[Deck] Vial Goblins

[owerbart]

any testing with volley master?

[1GoblinLackey]

Its an interesting point about a classical build player vision. But instigator do a lot of this things too...

Instigator applies pressure very differently from Piledriver. Its "damage" is extremely contingent on the context of your hand, whereas Piledriver only cares about the board, and attacks via the life total, not card advantage or tempo, which is something we honestly lack. Sometimes you don't need to gain board advantage or pull ahead on cards, you just need them dead right that second. Winstigator is generally better on turn 2, but is a pretty significantly worse topdeck in the majority of situations. Winstigator hits for 2 on an empty board compared to piledriver's 1, but piledriver scales sooo much better. I'm not a huge fan of piledriver or instigator, but I definitely don't think they should be viewed similarly. They fulfill completely different functions despite the same CMC and generally support aggression in a generic sense.

[Bichon_Blitz]

any testing with volley master?

I don't plan on even testing him. I suppose there are cases where he may be better than Gempalm, but those are pretty few and far between...the 4/2 body, meh we got Chainwhirler now and the 3/3 first strike is more balanced.

[Knighthawk]

You goblin lords are awesome. So much great info.

I had a chance to play a match vs infect this evening, honestly got lucky throughout as they never had a pump spell outside of hierarch.he dazed me a few times each game taking out vial or smugglers copter, eventually was able to wipe away hierarchs and agent with a chainwhirler, but was still worried about inkmoths. I had a lackey in play and could cast matron, did so wondering how o don't just potentially die vs a pump spell......Traahmaster. Goblin Garboder saves the day. I keep anything else blown up with tarfire or incinerator, and trashman keeps the inkmoths at bay.

Game 2 goes about the same. Stay alive and get trash master out. All is well.

1 main/1 board for now. I know it's just one match but am super happy to see a situation like that, no other card I can think of would have handled that board.

I'm liking the feel of 4 gempalms, but may add a second tarfire somewhere. The deck just feels nice.
Played against burn also, even though I opened myself up to taking 12 in one shot from double price of progress, pulled out the match when they were stuck on multiple smash to smithereens vs my non artifact draw.

[kombatkiwi]

@Hanni
"False dilemma how? If you play less Piledrivers, you have to play more 4-5 drops, it's a direct correlation. Sure, you could play other 2 drops instead, but I don't want to. Case closed"
Nobody who is saying Piledriver is bad is saying that you are supposed to replace them with like 2 SGC 1 Krenko and 1 Kiki-Jiki, this is an irrelevant strawman

I'm not going to @ people specifically for the rest of this but you can probably figure out what I'm replying to

- The argument for Piledriver 'helping to race combo' is kind of true but everyone knows combo is a shit matchup anyway so rather than try to put a bandaid on a bullet wound maybe the bandaids should be replaced with something else. If racing combo was the way to beat it then people would be playing Goblin Guide or Bushwhacker or War Strike in their sideboards but nobody does this. There is some merit to this argument, but Rabblemaster is the better solution because it provides a similarly fast clock without needing any help, and it's not significantly slowed by exchanging your goblins for disruption spells.

- Copter is an okay idea, I think it's worse in Goblins than Merfolk for several reasons. 1: Not a goblin (Ringleader, and its inclusion is also possibly crowding out tutor targets). 2: Merfolk is also a much more aggressive deck with a low curve and no card advantage element so both the fact that it gives your creatures pseudo-haste and gives you card filtering with the loot is far more relevant in that deck than it is here. I think playing 1-2 copies is probably fine (especially if your list has a lot of MWM in it) but I don't know if its the best choice.

- "If my Piledrivers are dying to removal, then my Kiki and Chainwhirler are surviving, so Piledriver is good" - this argument sucks, can be used to justify almost any borderline-playable creature

- "Piledriver is fantastic with Kiki-Jiki, tons of damage" Rabblemaster is the same, Chieftain is close.

- Yes Piledriver is especially bad against DNT. I will concede that Rabblemaster isn't very good there either and this is one of the only matchups that I board it out.

- Piledriver looks good against TNN because it has protection from blue. The problem is that all your other Goblins don't have protection from blue so in order to attack with Piledriver you have to throw your other Goblins into the TNN abyss. If you try and do this on-curve it's likely that you won't force enough damage through with the Piledriver before you run out of cards, and if you try and build up a big board before you start swinging then when you do finally attack, Piledriver is going to eat a removal spell. The only matchup where this TNN argument actually makes sense is vs Merfolk because they have no lategame (so it's good for you if they are trying to block instead of attacking) and no removal.

- Jim Davis is notorious for being resistant to change and stubbornly trying to win with the same set of cards he was successful with years ago. This isn't necessarily a good argument against Piledriver but I think it's worth mentioning. It wouldn't surprise me if other people were similarly stuck.

- "Some matchups are difficult to win when all you have left is a bunch of 1/1s" don't replace Piledriver with Raging Goblin then, but there are other options available...

- "Grinding: This isn't something that Piledriver is particularly spectacular at..." Piledriver is SHIT at grinding. It's worse at grinding than the expensive finishers because it dies to every removal while providing no value (contrary to something like Kiki Jiki or Lightning Crafter or hasted Krenko or SGC). But it's also worse than other cheap things like Chainwhirler (or Rabblemaster) because in a simplified game state it's a vanilla 1/2. Just got Deluged/Deeded/Marsh Casualties? Squire. Hymn Snap Hymn? Squire. Last Hope eating all your 1/1s? Squire. If you have 2 Chainwhirlers then your opponent is under a decent amount of pressure to kill both of them, but if you have a Chainwhirler and a Piledriver then when your opponent kills the Chainwhirler they also get to kill 2/3 of the Piledriver for free. Cards that require a critical mass of other resources to do anything are awful in grindy games by definition.

- "Instigator applies pressure very differently from Piledriver. Its "damage" is extremely contingent on the context of your hand, whereas Piledriver only cares about the board..." I mostly agree with this post but it misses the important point that the power of both cards are dependent on having a bunch of extra resources available, meaning they are both exploitable by interactive decks, which is largely the reason why I don't like either of them.

- I'm not testing Volley Veteran either, 4 mana is too expensive for what it is/does

IN SUMMARY:
- The 'Helps to race / turn the corner' argument has some merit, but
A) I think that Rabblemaster is the better card for this role by a large margin
B) I think that Piledriver is enough of a liability that my 2nd choice would be to play neither (something like the Mengucci / bob2008 lists)

The above report about Trashmaster is so sick, there are so many unexpected situations where the card makes Scrapper look like absolute garbage (Trash?) and I'm really excited to play with it

[Sagratho]

(...)

As I said... its an interesting point in a classical build... Look to instigator, thinking in a deck without sinergy with it, no play set of chieftain... no Chrome Mox and looking to mana cost reducer of warchief. Its an interpretation exercise. In this world its obvius that piledriver shines and will ever shine if keep looking to a deck using classical build point.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Expect to see more artifacts in general with no k-command running rampant...Trashman is real.

I want to let the piledriver count die down some (the results coming in speak for themselves, personally I would never exceed 3), but I cannot imagine playing Rabblemaster over him...Forcing all your other goblins to attack into a goyf or Thalia or something like that is just plain stupid, especially if we want to control the board state. Rabblemaster can hinder that gameplan. I believe if he did not have that line of text we might've been playing him all along.

[kombatkiwi]

Expect to see more artifacts in general with no k-command running rampant...Trashman is real.

I want to let the piledriver count die down some (the results coming in speak for themselves, personally I would never exceed 3), but I cannot imagine playing Rabblemaster over him...Forcing all your other goblins to attack into a goyf or Thalia or something like that is just plain stupid, especially if we want to control the board state. Rabblemaster can hinder that gameplan. I believe if he did not have that line of text we might've been playing him all along.

After Matron has ETBd it's just a 1/1 Goblin, no different to the token that Rabblemaster gives you for free to replace it. Ringleader is just the same thing with a +1+1 counter on it. MWM are literally just more 1/1s and the really fragile things like Sharpshooter and Kiki Jiki never have to attack anyway.

In the rare situations where attacking with all your Goblins would be not worth it, then Piledriver would also be bad. You can just not cast the Rabblemaster. Being able to cast a 1/2 Squire that you don't want to attack with is not a significant endorsement for Piledriver

[Secretly.A.Bee]

After Matron has ETBd it's just a 1/1 Goblin, no different to the token that Rabblemaster gives you for free to replace it. Ringleader is just the same thing with a +1+1 counter on it. MWM are literally just more 1/1s and the really fragile things like Sharpshooter and Kiki Jiki never have to attack anyway.

In the rare situations where attacking with all your Goblins would be not worth it, then Piledriver would also be bad. You can just not cast the Rabblemaster. Being able to cast a 1/2 Squire that you don't want to attack with is not a significant endorsement for Piledriver

Rabblemaster will never make it into a goblin list of mine due to that one line of text. It takes away my ability to maintain my board presence, and in a deck built the way these lists are, I can't give up that much control.

I don't care the correlation you try to draw between matron and a rabble token, it's nothing the same in my opinion. My favorite deck is DnT, and that alone lets me know I don't want to play Rabblemaster.

I encourage you to put up some results with the list built the way you have been posting to back up your arguments and reasonings. People might be more likely to entertain your thought process.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

On Piledriver:

We all know he's aggressive and bad at grinding. We also all know that Rabblemaster is better at grinding, but the point that no one is saying that I care for, is his CMC.

When I compare Rabblemaster to Piledriver the number one thing that turns me off of Rabblemaster is the CMC of 3, not his must attack ability. The deck is glutted with 3s already, Warchief/Chieftain, Matron, Sharp/Chain, and we are at 9-10 already, that mixed with Piledriver coming in for 1 off a Warchief can bring the deck from 0 to 100 in short time, where as the mana investment for 3, or 2 in this case just doesn't compare.

Yes I board out several of him in fair match-ups, but just actually conceding game 1s against Combo is choosing to lose percentages. We often joke that it's an auto loss, but the reality is that it is closer to 10-15% chance of victory. By removing the cheap, aggressive slant Piledriver provides we lose some of those percentages, and they do add up. I do not think Rabblemaster compares in this scenario due to the higher CMC.

Game 1 Piledriver is certainly acceptable due to the way people build decks. Game 1 each player is attempting to enable their plan, being pro-active wins games. Game 2 things tend get slower as people bring in defenses towards other players, making piledriver worse.

@Secretly.A.Bee Keep it civil man, refute points with logic, not simply dismissing them.

I also would like to see some games with a rabblemaster. I will try your list kiwi tonight or tomorrow, and come back with another point of view. Mind posting a list?

[kombatkiwi]

I would love to play more but all my Goblins cards are overseas and I only have RUG with me atm
I think SAB criticism is civil enough, it's fine to ask for results

This is the list that I liked before Core19/DRS Ban

3 Badlands
3 Mountain
5 Fetches
4 Cavern
4 Port
4 Waste

4 Vial
4 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding

1 Chirurgeon
4 Lackey
---
1 MWM
1 Sparksmith
1 Stingscourger
---
4 Matron
3 Rabblemaster
1 Chieftain
1 Sharpshooter
1 Chainwhirler
1 Gempalm
---
4 Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Lightning Crafter
---
1 Kiki Jiki
1 Earwig Squad

Notes:
- Kiki Jiki could possibly be SGC, not sure about this (Crafter is still good even without Kiki)
- Scrapper should be Trashmaster now
- It's possible that with Chainwhirler now the Sharpshooter is unnecessary
- It's possible that with Trashmaster now the Chieftain is unnecessary
- 4 Tarfire might not be needed anymore but it's still excellent vs Mother of Runes, Stoneforge, Delver of Secrets...
- I think the only things I would want to add by cutting these cards are more MWMs and Gempalm Incinerators: not interested in playing Piledriver, Warchief, Prospector. Pyrokinesis might be fine (Everyone else seems to rate this card very highly so I think I might be slightly biased against playing non-Goblin spells but I've never felt like I needed it).
- Rabblemaster should work in MonoR (or whatever splash you like) but I think black is the best pairing because Rabblemaster synergizes with cheap removal (Weirding). (So I guess you could just play Pyrokinesis instead)
- As you can see, I cut most of the lords to reduce the glut at 3. Rabble is powerful enough by itself not to need any lord support. It's nice to lay down a flurry of attackers with a warchief in play but without lackey this is still only happening turn 4 at the earliest. With lackey you can get some very fast starts but you need like lackey into lord into more stuff and then we're back to talking about percentages

[jonathon.lenz]

The civil comment was more about keeping this a space to freely discuss ideas. I don't think it crossed the line, but it felt "heated". Better safe than sad.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've been told I come across as blunt and I can agree, but I don't agree that I was uncivil. Apologies to those who didn't read it that way.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I've been told I come across as blunt and I can agree, but I don't agree that I was uncivil. Apologies to those who didn't read it that way.

I do agree with you though about Rabblemaster. I haven't actually tried it though, so all I have to go on is theory, not testing. So I'll test it and try to put my bias aside.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I have played Goblin Rabblemaster both in Dragon Stompy as well as a spot in Czech Pile (it was just okay in Pile, slotted it in while trying to find something to replace TNN, due to TNN dying to neg effects all day long). It's fine in D. Stompy because of the nature of Stompy Lists being disruption plus threat. Indeed, these experiences showed me how I should view Rabble, even if I didn't test them in the exact context of the goblins archetype. This is how I felt comfortable letting myself sound certain of my opinion.

Sometimes I don't write it all out (my reasonings for my opinions) because I am on my phone and hate thumb-typing. I'm almost as bad about showing my work (so to speak) in algebra.

-abc

[jonathon.lenz]

I can appreciate that. Thanks for writing it out. I ran it in Mogg Stompy a while back anf it was super good there, at least in my local meta.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I can appreciate that. Thanks for writing it out. I ran it in Mogg Stompy a while back anf it was super good there, at least in my local meta.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

I should probably mention, Jonathon Lenz is my real name, Tapatalk was being a jerk.

[egoblinsw]

If you want to win matches vs combo, I recommend tipping the MD way in the anti-fair direction, and side boarding heavily, with Black sideboard. I find that a 12-13 cards of mismatched combo hate (going in for removal and ringleaders, as well as sometimes vial) is enough to give you a good shot. What we don't want to do is to concede our fair deck match ups by diluting the inevitability of our value.

1) we should be playing more discard. My most successful events have been with 3-6 discard spells (mix of thought seize and therapy.)
2) Kiki and settler are a great punch-out to combo g1, and are decent in the fair deck mana grind as well. Kiki especially is amazing, I never leave home without him. Kiki lets us double down on our hate, grinds, and kills quickly with lords, sharpshooter, etc.
3) diversify hate, play a 2-1-1 split of grafdigger's, surgical, and faerie macabre, in any order. They all are good against re animator, but each splash hates another archetype as well. Similarly, run the whole gauntlet of tribal removal. 1-2 each of sparksmith, tar fire, weir ding, sharpshooter, stingscourger, chainwhirler will make Matron a much better card then playing one full play set.
4) remember, we're not the best fast deck, or the best control/mana denial deck. If it is correct to play goblins, then it's because we have unique strengths, which are a clean pivot between several strategies, and a tutor package that can be accelerated by our 1-mana plays. Don't miss out on broken lackeys! Keep playing big, impactful goblins.

[kombatkiwi]

If you want to win matches vs combo, I recommend tipping the MD way in the anti-fair direction, and side boarding heavily, with Black sideboard. I find that a 12-13 cards of mismatched combo hate (going in for removal and ringleaders, as well as sometimes vial) is enough to give you a good shot. What we don't want to do is to concede our fair deck match ups by diluting the inevitability of our value.

1) we should be playing more discard. My most successful events have been with 3-6 discard spells (mix of thought seize and therapy.)
2) Kiki and settler are a great punch-out to combo g1, and are decent in the fair deck mana grind as well. Kiki especially is amazing, I never leave home without him. Kiki lets us double down on our hate, grinds, and kills quickly with lords, sharpshooter, etc.
3) diversify hate, play a 2-1-1 split of grafdigger's, surgical, and faerie macabre, in any order. They all are good against re animator, but each splash hates another archetype as well. Similarly, run the whole gauntlet of tribal removal. 1-2 each of sparksmith, tar fire, weir ding, sharpshooter, stingscourger, chainwhirler will make Matron a much better card then playing one full play set.
4) remember, we're not the best fast deck, or the best control/mana denial deck. If it is correct to play goblins, then it's because we have unique strengths, which are a clean pivot between several strategies, and a tutor package that can be accelerated by our 1-mana plays. Don't miss out on broken lackeys! Keep playing big, impactful goblins.

I agree with almost all of this post.
I'm unsure if settler is actually good or not but the rest of this seems to mirror my opinions about the deck.

[Darkgobs]

If you want to win matches vs combo, I recommend tipping the MD way in the anti-fair direction, and side boarding heavily, with Black sideboard. I find that a 12-13 cards of mismatched combo hate (going in for removal and ringleaders, as well as sometimes vial) is enough to give you a good shot. What we don't want to do is to concede our fair deck match ups by diluting the inevitability of our value.

1) we should be playing more discard. My most successful events have been with 3-6 discard spells (mix of thought seize and therapy.)
2) Kiki and settler are a great punch-out to combo g1, and are decent in the fair deck mana grind as well. Kiki especially is amazing, I never leave home without him. Kiki lets us double down on our hate, grinds, and kills quickly with lords, sharpshooter, etc.
3) diversify hate, play a 2-1-1 split of grafdigger's, surgical, and faerie macabre, in any order. They all are good against re animator, but each splash hates another archetype as well. Similarly, run the whole gauntlet of tribal removal. 1-2 each of sparksmith, tar fire, weir ding, sharpshooter, stingscourger, chainwhirler will make Matron a much better card then playing one full play set.
4) remember, we're not the best fast deck, or the best control/mana denial deck. If it is correct to play goblins, then it's because we have unique strengths, which are a clean pivot between several strategies, and a tutor package that can be accelerated by our 1-mana plays. Don't miss out on broken lackeys! Keep playing big, impactful goblins.

1/ Interesting post!


2/ Also, it makes me wonder what Rb lists looks like today. I used to play 4 Cabal Therapy alongside with 3-4 MWM, and it felt great. Then I guess we want some Earing Squad in the SB. It's always been a question between Rb or Rw lists when we want weapons to beat combo, aka Thalia vs. Discard / Earing. I really like the black splash but 1) it is a bit harder to play the deck (because of Therapy), and 2) Thalia works really well with our Vial/Waste/Port package. Do you guys have any post-ban though about the pro/con of Rb/Rw lists?

sidenote: if combo wasn't a thing, I would play a mono-R list 24/7... so imho when we splash, it implies that we still want some significant % against combo.