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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #901

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Murderous Redcap is a weird card.
    It isn't a very good card compared with Krenko or Siege Gang, but after comparing all of them, looking at the strong points and the weaknesses it is a very strong card.
    Lets review all of then:
    Siege Gang: ETB effect, comes with 3 goblins, is a 2/2 creature that can shoot some targets, for 5cmc. He is a very powerfull creature, a great finisher, that alone can win games. If you look at my last tournament, i had to make a lot of mulligans despite having 23 lands, and against a wasteland deck i will probably never reach 5cmc, connecting a lackey against a fair deck i don't even remember my last one, and ticking vial to 5 is terrible because you wont take more advantage of her.
    Krenko: 4cmc pretty good because you still use vial, a 3/3 creature that is a one man army, creating 1/1 goblins, particularly perfect having a bunch of goblins and an hasty lord in the table. Do you know how many times does a hasty lord sticks on the table for more than 1 turn!?!?! Or the amount of times that i untap with krenko??? Usually that only happens when opponent has a -1/-1 instant speed. Also the times that i remember winning with him, i would win even if i didn't have him on the table.
    Murderous Redcap: 4cmc like Krenko, ETB effect that Tarfires, when dies comes as 1/1 (like war marshall) and does ping one more damage. In middle of game when we are refueling a tarfire my come to hand, but definitely we would prefer a creature, and the reason why i am loving him so much, he allows combat tricks through vial, also can be a 4->1 giving us a lot of virtual card advantage almost like ringleader (can kill a 2 creature, block and kill another, ping one more creature to death, and we still have a 1/1), giving that turn around that most of the times need, also replaced in my list 1 tarfire, but yet in middle long game acts like one. He is not better than the others, but how legacy stands now, might work as what we need (virtual card advantage). Also, he is the only Goblin that we have that can kill a Gurmag Angler (using vial) and we still have a 1/1 creature.

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  2. #902

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    If a {T} ability is too hard and 5 mana is too much then is Beetleback Chief on the table? Goblin Goon can also vial in on 4 and kill a Gurmag Angler and then you even have a 6/6 left over...

    I get the appeal of all the points people have made but I would always play Lightning Crafter first

  3. #903

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Redcap doesn’t kill SFM/DRS on curve, which is the best time to kill them. Correct?

  4. #904

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodieyost View Post
    Redcap doesn’t kill SFM/DRS on curve, which is the best time to kill them. Correct?
    No it doesnt kill on the curve, but for that we have the tarfire and gempalm. But at middle game kills them and is a creature to keep pressure opponents.

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  5. #905

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I will put slips of paper in a couple cards to test Redcap and see if it’s where I want to be. Swords or Terminus make it feel pretty bad, and it doesn’t have much game against Combo (where we should be trying to hedge).

    Seems like more grind for the grind MUs than we really need, especially since most grindy MUs are just cold to a resolved Blood Moon and can’t keep up with uncounterable Ringleaders/Matrons.

    Granted, I have only jammed the deck for a few days in total, but I know as a Storm player I’m completely okay with my opponent resolving a shock-stick for 4mana.

  6. #906
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins



    This little guy has always been just short of being playable.

    I have 3 in my current build cos it's 2/2 body is fantastic rn. Might be worth a shot over murderous redcap.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  7. #907

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post


    This little guy has always been just short of being playable.

    I have 3 in my current build cos it's 2/2 body is fantastic rn. Might be worth a shot over murderous redcap.
    I would play it just for the flavor text :D

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  8. #908

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by menph View Post
    I would play it just for the flavor text :D

    Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk
    I don’t think he’s bad necessarily but he only does the tarfire impression by sacrificing himself, which basically makes him a 1RR tarfire. Not at all a fan

  9. #909
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodieyost View Post
    I don’t think he’s bad necessarily but he only does the tarfire impression by sacrificing himself, which basically makes him a 1RR tarfire. Not at all a fan
    My current list has 2 tarfire and 3 gempalm already. Ember Hauler is just additional removal if required, but it's more about lowering the curve and having more creatures than can attack through/into a DRS.

    Don't get me wrong, this card is not really Legacy playable but neither is the rest of the deck so
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  10. #910

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I don't think Ember Hauler is terrible (and always interested in trying different 2-drops) but I am leery of things that cost RR.
    The 2/3 Tarfire/Gempalm split is interesting imo. I used to play a split with more Gempalm (a fairly long time ago) I feel that the tempo of the Shock is too strong in this deck that doesn't have many ways to profitably interact in the earlygame, especially in modern legacy with Delver/DRS everywhere.

  11. #911

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I don't think Ember Hauler is terrible (and always interested in trying different 2-drops) but I am leery of things that cost RR.
    The 2/3 Tarfire/Gempalm split is interesting imo. I used to play a split with more Gempalm (a fairly long time ago) I feel that the tempo of the Shock is too strong in this deck that doesn't have many ways to profitably interact in the earlygame, especially in modern legacy with Delver/DRS everywhere.
    Gempalm for X>2 hasn’t been relevant for me yet, most creatures I run into are X/1 or X/2, with few exception. I did use Gempalm to deal 3 damage to a batterskull then tarfire, but X only needed to be 2 there.

  12. #912
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I don't think Ember Hauler is terrible (and always interested in trying different 2-drops) but I am leery of things that cost RR.
    The 2/3 Tarfire/Gempalm split is interesting imo. I used to play a split with more Gempalm (a fairly long time ago) I feel that the tempo of the Shock is too strong in this deck that doesn't have many ways to profitably interact in the earlygame, especially in modern legacy with Delver/DRS everywhere.
    Yeah ditto. I went down to 2 ports to accomodate Ember's rather difficult casting cpst. The list I'm going to be working with is very similar to Hanni's list with 0 bombs outside of Ringleader, with the 23rd land (Pendelhaven) and 2 Siege-Gang's in the board for grindy matchups.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  13. #913
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Yeah ditto. I went down to 2 ports to accomodate Ember's rather difficult casting cpst. The list I'm going to be working with is very similar to Hanni's list with 0 bombs outside of Ringleader, with the 23rd land (Pendelhaven) and 2 Siege-Gang's in the board for grindy matchups.
    I'm also running 3 Ember Hauler right now, for the sole purpose of being a 2/2 that has some upside. It's also come up a few times that it's an uncounterable Tarfire without requiring board presence.

    If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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  14. #914

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    What is everyone cutting for ember hauler?

  15. #915

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    If we're in the market for 2/2s for 2 with some kind of upside, I really recommend Grenzo, Havoc Raiser. He's admittedly inconsistent like his first iteration, but can potentially win games you would have absolutely 0 chance to win otherwise. I've gotten crop rotation against turbo depths in order to grab a wasteland, I've gotten duress out of storm and also exiled tendrils game 1, abrupt decayed engineered plague, cast goyf against Jund, cast mother of runes against D&T and then got to kiki her later, letting me hold off Batterskull, Jitte on a Prelate, and SoFI on a Stoneforge...The effect he can have is quite powerful. Our legion of leftover 1/1s actually becomes a potent force when they have text that essentially is; "hit opponent, 2/3rds of the time draw a spell that you must cast this turn". It's unfortunate he doesn't have first strike or menace, but even without he's really beneficial to the go-wide plan.

    I kinda like the idea of ember hauler, and can see playing him. What we really just need is a strictly better mogg fanatic that shocks!

    I also like the build idea of no maindeck finishers, but stocking a few in the board. Keeps the deck leaner, which it really needs right now.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

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  16. #916

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    If we're in the market for 2/2s for 2 with some kind of upside, I really recommend Grenzo, Havoc Raiser. He's admittedly inconsistent like his first iteration, but can potentially win games you would have absolutely 0 chance to win otherwise. I've gotten crop rotation against turbo depths in order to grab a wasteland, I've gotten duress out of storm and also exiled tendrils game 1, abrupt decayed engineered plague, cast goyf against Jund, cast mother of runes against D&T and then got to kiki her later, letting me hold off Batterskull, Jitte on a Prelate, and SoFI on a Stoneforge...The effect he can have is quite powerful. Our legion of leftover 1/1s actually becomes a potent force when they have text that essentially is; "hit opponent, 2/3rds of the time draw a spell that you must cast this turn". It's unfortunate he doesn't have first strike or menace, but even without he's really beneficial to the go-wide plan.

    I kinda like the idea of ember hauler, and can see playing him. What we really just need is a strictly better mogg fanatic that shocks!

    I also like the build idea of no maindeck finishers, but stocking a few in the board. Keeps the deck leaner, which it really needs right now.
    I can't see why we would play Ember Hauler. Just doesn't work for me. I like Havoc Raiser, but the inconsistency would drive me insane.

  17. #917

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    There are no reasons to play Hember... I don't know why you guys are arguing about him, when there's not enough space neither to play all the strongest cards for this deck..
    Just put more piledrivers if you need a T2drop, or a MWM, or ports, or winstigator... do we really need a tarfire T3 when we already have gempalm and tarfires? Hember seems one of the worst choice for this deck imo

  18. #918

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodieyost View Post
    I can't see why we would play Ember Hauler. Just doesn't work for me. I like Havoc Raiser, but the inconsistency would drive me insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlock96 View Post
    There are no reasons to play Hember... I don't know why you guys are arguing about him, when there's not enough space neither to play all the strongest cards for this deck..
    Just put more piledrivers if you need a T2drop, or a MWM, or ports, or winstigator... do we really need a tarfire T3 when we already have gempalm and tarfires? Hember seems one of the worst choice for this deck imo
    Oooooh man I'm not a fan of Ember Hauler either but you folk really need to put some thought into it. Aside from Wizards never printing any good Goblin cards, attitudes like this are the reasons the deck will never evolve and become better. We need to be willing to try out of the box things before dismissing them!

    SO here's some honest to goodness reasons to try playing Ember Hauler (I bolded ones where Ember Hauler definitely loses out and isn't conditional):

    1) Comparing to Gempalm Incinerator:
    -Ember Hauler always does 2 damage to a creature/Gempalm Incinerator has the possibility to do more than that but cannot remove DRS or flipped Delver with only 1 Goblin on board.
    -Ember Hauler damage can go face/Gempalm Incinerator cannot
    -Ember Hauler can be used as a body before removal/Gempalm Incinerator cannot be a body if used as removal
    -Ember Hauler doesn't die to Engineered Plague effects in a pinch/Gempalm Incinerator does
    -Ember Hauler is a T2 play, something that Goblins sorely lacks (MWM is 'okay' and Piledriver isn't good on its own, Ember Hauler IS)/Gempalm is never played as a body 95 percent of the time
    -Ember Hauler does not require other board presence to be removal/Gempalm does require board presence to be removal
    -Ember Hauler does not draw a card/Gempalm does draw a card

    2) Comparing to Tarfire:
    -Ember Hauler is a body for Gempalm Incinerator/Chieftain/Piledriver/Krenko effects or even for blocking and regular pressure / Tarfire is not
    -Ember Hauler is uncounterable with Cavern or Aether Vial activation/Tarfire is not
    -Ember Hauler gets around Chalice of the Void on 1 (Eldrazi matchup)/Tarfire does not
    -Ember Hauler overall costs 3 mana to do 2 damage if that's the exact effect you need/Tarfire costs 1
    -Ember Hauler doesn't remove a T1 DRS/Delver/Mother of Runes/ Tarfire does remove these

    Misc:
    -Ember Hauler can be used as a chump blocker, then sacrificed before damage to remove something else (eg, block a Gurmag, kill a Delver). This is just as good as if not MWM in these kind of situations.
    -Ember Hauler is versatile - it is both a threat and a removal, similar to how Seal of Fire functions. While the removal on its body is telegraphed, your opponent has to play into it or wait to play around it which buys us precious time for Aether Vial ticks or mana development.
    -Ember Hauler has a RR mana cost, making it difficult to cast in 4x Wasteland/4x Rishadan Port builds (Karakas, Pendelhaven too)
    -If you play a version with Kolaghan's Command, you can find situations where recurring Ember Hauler would be useful (opponent at 4, neither Tarfire nor Gempalm can be brought back to do lethal).
    -In a Chrome Mox build, Ember Hauler CAN remove DRS/other blocker on T2 to sneak Lackey through (Gempalm cannot unless you have a 2nd Lackey to power it).

    Many of these are niche scenarios but we are playing a toolbox deck. Dismissing Ember Hauler outright is not correct but I can't say I'm EXCITED about him being in my deck. He's just another option for us to try. We need to be willing to experiment and hopefully the next time a 2-drop Goblin gets printed it is actually so good that, yes, we can outright say that Ember Hauler isn't good enough. In the meantime though, let's keep trying different options. Personally I'll be trying that outlandish No Cavern/ R/B build soon myself, it looks interesting.

    Speaking of, since I've written all this I'm going to buy 4x Foil Ember Hauler to test out in the deck. B)

  19. #919

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Pyre View Post
    Oooooh man I'm not a fan of Ember Hauler either but you folk really need to put some thought into it. Aside from Wizards never printing any good Goblin cards, attitudes like this are the reasons the deck will never evolve and become better. We need to be willing to try out of the box things before dismissing them!

    SO here's some honest to goodness reasons to try playing Ember Hauler (I bolded ones where Ember Hauler definitely loses out and isn't conditional):

    1) Comparing to Gempalm Incinerator:
    -Ember Hauler always does 2 damage to a creature/Gempalm Incinerator has the possibility to do more than that but cannot remove DRS or flipped Delver with only 1 Goblin on board.
    -Ember Hauler damage can go face/Gempalm Incinerator cannot
    -Ember Hauler can be used as a body before removal/Gempalm Incinerator cannot be a body if used as removal
    -Ember Hauler doesn't die to Engineered Plague effects in a pinch/Gempalm Incinerator does
    -Ember Hauler is a T2 play, something that Goblins sorely lacks (MWM is 'okay' and Piledriver isn't good on its own, Ember Hauler IS)/Gempalm is never played as a body 95 percent of the time
    -Ember Hauler does not require other board presence to be removal/Gempalm does require board presence to be removal
    -Ember Hauler does not draw a card/Gempalm does draw a card

    2) Comparing to Tarfire:
    -Ember Hauler is a body for Gempalm Incinerator/Chieftain/Piledriver/Krenko effects or even for blocking and regular pressure / Tarfire is not
    -Ember Hauler is uncounterable with Cavern or Aether Vial activation/Tarfire is not
    -Ember Hauler gets around Chalice of the Void on 1 (Eldrazi matchup)/Tarfire does not
    -Ember Hauler overall costs 3 mana to do 2 damage if that's the exact effect you need/Tarfire costs 1
    -Ember Hauler doesn't remove a T1 DRS/Delver/Mother of Runes/ Tarfire does remove these

    Misc:
    -Ember Hauler can be used as a chump blocker, then sacrificed before damage to remove something else (eg, block a Gurmag, kill a Delver). This is just as good as if not MWM in these kind of situations.
    -Ember Hauler is versatile - it is both a threat and a removal, similar to how Seal of Fire functions. While the removal on its body is telegraphed, your opponent has to play into it or wait to play around it which buys us precious time for Aether Vial ticks or mana development.
    -Ember Hauler has a RR mana cost, making it difficult to cast in 4x Wasteland/4x Rishadan Port builds (Karakas, Pendelhaven too)
    -If you play a version with Kolaghan's Command, you can find situations where recurring Ember Hauler would be useful (opponent at 4, neither Tarfire nor Gempalm can be brought back to do lethal).
    -In a Chrome Mox build, Ember Hauler CAN remove DRS/other blocker on T2 to sneak Lackey through (Gempalm cannot unless you have a 2nd Lackey to power it).

    Many of these are niche scenarios but we are playing a toolbox deck. Dismissing Ember Hauler outright is not correct but I can't say I'm EXCITED about him being in my deck. He's just another option for us to try. We need to be willing to experiment and hopefully the next time a 2-drop Goblin gets printed it is actually so good that, yes, we can outright say that Ember Hauler isn't good enough. In the meantime though, let's keep trying different options. Personally I'll be trying that outlandish No Cavern/ R/B build soon myself, it looks interesting.

    Speaking of, since I've written all this I'm going to buy 4x Foil Ember Hauler to test out in the deck. B)
    "Wizards not printing new goblins" doesn't mean necessarly you have to play clunky cards :/
    I would focus more on finding the appropriate list for this meta instead :)
    I mean: should we cut piledrivers for more utility? Should we try ancient tombs? Should we run the winstigator list? And so on..
    I know you're trying new things, and that's good, but I think that our pool of cards is already well defined, and is really really big even without Hember

  20. #920

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlock96 View Post
    "Wizards not printing new goblins" doesn't mean necessarly you have to play clunky cards :/
    Just focusing on this point since the rest of your ideas are just as legitimate for trying new things. I don't think Ember Hauler is as clunky as it looks, as per the gigantic list I just posted. It has a lot of utility that both Tarfire and Gempalm don't cover. This isn't going to fit well in a 'no frills' list with no singletons that runs 4x Piledriver, but if you're reaching for a decent 2 drop that has utility (removal/endgame reach) then this is the best we have right now.

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