[Deck] Vial Goblins

[Hanni]

Dragon Stompy almost certainly isn't tier 1 after the bans, I haven't seen it post many significant results since the bannings.

What matchups specifically do you think get significantly better with mainboard blood moons vs having more goblins in your deck for matron/ringleader/lackey/winstigator/gempalm? There is a high deckbuilding cost to putting non-goblins in your maindeck.

The decks I would want blood moon for are: Eldrazi, Post, Lands, Turbo Depths, BUG control, Maverick, and Grixis Delver. It's technically "good" against RUG delver, but very difficult to resolve, especially in a game 1 situation where they still have all their FoWs, Dazes, and Spell Pierces. Of those decks I listed, Eldrazi/Post is the only popular one, with Lands, Grixis Delver, and Maverick being lower tier but still reasonably popular. That said, blood moon isn't even that good against Post because of all their ramp artifacts, I've resolved t3 blood moon against post plenty of times and have it do basically nothing. I'd also much rather have just more removal spells against a deck like Maverick. If they get a knight out early and you can't kill it, you will eventually lose to it. Postboard I'd still bring in blood moons if I have them, but it's not a KO, which is what it basically has to be in order to get a maindeck slot over the more synergistic options.

On the flip side, the decks I don't want blood moon: D&T, Miracles, Grixis Control (they sideboard their own blood moons now), Sneak and Show, Storm, Stoneblade, Reanimator, Infect, other blood moon decks. Those first 6 constitute what I'd argue are the current best decks in the format, plus Eldrazi. Mainboarding a card that is near-dead against almost the entirety of the decks to beat does not makes sense to me.

Unless it's a Punishing Maverick deck, I would not bring in Blood Moon. They have basic Forest and Plains, plus Noble Hierarch. Turn 3 Blood Moon is way too slow to cut them off of mana, and Wasteland should be sufficient to stop the 1-of Depths/Stage plan via Knight tutoring.

Blood Moon is too slow against Delver. Turn 3+ Moon does not impact the board quickly enough. If Delver wins, it's because they get underneath us, not because they win the long game.

Blood Moon's primary function is to improve the Lands and Turbo Depths matchups.

I like Blood Moon against 3+ color midrange decks like Esper/Bant Stoneblade and BUG.

Blood Moon is mediocre against Eldrazi Stompy because it's sometimes too slow. It's great against 12 Post (the lists all-in on Cloudpost), but only mediocre against Big Eldrazi because of the manarocks.

Blood Moon is good against Aggro Loam, if for no other reason than to shut down Punishing Fire. I'd bring it in against any Punishing Fire deck, actually.

Other than that, I don't really want to bring it in against anything else. Maybe Landstill?

[1GoblinLackey]

Unless it's a Punishing Maverick deck, I would not bring in Blood Moon. They have basic Forest and Plains, plus Noble Hierarch. Turn 3 Blood Moon is way too slow to cut them off of mana, and Wasteland should be sufficient to stop the 1-of Depths/Stage plan via Knight tutoring.

Blood Moon is too slow against Delver. Turn 3+ Moon does not impact the board quickly enough. If Delver wins, it's because they get underneath us, not because they win the long game.

Blood Moon's primary function is to improve the Lands and Turbo Depths matchups.

I like Blood Moon against 3+ color midrange decks like Esper/Bant Stoneblade and BUG.

Blood Moon is mediocre against Eldrazi Stompy because it's sometimes too slow. It's great against 12 Post (the lists all-in on Cloudpost), but only mediocre against Big Eldrazi because of the manarocks.

Blood Moon is good against Aggro Loam, if for no other reason than to shut down Punishing Fire. I'd bring it in against any Punishing Fire deck, actually.

Other than that, I don't really want to bring it in against anything else. Maybe Landstill?

I dunno if I've ever lost a game vs Maverick after resolving blood moon, even when they were playing 3-4 DRS. T3 Moon does actually constitute meaningful mana denial against them because they're stretched pretty far on colors. Even if they have their forest and plains, they're basically restricted to casting 1 spell a turn, and no black spells at that, so you can ignore dangerous cards like Zealous Persecution or Deluge. They now can't play both StP and Stoneforge in one turn, for example. Noble Hierarch dies to literally everything in our deck, killing it is trivial. Blood Moon also makes Knight incapable of growing outside of its tap ability, which is frequently too slow against us, especially if you can no longer get fetches and other utility lands like Gaea's Cradle.

Blood Moon is too slow against *some* delver decks. Pre-ban Grixis Delver you'd happily sideboard blood moons because they can beat in you in the long game because of TNN and Angler, or DRS draining. Moon's vulnerability to Daze was worth the upside of your opponent being literally unable to cast spells outside of Lightning Bolt and Pyromancer. I dunno what current Grixis Delver looks like, maybe it's better against Moon? I'd guess not without DRS though, they still play no basics.

Against Eldrazi Stompy, I don't see how it could be too slow. They cannot cast any spells with the mandated "colorless" mana with a moon in play, making their only castable spells Jitte, Mimic, and Endless One, unless they actually get to 7 lands to all is dust. Without the support of TKS and Smasher, their deck is basically garbage. Even if they've resolved a TKS or Smasher in the first 2-3 turns, those cards are still very beatable by themselves. If you only have to deal with the battlefield, Eldrazi is very very easy to beat. They rely on the cascade effect of TKS into TKS, or Mimic into Smasher, or the unending tutoring of Eye of Ugin. Cutting all these lines off is excellent.

Good call on Aggro Loam, forgot about that. They also just have a godawful manabase, so moon will strand them with a ton of uncastables.

I wouldn't against Landstill I think. Our Caverns are essential there, and they play a fair number of basics. Yeah you turn off Mutavault/Mishra's Factory, but we have wastelands, ports, and gempalms to handle those all while under Standstill. Honestly for that matchup I'd just wanna keep my Goblin count as high as possible. Bring in up to 2 needles and up to 2 pyroblasts and that's all.

[Ox411]

How many ports are people running?
Ive got a pretty standard build lately, there's 22 mana sources, all lands.
4 caverns
4 wasteland
2 ports
And the rest are mountains.

Sometimes i feel like ive got extra mountains during many of my games, so i go up to 3 ports, and then i feel like im hurting for red mana at times.

How many do most people play?
Thanks

[1GoblinLackey]

How many ports are people running?
Ive got a pretty standard build lately, there's 22 mana sources, all lands.
4 caverns
4 wasteland
2 ports
And the rest are mountains.

Sometimes i feel like ive got extra mountains during many of my games, so i go up to 3 ports, and then i feel like im hurting for red mana at times.

How many do most people play?
Thanks

I've been playing 3 ports but wish I could play 4. The reason I play 3 instead of 4 is to accommodate the 2 Chainwhirlers I'm playing. I think 23 land with 3 ports is pretty stable, a lot of people play 4 though. What does your list look like? It's possible you're running particularly R intensive cards that make 2 ports necessary, like Warren Instigator.

[MagicGuy]

How many ports are people running?
Ive got a pretty standard build lately, there's 22 mana sources, all lands.
4 caverns
4 wasteland
2 ports
And the rest are mountains.

Sometimes i feel like ive got extra mountains during many of my games, so i go up to 3 ports, and then i feel like im hurting for red mana at times.

How many do most people play?
Thanks

I ran 23 lands tonight...
4 Waste
4 Cavern
3 Port
5 fetch
5 Mountain
1 Plateau
1 Karakas

It felt fine to me, sometimes you just draw into colorless lands. It happens.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Why play Karakas? Just to get lucky in certain matchups, plus Thalia trix? Is that enough to play another non-red source?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Why play Karakas? Just to get lucky in certain matchups, plus Thalia trix? Is that enough to play another non-red source?

Not certain matchups... it's to get lucky in bad matchups. Plus Thalia trix.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Not certain matchups... it's to get lucky in bad matchups. Plus Thalia trix.

Your answer to my final question in that post eludes me. Is it worth it, in your opinion?

[GAMEster52]

general question, if you have a lackey and a vial in your opener. what do you play first?

[jrw1985]

general question, if you have a lackey and a vial in your opener. what do you play first?

Are you on the play or draw?
Do you know what your opponent is playing?
Do you have a natural curve for Vial?
Do you have removal to get Lackey through?
Do you have a Ringleader or Matron to cheat in off Lackey?
Do you have mana disruption to play as you tick up Vial?
How many lands do you have in your opener?
Will playing Lackey vs Vial affect how you develop your manabase? Will one vs the other leave you more exposed to Wasteland or mana screw?
Do you have R mana?
Can you disguise your deck as DnT by leading with Vial?

So, yeah, just answer those questions and pick the right card for the situation.

[Sandro95]

Unless it's a Punishing Maverick deck, I would not bring in Blood Moon. They have basic Forest and Plains, plus Noble Hierarch. Turn 3 Blood Moon is way too slow to cut them off of mana, and Wasteland should be sufficient to stop the 1-of Depths/Stage plan via Knight tutoring.

Blood Moon is too slow against Delver. Turn 3+ Moon does not impact the board quickly enough. If Delver wins, it's because they get underneath us, not because they win the long game.

Blood Moon's primary function is to improve the Lands and Turbo Depths matchups.

I like Blood Moon against 3+ color midrange decks like Esper/Bant Stoneblade and BUG.

Blood Moon is mediocre against Eldrazi Stompy because it's sometimes too slow. It's great against 12 Post (the lists all-in on Cloudpost), but only mediocre against Big Eldrazi because of the manarocks.

Blood Moon is good against Aggro Loam, if for no other reason than to shut down Punishing Fire. I'd bring it in against any Punishing Fire deck, actually.

Other than that, I don't really want to bring it in against anything else. Maybe Landstill?

I'd like to add that Blood Moon is really good vs Infect. It stops all of their Inkmoth Nexuses, which is the threat that is most difficult for us to interact with, especially if you don't play port. They also usually only play one basic Forest, meaning that if we can kill their Noble Hierarchs they won't be able to cast Blighted Agent either. And if they don't have the Forest, well then it's just game.

[Bichon_Blitz]

general question, if you have a lackey and a vial in your opener. what do you play first?

Against unfair decks, Lackey. Against fair (especially blue), Vial. In the blind game 1...probably vial. Unless you're playing around daze if you're on the draw. Or if you have removal for their one drop, and a fattie, you can drop lackey...I think you see where this is going...

The lines are not always so clear cut, but generally speaking in the blind on the play, I do like vial when I play in paper since there is so much RUG in paper where I play. It all depends though.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

The lines are not always so clear cut, but generally speaking in the blind on the play, I do like vial when I play in paper since there is so much RUG in paper where I play. It all depends though.

Yea, if you have truly no idea it's basically Vial first, it sets up the rest of the deck, and is time sensitive. Where as lackey can make attacking strange for your opponent later, for some effect still.

[MagicGuy]

general question, if you have a lackey and a vial in your opener. what do you play first?

Against blue I like lackey first, if they force that then awesome. Then I can play vial turn 2 with daze Mana up.
However, jrw is right there are a lot of variances in that decision. Sometimes I have lackey siege gang and I'm like, why not try it?

[Ox411]

im back for more advice....

i play almost exclusively online, and i do around 50/ 50 in terms of wins and losses, except when it comes to some of the more complex decks.
ive been getting thrashed lately by certain kinds of decks, im sure youll be able to guess which ones after looking at my side. heres my current deck list:

4 goblin lackey
4 Aether vial
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin warchief
3 goblin piledriver
3 goblin chieftain
2 stingscouger
2 gempalm incinerator
2 goblin chainwhirler
2 goblin trashmaster
2 krenko
1 Siege-gang

4 cavern of souls
4 wasteland
3 Rishadan port
12 mountain

sideboard
1 stingscourger
1 gempalm incincerator
1 goblin chainwhirler
1 goblin trashmaster
3 graffdiggers cage
4 mindbreak trap
4 ensnaring bridge

im pretty happy with my main, but im open to suggestions.
im really looking for help with my side to beat decks that can win in just a few turns.

a few thoughts:
Umezawa's Jitte- i hate playing against this card. i think it should have been banned before drs. it gives 3 very powerful options for a very low cost. its very hard for me to win if my opponent gets this card out on the table. trashmaster helps, but not much. if its on the table for 2 or 3 turns, its an almost guaranteed loss. the creature doesnt even have to damage you, imagine if goblin lackey's effect triggered from combat damage.....
any suggestions?

is there a gobliny way to deal with enchantments? or planeswalkers?

i agree with what other people are saying about vial vs lackey on turn 1. vial is the better play, lackey connects pretty infrequently. but the payoff is so sweet, its hard to resist trying to slip in a siege gang or krenko on the 2nd turn if youve got the cards to go for it...

thanks for your help

[Bichon_Blitz]

sideboard
1 stingscourger
1 gempalm incincerator
1 goblin chainwhirler
1 goblin trashmaster
3 graffdiggers cage
4 mindbreak trap
4 ensnaring bridge

im pretty happy with my main, but im open to suggestions.
im really looking for help with my side to beat decks that can win in just a few turns.

a few thoughts:
Umezawa's Jitte- i hate playing against this card. i think it should have been banned before drs. it gives 3 very powerful options for a very low cost. its very hard for me to win if my opponent gets this card out on the table. trashmaster helps, but not much. if its on the table for 2 or 3 turns, its an almost guaranteed loss. the creature doesnt even have to damage you, imagine if goblin lackey's effect triggered from combat damage.....
any suggestions?

is there a gobliny way to deal with enchantments? or planeswalkers?

i agree with what other people are saying about vial vs lackey on turn 1. vial is the better play, lackey connects pretty infrequently. but the payoff is so sweet, its hard to resist trying to slip in a siege gang or krenko on the 2nd turn if youve got the cards to go for it...

thanks for your help

Jitte- really shouldn't be an issue with trashmaster...even if they get two counters on it, that's not really gonna take the game over. Neat trick with prospector (which i see you aren't running) you can sac the blocker before damage, thus preventing it from gaining counters.

There is really no hard and fast answer we have for enchantments...this why i used to play white splash for wear//tear. Planeswalkers shouldn't be a huge issue with hastelords. I loathe playing against Nyx Fit...

I run a 3-3 split of Thorn of Amethyst and Chalices for faster combo.

[Fourbirr]

Judging from your SB, I guess that you encounter a lot of Reanimator, Storm and S&T. 4 MBT, 3 Cages, 4 Bridges seem good at first glance to deal with them. The problem is that these cards are either useless against other MU, or very low impact or simply not what we want. Try diversfying your SB and choose more generic cards. A very good example is Relic of Progenitus. It hits GY decks like Reanimator, Dredge or Storm, but is also very good against RUG, which is more or a fair deck.

The issue with Jitte shouldn't really be one with 2 Trashmasters MD and 1 more post side. What I see is that you are very low on 2 drops, and the main board lacks removals. There is IMO too many finishers that make the curve higher. With this list, I would add at least 2 Mogg War Marshall and 2 Gempalm, cut 2 Chieftain, 1 Krenko, 1 Stingscourger.
The reason is that the 2nd Sting MD is that except against big fatties, he is not the card that we want to des naturally draw. With 3 Warchief and 2 Trashmasters, you already have enough Lords to speed/pump your team. I see no more reason to run Chieftain anymore, but you'll still have one to tutor when needed.

With these changes, you should have better turn 2, better ways to kill creatures before they equip and more blockers. Krenko will make more tokens too.

I would replace 2 Cages and 1 Trap with 3 Relics.

Your win ratio should raise. Please, let us know.

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[Darkgobs]

4 cavern of souls
4 wasteland
3 Rishadan port
12 mountain

I know you are playing chainwhirler MD, but since you are playing Mono-Red, I would encourage you to go up to four Rishadan Ports: except against D&T or Elves, imho the 4th Rishadan > Chainwhirler.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@ Ox411

Maindeck:

I agree with Fourbirr here. You do not have enough removal in your maindeck. Since you can't jockey in the midgame due to low removal, Jitte probably feels more powerful than normal. You don't actually need that many finishers, 1, sometimes 2, made easier by having natural lord(s) in Trashmaster.

Sideboard:

I'm guessing based on your deck design that Death and Taxes / Stoneblade, Reanimator, Storm, and Show & Tell are popular? I'd probably run the below, keeping mono red based on your initial list.

List:

MD
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
12 Mountain
4 Aether vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger


SB
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ashen Rider
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Stingscourger


This build gives you the full set of Piledrivers and ports to beat up on the combo decks, while still giving you access to 2 Chainwhirler's and Trash's to shore up the fair equipment decks. This is possible due to 2 Skirk Prospectors fixing your ana in the mid game, making your Reds easier to cast. I also shaved a Cavern as there is very little countermagic that I can see based on my deductions, you might be able to shave two happily. Keeps you further Wasteland proof. The only card for fair match-ups in your board is Abrade, as it gives you an early piece of interaction that can also snag equipment. The rest of the board is for combo, I have detailed below the board plans. I think this is better than a huge pile of Ensnaring Bridge simply due to the way Goblins works. Reanimator will get out before you can drop the bridge, and S&T boards in Abrade in almost every match-up already.

The biggest thing I miss from this list is Pyrokinesis, but with 2 Chainwhirler, and the heavy combo meta, I'm not convinced you need them.

Sideboard Plans:

D&T / Stoneblade
+2 Abrade
-1 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Stingscourger

Grind grind grind.

Reanimator
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+3 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Stingscourger
-3 Goblin Ringleader
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-2 Goblin Chainwhirler
-1 Goblin Trashmaster

You have the tools to do the best you can here. By diversifying direct answers, indirect answers, and from hand based disruption you make their ability to predict you much, much worse.

Storm
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+3 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Mindbreak Trap
+2 Surgical Extraction / Abrade (For LED mid combo)
-3 Goblin Ringleader
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-2 Goblin Chainwhirler
-1 Goblin Trashmaster
-1 Stingscourger

Thorn is your best card here, followed by Trap, Cage, and then Surgical. Just get to racing and try to buy a turn. Once you get ahead, Vial and Lackey make quick work here, Waste and Port them out.

S&T
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Ashen Rider
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Stingscourger
-3 Goblin Ringleader
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-2 Goblin Chainwhirler
-1 Goblin Trashmaster

Ashen Rider and Stingscourger are answers from hand to their creatures, and Thorn answers Omniscience. Surgical is just a generic piece of interaction in the match. Don't keep a hand on it's merit alone.

Wrap-Up:

This list looks solid to me for what I could tell was your issues. It keeps you mono red, should be able to out grind stoneblade
and have a lot of fight for those listed combo decks. The cards are generic enough to come in for all sorts of match-ups, but good enough for what you are encountering.

Hope that helps.

[Darkgobs]

@ Ox411

MD
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
12 Mountain
4 Aether vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger


SB
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ashen Rider
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Stingscourger

Why mot play 4 warchief but 2 prospectors?

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