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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #1841
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    the other thing I don't like about playing too many Expert is the RB manacost
    It's a RB deck now! Get with it. You're running enough B cards that your manabase should be able to support any number of ME.
    My manabase, for reference:
    Lands [25]
    1 Arid Mesa
    1 Karakas
    1 Prismatic Vista
    1 Swamp
    2 Ancient Tomb
    3 Mountain
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland

  2. #1842

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    It's a RB deck now! Get with it. You're running enough B cards that your manabase should be able to support any number of ME.
    My manabase, for reference:
    Lands [25]
    1 Arid Mesa
    1 Karakas
    1 Prismatic Vista
    1 Swamp
    2 Ancient Tomb
    3 Mountain
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    well, yeah you can cut ports for black sources, but overall I don't think this is worth it if you're doing it just to support 1-2 Munitions Expert

  3. #1843

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    well, yeah you can cut ports for black sources, but overall I don't think this is worth it if you're doing it just to support 1-2 Munitions Expert
    It's for Warren Weirding, Slingback Lieutenant and Earwig Squad, too.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  4. #1844

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    It's for Warren Weirding, Slingback Lieutenant and Earwig Squad, too.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    I'm aware of which cards in the list have black mana symbols on them but all those 3 can be cast off 1 badlands + anything.
    Sling and squad also have higher cmc so you have more time to find the black source and they are also castable off cavern, so they don't need the help as much (at least compared to weirding), so I think you can play them in a list with 4 waste and 4 ports without worrying about the mana

    On the other hand I think trying to play more cards that cost BR is a much greater demand on your coloured sources

  5. #1845
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    How best to deal with the Arcanist Problem?
    There seem to be several strategies for dealing with it. First off is standard Goblins spot removal. This is a bit of a problem though because our spot removal options aren't great at dealing with an x/3 T2. A combination of Fanatic/Gempalm/Lackey attacks/MunE can all add up to dealing with a T2 Arcanist, but the pieces need to be in place and you need to dodge early spot removal or counters from the Arcanist player. This is the line that fits the standard builds of Goblins, but it's also unreliable against an early Arcanist. It also isn't an option if you keep a slow Vial hand and you don't have an early Goblin in play.

    The second way to deal with Arcanist is with 1:1 removal that is more powerful than the standard options, but comes with drawbacks of its own. Cards like Nameless Inversion and Warren Weirding can both kill a T2 Arcanist flat-out, but they will also require a T2 proper B source to cast them (not Caverns).

    The third option is to get tricky with cards that invalidate Arcanist. Chalice of the Void @1 and Grafdigger's Cage both shut Arcanist recursion down, but whether those are maindeckable is questionable, and Arcanaist is popular enough that Goblins needs a maindeck answer. Unsettled Mariner has shown potential, as it's taxing effect makes their spot removal inefficient, but it does nothing to stop Arcanist recurring cantrips, and it comes with a drawback of a completely revamped manabase.

    I'm leaning towards building around Nameless Inversion right now. Not only does it kill Arcanist, but it also takes care of Plague Engineer without playing into Plague Engineer.

    I woud love to hear how others are building around Arcanist and what their gameplan is to deal with it.

  6. #1846
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    My experience so far against Arcanist: You just need to play out your hand to go wide until you can deal with it. Itís an easy card to chump block one you have 3 power on board, so just jam your spells and hope they run out of gas.


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  7. #1847

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    The "best" way to deal with Arcanist is to block with Cratermaker, then shock it; assuming there are not removal spells. This works best with Vial.

  8. #1848
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I've been thinking about sideboarding strategies lately, specifically how to quantify the number of sideboard slots we need to dedicate to certain matchups. My framework centers around 2 criteria I have identified. The first is a concept I refer to as the Critical Turn, that being the turn in which the opposing deck makes a game winning play. Reanimator, for example, doesn't actually kill you until turn 4, but its Critical Turn is T1, since that is when it generally reanimates the fatty it kills you with. ANT, on the other hand, is more of a T2 deck for their Critical Turn. Depths , SnT, Elves, those are closer to T3 for their Critical Turn. The difference in Critical Turns is important because it means you have extra draws to topdeck a sideboard card that appropriately interacts. My Critical Turn assumptions per deck (T1 for Reanimator, T2 for ANT, etc) are also not hard and fast rules. You can use different numbers if you perceive the matchup differently.

    The Second criteria that I think is important to apply is Necessary Trumps. Necessary Trumps refers to the number of interactive cards (trumps) you need to have drawn by the Critical Turn in order to be likely to win. For Reanimator I assume the number of Necessary Trumps is 1, because dealing with one reanimation target is often all you need to win the game. For a deck like ANT, which plays more discard and bounce spells AND has more ways to find them, the Necessary Trump number is 2. You can assume one of your trumps will be answered, so you need to have drawn a 2nd in order to stay competitive. Again, like with Critical Turns, I don't claim to have the perfect number selected. This is more an exercise in building a framework for sideboarding.

    Now that we have our criteria selected (Critial Turns and Necessary Trumps) we can plug that information into a hypergeometric calculator to identify the number of trumps needed in order to hit a level of certainty. In our Reanimator example (CT1, NT1) 6 trumps will give us a greater than 50% chance of having drawn one in our opening hand. If we want to increase that likelyhood to 65%+ then we need to run 8 trumps. Sideboarding against ANT (CT2, NT2) requires a much higher number of trump cards due to the higher NT number. To have a 50% chance of having your 2 Necessary Trumps by Critical Turn 2 you will need to run 12 trump cards. If you want to increase that likelihood to 65%+ you will need to run 15.

    Now that we have established the number of trumps we wish to run for all the matchups we care about (generally the combo decks of the format) we can start building sideboard and maindeck to accomodate the numbers we''ve calculated. Sideboard cards like Leyline of the Void fill CT slots for Reanimator and ANT, whereas REB fills slots against SnT and ANT while also being a great sideboard card against non-combo decks that don't present a Critical Turn threat. Likewise, cards like Pithing Needle are great against Depths and SnT, but can also be brought in against DnT to target their equipment.

    This looks like crap, but here are the numbers I've calculated thus far...
    Deck Critical Turn Trumps Needed >50%
    Reanimator 1 1 6
    ANT 2 2 12
    Depths 3 2 11
    SnT 3 2 11
    Elves 3 2 11

    Here's the sideboard I built to accomodate these numbers...
    4 Leyline
    2 Thorn
    2 Needle
    2 Relic
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 REB
    1 Karakas

    Against Reanimator I have 1 Karakas and 4 Leyline, plus 1 Karakas MD = 6
    For ANT I have 4 Leyline, 2 Thorn, 2 Relic, 2 PEngineer, 2 REB = 12
    Depths 2 Needle, 1 Karakas + Maindeck 4 Wasteland, 1 Karakas, 1 Weirding, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Sling-gang = 11
    Show and Tell 2 Thorn, 2 Needle, 2 REB, 1 karakas + MD 1 Karakas, 1 Weirding, 1 Stingscourger, 2 Cratermaker = 12
    Elves 2 Plague Engineer, 2 Needles + a buncha DM removal = more than 11.

    I hope that this is a useful approach to some of you and that you can use this framework to help design your own decklists tuned to the metas you expect to face. Again, I'm not trying to say my designations of Critical Turn or Necessary Trump values are accurate, or that my listed card choices are correct. I'm just trying to create a solid framework for our deckbuilding, and I hope it makes sense and is helpful.

  9. #1849
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Here's my spreadsheet, updated with chances on mulls to 4. I believe you should be able to copy and paste if you want to use this with your own Critical Turn and Necessary Trump assumptions.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...PxjArDnlov3-HU

  10. #1850

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Hi guys, I am a long time Goblin fan and came up with a version of the deck with which I had quite some success online.
    Here is the list:


    MD
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Aether Vial
    4 Warren Instigator
    4 Mogg Warmashal
    4 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Sling-Gang Commander

    1 Morophon, the Boundless
    2 Squee, the Immortal
    4 Food Chain

    3 Badlands
    3 Taiga
    4 Mountain
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills
    1 Gemstone Caverns

    SB
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Goblin Cratermaker
    2 Alpine Moon
    1 Goblin King

    Sideboard is uncertain, but is not the main focus of my post. The Maindeck is basically an Instigator List, coupled with Food Chain combo (Squee, Sling-Gang, Food Chain), but it should also work with a more traditional goblin core. With the Instigator core you have a highly aggressive core that sometimes lands an early morophone or outputs a lot of damage and Sling-Gang closes out the game. On the other hand, if the game goes longer or there is a road block, Food Chain shines in ramping to Ringleaders or winning on the spot with Squee+Sling-Gang combo. This gives the deck a lot more reach and attacks the opponent from different angles: Overwhelm them with Instigator power, close out the game with Sling-Gang power, exalerate with Food Chain power or win the game with Combo power.

    Sidenotes:
    *It feels great to combo out "real" combo decks
    *Squee + Gemstone Caverns = Love
    *Mogg Warmarshal is the best Food Chain ramper after Squee
    *Plague Engineer is mean, without main deck answers only Morophon can save us all (and Chieftain)
    *Manabase is wackey and "only" 22 lands, but Food Chain, Vial and 8 Lackeys kinda make up for it
    *Yes, 61 cards

    Please feel free to comment. I would be glad if someone else tests this beauty and gives feedback.

    Until then keep in mind that some goblins are expendable and some are impossible to get rid of

  11. #1851
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    List looks awesome! A few things jump out at me... 1st, since you're rocking Winstigator and Squee, perhaps More Squee and more Chrome mox/Gemstone Cavern? It would give you more ways to accelerate into the combo. 2nd, how about Piledriver over MWM? I know MWM only nets you one more mana off of Food Chain, but Piledriver gives you T3 kills Lackey>Sling>Piledriver (with the help of an opponent's fetch or another goblin to play t3). 3rd, is Morophon really necessary? You alreay have 4 Chieftain pumps. I feel like Morophon would be better if it was just a Trashman or another Squee. 4th, I'll bet you can cut Vial and run 4 more goblins or more lands instead. You've already got 8 cheats + 4 Food Chain. Some Prospectors and/or Chrome Mox might suite you better.

    Keep us updated on your results and progress with the deck! It looks like fun.

  12. #1852
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    i'm wondering if a 1 or 2 of imperial recruiter would help this deck out. if you have food chain in play it's a great way to find any missing piece. (it's no matron, but it finds almost everything.)

    also with 8 lackeys in the deck, might it make sense to run 1 kiki-jiki?
    -rob

  13. #1853

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    hows it going?
    ive been playing goblins on and off for a long time. just recently ive decided id like to go from all red to red and black. the cards im interested in adding are:
    munitions expert (2 or 3)
    sling gang lieutenant (1 or 2)
    warren weirding (1 or 2)
    and maybe an earwig squad (but im kind of leaning away from this one)
    my list recently has been:
    4 lackey
    4 matron
    4 ringleader
    4 vial
    4 warchief
    3 gemplam
    3 cratermaker
    2 piledriver
    2 stingscouger
    2 war marshal
    2 chainwhirler
    1 chieftain
    1 trashmaster
    1 krenko, mob boss

    4 cavern of souls
    4 wasteland
    3 rishadan ports
    12 mountains

    im planning on taking out 8 mountains and putting in 4 badlands and 4 bloodstained mires. to support the black mana

    do you guys have any advice on adding black goblins?

    thanks

  14. #1854
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Sure thing! Run 2 Sling-Gang main and 2-3 Munitions Expert. Sling Gang is awesome and worth running in multiples. Weirding probably isn't great right now. The fatties ignore it for the most part and fair decks just don't care. You definitely don't want to run a Weirding into a Snapcaster, Coatl, or Elk. You're just falling further behind at that point. And TNN has fallen by th wayside thanks to Plague Engineer, so you don't need an answer for TNN quite like you used to. You do need a way to deal with Engineer though, so pack some Tarfires somewhere. One Stingscourger should be enough for the current meta. And Earwig Squad is decent too since combo seems to be everywhere, especially online.

  15. #1855
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    No comments on this yet? https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=32562&iddeck=284098


    Seems the definite list for now or he lucked out
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  16. #1856
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    No comments on this yet? https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=32562&iddeck=284098


    Seems the definite list for now or he lucked out
    I dont like this list. I like prefer either mox/winstigator/chief or either mwm/warchief style.

    But I am sure he did not lucked out. I think he just played better than the others, and well maybe the list is really good.

  17. #1857
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    No comments on this yet? https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=32562&iddeck=284098


    Seems the definite list for now or he lucked out
    Tons of comments on this, just not on this forum. Marcelo (ScatmanX) is the man and this list is legit. 2x Sling Gang is the new normal. There are a bunch of lists on tcdecks that are derived from this one that have had success in Marcelo's wake. But, yeah, this sort of list is the standard these days.

  18. #1858
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    cool, but is sharpshooter better than mons? i never really liked ss and he is not available in new frame foil :(
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

  19. #1859
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    cool, but is sharpshooter better than mons? i never really liked ss and he is not available in new frame foil :(
    Maybe because he wanted to have a maindeck "answer" against Empty the Warrens (in addition to his sideboard Goblin Chainwhirler ) ? Or it has just flavour reasons

  20. #1860
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I made Top 8 of a 73 player Legacy tournament yesterday with trusty Rb Goblins.
    61 Cards
    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    1 Skirk Propector
    2 Piledriver
    2 Mogg War Marshal
    3 Munitions Expert
    3 Cratermaker
    2 Gempalm
    1 Chieftain
    1 Warchief
    4 Matron
    4 Ringleader
    2 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
    1 Trashmaster
    1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
    1 Chainwhirler
    1 Pashalik Mons
    4 Wasteland
    3 Rishadan Port
    1 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Badlands
    4 Mountain
    6 Fetch

    Sideboard
    2 Pyrokinesis
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Planar Void
    2 Chalice of the Void
    1 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Null Rod
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Karakas
    1 Mindbreak Trap

    R1 - Goblins Mirror!
    Always a bummer getting paried up in the mirror. I wish every goblins player could win every match. I took both games. Remember in the mirror that Gempalm counts goblins on both sides, Munitions Expert only counts them on your side.
    1-0

    R2 TES
    I lost game 1 and heavily sided for G2and3. Don't bring in graveyard hate against TES. It does not play out of the yard except for Echo of Eons which takes significant hate to answer, so it's better to interact with Chalice @ 0 or Thorn/Null Rod. REB on a cantrip is always a fair move too. Skirk Prospector is especially good specifically for that reason (casting REB while being tapped out).
    2-0

    R3 Miracles
    I won G1 by setting up double removal on Mentor and Vialing in Sling-Gang for lethal in response to opponent's responses. G2 I mulled to 4 and lost. It happens. G3 my opponent has a legitimate Miracle on an Entreat which he did not set up. This enabled him to play an early 4/4 which kept me from attacking into his board. We exchanged sideboard cards (his Council's Judgement for my Chalice @ 1, my REB for his B2B) but having that early miracle Angel gave him the edge and when he Entreated for 4 later that was game.
    2-1

    R4 Burn
    G1 Sling-Gang got active so I won. G2 I locked him out behind Chalice @1 and Chalice @2, but I still would have lost had he drawn Firecraft + Fireblast instead of 1+2 drops.
    3-1

    R5 Dark Depths
    Lost G1. Won G2 off of multiple Wastelands and Chalice @2 to lock out Hexmage. Won G3 off of Needle on Hexmage and multiple Wastes, then Sling-Gang to pump me to 21 and win on the swing-back.
    4-1

    R6 Bant Food Chain
    I win both games off Piledriver being bascially unblockable (sorry Coatl/Griffin) and getting lucky because my opponent assembled the Food Chain/Griffin combo but didn't find a payoff card.
    5-1

    R7 ID 5-1-1

    Top 8 Hogaak Combo
    I lose both games in similar fashion. T1 Lackey cannot get through T1 Hedron Crab. Lacking Lackey blockers used to be a weakness of Zombardment decks, but Crab does a great job and spams the yard like a motherfucker. I really like how Hogaak combo plays cards from the hand like a regular deck (Crab, Careful Study, Stitcher's Supplier) and gets explosive value out of the yard. G2 I keep an opener with 2 Relic, and they are no match for T1 Crab. I should have been running Leylines in my board or at least Grafdigger's Cage instead of Planar Void. Chalice @ 1 can really shut this deck down as it counters all the fair cards that allow them to abuse the yard. Having Pyrokinesis for removing their early enablers at instant speed is important too. If you can Pyro away Crab and/or Stitcher you are free to Relic or remove their yard and they will not have any responses. It seems like this, like other combo matchups, just needs to be over-boarded against if possible.

    Final Thoughts:
    Sling Gang is awesome, and I really like it as a double slot. Chieftain was great, much better than Warchief, as Chieftain does a much better job of going wide and pressuring. Pyrokinesis was great and I should have boarded it in against Hogaak to answer an early Crab. Relic and Planar void were bad, and would have served me better as Grafdigger's Cage or Leyline. Null Rod and Thorn did what they were supposed to against TES. Needle was great against Depths. Chalice was great as well (though I did side it out on the draw vs Depths). I think changing the sideboard -1 Relic, -1 Planar Void, +2 Grafdigger's Cage would be fair. I also would not mind cutting a Port from the main for a MD Karakas. Port wasn't bad yesterday, it just wasn't relevant.

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