick. No CA. Too high on the curve. I would love to see them print a 2-drop Lord. That could give Goblins the advantage to play the beatdown. The reality though is that the format has combo decks that kill T2. 3 drop Lords are not fast enough to serve a purpose there, and they give up CA while raising our curve too much against midrange and control.
    Sharpshooter - Not better than Chainwhirler.
    SGC/Kiki-Jiki - Too high on the curve. And yes, Earwig is a 5-drop, but his Prowl is 3.

  18. #1758

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    My State of the Union for Gobbos on MTGO:

    I've been playing a lot online recently and have refined my list quite a bit. For starting reference, here's the list I 5-0'd with right after I started playing online.

    Creatures [33]
    1 Goblin Chainwhirler
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Goblin Settler
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Mogg Fanatic
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    2 Goblin Warchief
    2 Stingscourger
    3 Gempalm Incinerator
    3 Goblin Cratermaker
    3 Goblin Piledriver
    3 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron

    Artifacts [4]
    4 Aether Vial

    Lands [23]
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    11 Mountain

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    3 Chalice of the Void
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyrokinesis
    3 Sphere of Resistance

    I really liked this list to begin with. I've always preferred toolbox builds and loved having all the options and interactions that all the singletons provided. When I 5-0'd it was against a slew of midrange decks which I managed to out-grind. The final match was against Manaless Dredge which I beat by just mulling to Leyline G2&3. It was a great run and I was quite pleased. However, when I played the next few leagues with it the wheels kinda fell off the old Goblin cart. Grixis and 4c Control decks had my number. The weakness in the build became obvious- Not enough Card advantage. You might wonder how that could be the case, what with all the standard CA goblins (Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm) along with the potential CA cards (Sharpshooter, Kiki, Trashmaster). But those cards were not the problem, it was the Piledrivers and Lords that were bringing me down. The control decks of the format right now pack a bunch of x/1s that give them immediate CA (Strix, Snapcaster) and those cards are really good at taking out creatures that are just beatsticks. Another problematic card turned out to be Cratermaker. Cratermaker is a very good card that is quite versatile, but it doesn't help you grind against control decks. It's great that is can kill Bridges and Eldrazi and flipped Delvers, but those are all 1-1 trades. So he's lethal, but he doesn't help you win the CA war. There are also times when you're using him to kill equipment which was tutored via SFM, or you're cracking him to kill a Snapcaster, and in both scenarios you're losing CA by running Cratermaker. CA is the crucial key to beating control decks, and Cratermaker just doesn't seem to cut it.

    I changed up the build considerably and just tried something whacky: a 19 land build running both the RR and RB Grenzos and a ton of 2-drops. I hadn't quite hit upon the CA aspect, so i was still trying to jam Cratermakers and Piledrivers.

    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    4 Fanatic
    2 RR Grenzo
    2 RB Grenzo
    3 Piledriver
    3 MWM
    3 Cratermaker
    1 Weirding
    2 Stingscourger
    3 Gempalm
    3 Matron
    3 Ringleader
    1 Trashmaster
    3 Chainwhirler
    1 Settler

    19 lands (0 Ports)

    SIDEBAORD
    1 Thoughtseize
    2 Cabal Therapy
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Faerie Macabre
    2 Pyrokinesis
    1 Trashmaster
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Sphere of Resistance

    Playing versions of this Rb list felt great at times. Ringleaders hit 4-goblins all the damn time. I could operate off of 2 lands and did not really miss playing Port. Best of all this list had much more game against control decks. The matches against Miracles, though, felt unwinnable. With so few lands and no haste lords it felt impossible to regain initiative after a sweeper. Having such a low curve made me cut Chalice from the SB, and Chalice is an MVP card against Miracles. The Grenzos were mediocre against Miracles and generally just ate removal before they could do anything. RB Grenzo was especially disappointing. He blanked all too often even in a 19 land build.

    The 19 land experience convinced me I needed to go back to a more traditional manabase. I also realized that I didn't want RB Grenzo, but that RR Grenzo was pretty incredible against Goodstuff decks. When you set him up correctly he allows you to draw several free cards per attack off of the top of your opponent's deck. This can be huge if your opponent is playing efficient cards like Brainstorm and Bolt, and I realized that RR Grenzo is a really powerful CA Goblin in the 2-drop slot, which is exactly where I wanted a better CA goblin to be.

    Here's where I'm at with my list...

    23 Lands
    6 Fetch
    3 Badlands
    3 Mountain
    4 Cavern
    4 Waste
    3 Port

    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    3 Mogg Fanatic
    1 Prospector
    (Vial and Lackey are obvious. Fanatic has been incredible and though it does not give CA it does provide value. It's not been uncommon for a Fanatic to deal 2-3 points of combat damage over a game and also kill and X/1. Prospector is great with the high MWM count.)

    2 Warren Weirding
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    1 Stingscourger
    3 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
    1 Cratermaker
    (WW has been very good. Obviously it's great against Reanimator and other fatties, but it's also very good at killing annoying Prowess creatures that are difficult to kill with Gempalms. MWM is very very good against Grixis and 4c Control decks as it trades with Strix and Snap without losing CA. Stingscourger is a concession to the Reanimator and Dark Depths decks. Sometimes you just need to park Vial on 2 if you're going to have a chance to win. RR Grenzo is a fucking house against Goodstuff decks and when you hit with 2 or 3 creatures off of him you're getting a pseudo-Brainstorm off the top of your opponent's deck. It's a very powerful effect. Cratermaker is a concession to Equipment and Eldrazi)

    3 Gempalm
    3 Matron
    3 Chainwhirler
    (Gempalm is still great and the ability to Cycle when you just need to hit a 3rd land is extremely helpful. 3 Matron is enough. I cut Matrons and Ringleaders down to 3 because the deck needs space for utility Gobbos. The format requires it. And the curve gets too high when you're running extra 3 and 4-drops. 3 Chainwhirler has been amazing. Being a one sided sweeper is pretty great on its own, but it also beats like a drum.)

    3 Ringleader
    1 Settler
    1 Trashmaster
    1 Krenko
    (3 Ringleader: See Matron. Also, you don't need the CA from Matron and Ringleader quite so badly when you have so much CA from MWM, RRG, Chainwhirler. 1 Settler is a concession to Dark Depths. Trashmaster is amazing and if you're not playing him you're not doing it right. Krenko is a concession to Eldrazi stompy, but also has huge CA potential)

    1 Earwig Squad
    (Concession to Miracles and Combo)

    SIDEABOARD
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    (For GY and combo decks where you need T1/T0 protection. Also playable against grindier recursion strategies like Lands and P Fire. Faerie and Crypt allow you to keep great hands that don't have GY interaction because you can actually draw into them)
    1 Trashmaster
    1 Pyrokinesis
    (Both are great against midrange decks and anything packing Equipment. Trashmaster #2 also comes in against E Plague and Elesh Norn)
    2 Pithing Needle
    (In theory these are for Planeswalkers. In practice they're not very good. I'm seriously considering trying REB instead)
    3 Chalice of the Void
    (Combo and Miracles and Delver)
    1 Sphere of Resistance
    (Combo)
    1 Blood Moon
    (Lands and Depths)

    Note on Omissions:
    Piledriver - Just a beatstick. Best in multiples. No room for that these days. Also needs hastelords to be really lethal.
    Haste Lords - Just a beatstick. No CA. Too high on the curve. I would love to see them print a 2-drop Lord. That could give Goblins the advantage to play the beatdown. The reality though is that the format has combo decks that kill T2. 3 drop Lords are not fast enough to serve a purpose there, and they give up CA while raising our curve too much against midrange and control.
    Sharpshooter - Not better than Chainwhirler.
    SGC/Kiki-Jiki - Too high on the curve. And yes, Earwig is a 5-drop, but his Prowl is 3.
    There's a lot to unpack here. I share a decent number of your beliefs, and like what you've done here. I agree that lowering the curve is still of the utmost importance: that the hastelords aren't great (though I don't think they're entirely bad): that Cratermaker is maybe a little weaker than we want it to be. Agree that Chainwhirler >>> Sharpshooter. Grenzo is a fucking BEAST.

    I'd add these caveats though: I think having some hastelords is still important, particularly Warchief. Your Prospector in particular gets a lot worse without Warchief. I've been on 2 warchief 1 chieftain and found that to be a decent number. As for Cratermaker, you're right that it's card disadvantage in a lotta cases, and usually mana inefficient (except with Vial). It's a card that does everything we want slightly awkwardly. However, I do think there should be at least 2. I still lose a lot of my matches to Delver and Equipment, and Cratermaker solves both of those problems.

    Things I disagree with:

    Piledriver is bad now: I've actually loved playing 3 Drivers at the moment. So many blue creatures, and it's our best way to beat TNN. Just crushes a lot of the blue fair decks, and frequently trades with fatties like angler in my experience.

    3 Matron: Matron is the best Goblin in my opinion, playing less than 4 is insanity. I'd cut literally any other non-vial card before I cut a Matron. It's the only reason our deck functions.

    Warren Weirding: I think you've managed to make Weirding better than normal by playing an absolute shit ton of removal, but it's still a fairly underpowered card. Since you're playing 0 Piledrivers, I do see its purpose though. Would cut the 2nd one for the Matron though. You're also playing a lotta badlands and fetches for just these and Squad, which doesn't really seem worth it? Deck needs Volrath's Stronghold.

    Settler: Don't think this card is strong enough to see maindeck play, especially without Kiki Jiki. Would be sideboard at best.

    I'd like to see a 4th Ringleader in the board for the hard control matches. You're gonna suffer against Miracles with this build, so you're gonna want 4th Ring pretty bad. I've been playing a bit more with Chalice, and Chalice is a trap. It sucks so much in our sideboards. Cards Goblins really wants right now: Red Elemental Blast, Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction. Guess what doesn't work with Chalice? You've managed to get around the Surgical issue with Leyine and Crypt, but as you said, you want REB right now. Really think you should play Thorns instead. Thorn is also better than Chalice against Miracles imo. I've seen Chalice get beaten so easily by Miracles, Thorn is much more annoying. They can't disenchant it on curve, and it makes slamming B2B/Jace past Port and such very difficult.

    Finally, just to ask: If you've been struggling so much with the Grixis Control/4c Control decks, did you not try Oath of Ghouls or Volrath's? I've just found it so much better with the black cards (Cabal Therapy too). Mono Red Gobs is like 35-40% against those decks, I'm like 75-80%.

    Overall, I agree with your observations in a theoretical sense, just don't quite agree with your proposed solutions.

    <3 <3 3 Fanatic!
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  19. #1759
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    Things I disagree with:

    Piledriver is bad now: I've actually loved playing 3 Drivers at the moment. So many blue creatures, and it's our best way to beat TNN. Just crushes a lot of the blue fair decks, and frequently trades with fatties like angler in my experience.

    3 Matron: Matron is the best Goblin in my opinion, playing less than 4 is insanity. I'd cut literally any other non-vial card before I cut a Matron. It's the only reason our deck functions.

    Warren Weirding: I think you've managed to make Weirding better than normal by playing an absolute shit ton of removal, but it's still a fairly underpowered card. Since you're playing 0 Piledrivers, I do see its purpose though. Would cut the 2nd one for the Matron though. You're also playing a lotta badlands and fetches for just these and Squad, which doesn't really seem worth it? Deck needs Volrath's Stronghold.

    Settler: Don't think this card is strong enough to see maindeck play, especially without Kiki Jiki. Would be sideboard at best.

    I'd like to see a 4th Ringleader in the board for the hard control matches. You're gonna suffer against Miracles with this build, so you're gonna want 4th Ring pretty bad. I've been playing a bit more with Chalice, and Chalice is a trap. It sucks so much in our sideboards. Cards Goblins really wants right now: Red Elemental Blast, Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction. Guess what doesn't work with Chalice? You've managed to get around the Surgical issue with Leyine and Crypt, but as you said, you want REB right now. Really think you should play Thorns instead. Thorn is also better than Chalice against Miracles imo. I've seen Chalice get beaten so easily by Miracles, Thorn is much more annoying. They can't disenchant it on curve, and it makes slamming B2B/Jace past Port and such very difficult.

    Finally, just to ask: If you've been struggling so much with the Grixis Control/4c Control decks, did you not try Oath of Ghouls or Volrath's? I've just found it so much better with the black cards (Cabal Therapy too). Mono Red Gobs is like 35-40% against those decks, I'm like 75-80%.

    Overall, I agree with your observations in a theoretical sense, just don't quite agree with your proposed solutions.

    <3 <3 3 Fanatic!
    3-3 Matron-Ringleader.... I'm not actually missing the extra ones! Part of why I made the cuts is that I had too many Ringleaders draw into Matrons and ringleaders that I could not cast that turn. So far I'm liking it.

    Stronghold - Just picked one up. Totally forgot about it and it will be a fine replacement for 1 Port I'm sure. How's that as a solution to cutting a Ringleader and Matron?

    Settler - I just cut it. When it's good it's amazing, but it was developing SGC syndrome where it sits in your hand all game and you don't have the mana to spend it, and by the time you do have the mana it's not as impactful as it would have been earlier. Really, unless Settler comes in off Lackey T2 on the play it's probably not making an impact on the game. I think cutting it for now is fine. Plus, I'm packing the WWs and Stingscourger to take care of Merrit Lange (potentially).

    Chalice - I've won too many games against Miracles with Chalice to count, but I see your point. Miracles brings in answers to permanents G2, so they'll have more Disenchants, etc, once Chalice comes in than they did before. But they'll have less Counters, making REB better against Jace and Snap. I dig it. I normally don't like leaving mana up for REB but we'll see if I can make the adjustments.

  20. #1760

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    The good
    - I agree with the statements about Piledrivers and lords not being good
    - I like warren weirding
    - I agree with the more recent comment explaining that you cut settler

    The bad
    - I agree with the suggestion that you want 4 Matrons
    - The 3 Fanatic / 1 Cratermaker split seems weird/wrong. (Fanatic seems underpowered to me in general)

    The I don't know
    - 3 Havoc Raiser seems like a lot, some other people have been enthusiastic about this card but it didn't impress me in the limited number of games that I tried it.

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