I wanted to be able to produce RRR for 2 Chainwhirler's though our own Ports and Wastes. It's an accelerant so it still helps against a raw race against combo.Originally Posted by Darkgobs
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Ok (even though I think that Warchief is better than Prospector against combo). Like always, in the end it comes to playstyle preferences, but I think the deck looses some strength by playing the 2nd chainwhirler MD over the 4th Port. Didn't test it though.
...?
It's running 4 Ports and 2 Chainwhirlers.
The concession was running 3 Warchief instead of more, by running 2 Prospectors to produce more reds for Chainwhirler.
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I'm unsure how I feel about Chainwhirler. Don't get me wrong, I think he is good, but what I mean is I'm unsure if how many I want main/side/total and why I want them (other than vial mirror).
Yeah, I got a bit confused. My bad.
So: My point is that if the question comes to choose between the 2nd Prospector or the 4th Warchief, then the Warchief is better. So if a list needs a 2nd Prospector to play a 2nd Chainwhirler, and that this 2nd Prospector comes at the cost of the 4th Warchief, then you probably shouldn't play the 2nd Chainwhirler, because I am really convinced that playing less than 4 Warchief is a huge mistake.
And about Chainwhirler, I feel a bit like Secretly.a.Bee : don't know exactly the importance of the card yet, but for the moment, I play one in my sideboard, and it basically only comes in against D&T and Elves. But maybe that's not enough? Maybe I should try to replace the Sharpshooter MD with Chainwhirler?
Am I only one who still play winstigator list? What are pros and cons towards classic list in new meta?
Just posted in the discord, I went 4-1 at a bigger LGS event, just Swiss no cut to top 8. Came in 7th, would’ve felt good about my chances frankly with all the miracles and DnT. Will try to post about it later when I have time.
Chainwhirler is really good right now. I played two last night and never regretted it. He does so much and against other creature decks that use the combat step, he is a house.
thank you all for the detailed replies, ill have to spend some time trying out your ideas.
I am really just wondering: against which Creature deck are you so happy with Chainwhirler, except D&T (and Elf)?
Quick post of decks with x/1s off the top of my head
Elves
Dnt
Maverick
Infect
Mirror
Bob/souls piles
Strix/lavaman piles
Tight geese (first strike gets the loose ones)
Also combines with a 2 power haster to kill Jace if that comes up
3 power first strike is dece
Don't get me wrong, the card is strong and I know it.
But my question was not " which legacy tier 1-2 decks are playing X/1 creatures?", but rather in which MU is Chainwhirler so strong that you are happy to commit to play 2 in your maindeck over other options?
Jace will normally be on 3 or 5 the turn after he got played. So here, Chainwhirler + Warchief do nothing more than Piledriver + Warchief would do, for instance. Just saying.
Anyway it's true that a 3/3 first strike body is nice (against Mirran Crusader, Thalia, Mangoose, Jitte etc.), but not op (not really great against Gurmag, Tarmo, Knight of the R, Batterskull etc.)
I feel like the question is maybe to choose between Sharpshooter MD over Chainwhriler MD. Because playing both seems a bit weird, no?
[QUOTE=Darkgobs;1053804]But my question was not " which legacy tier 1-2 decks are playing X/1 creatures?", but rather in which MU is Chainwhirler so strong that you are happy to commit to play 2 in your maindeck over other options?/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I agree with the "tier 1-2" decks analysis, but I think I know what you're getting at (decks that are played in paper more often that put up results.
DnT - this is the most obvious. You should expect, in paper at least, to be playing against this deck given it's cost/power ratio in terms of dollars to wins.
Miracles - snap, mentor tokens, pings JTMS
Eldrazi - Mimics (these are of course problematic. But there are other plays you can make, ie vial'ing in a Chainboi to block a Seer)
Grixis control - strix, snap, blitterblossom tokens.
Grixis delver - Pyromancer + tokens
RUG - Early and even thresh geese, unflipped delvers, being the only first strike critter in the match is also very relevant for two decks that play red.
Infect - everything
TES - Tokens. They are on this plan a lot more often then you may think and this is one of those "git em" cards.
What you''re also neglecting is the first strike on a 3/3. This makes all the removal suite even better, and makes smarter players second guess attacking into it if they see gempalm or even tarfire mana up. Or Sharpshooter shenangigans.
Sorry I've been drinking and forgot some details of matches but this is a quick run down. list below.
// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
// 33 Creature
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Chainwhirler
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Siege-Gang Commander
// 2 Instant
2 Tarfire
// 21 Land
9 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
// 15 Sideboard
// 8 Artifact
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Confusion in the Ranks
// 3 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
R1: BYE - Yea, I wanted to test against the open field. Got to watch other matches and see what people were on. Saw a ton of UB Shadow, Show, DnT, and Eldarazers.
R2: Zombardment L 1-2
g1: This is not great for us, especially game 1. Cabal therapy combined with an enchantment which blows up our board is bad news. He had a nutty hand of cabal therapy, and some zombs, stripping my hand, followed up by the enchantment that we have no answer to g1 and i scoop.
SB: add in needles and 2x surgicals.
g2:Kind of a blur I just get lackey, tarfire his stitcher supplier, he doesn't hit with either trigger, and i go on to win in a non-match. I casted needle on bombardment after arguing with myself whether or not to hide it. Pretty sure it was relevant.
g2: I keep something like needle, surgical, wasteland, port, 3x warchief, mountain....snap keep. he cabals for aether vial, whiffs, realizes what i'm about to do. Extract the therapy, needle on bombardment, pass. Sitting comfy, expecting to draw another red to cast one of these 3 warchiefs...it never comes. He gets me with zombies attacking. This is a card game, after all.
R3: Grixis control 2-0
g1: win roll, cavern, lacky, go....I miss a few lackey effects but at one point have three lackeys freely attacking, hit a ringleader, and that's that as you could imagine.
g2: I keep a very shaky 5 (could've been 6, not sure) two lander and pass. He cantrips and misses lands as I just cast prospector and trade my piledrivers with his removal suite...he misses some land drops and I end up coming back with regard to mana. it turns into a grindfest, I blind name liliana of the last hope with needle, eventually draw a lackey after he used whatever removal he could find, and take over from there....port was huge, as it usually is.
r4: RUG Delver 2-0
g1: i win roll, knowing he is on RUG after finishing my last match before his and keep a hand of - 3x Mountain, 1 Waste, 1 Vial, Ringleader, Tarfire. Keep. Run out vial, clench a little hoping to dodge force, clench works. Long story short, he ends up stifling wasteland, matron trigger, and something else ( think it was another wasteland) and i end up with vial on 4, counting 3 stifles in gy and like my chances against a lone goyf and 1-2 card hand...ringleader basically hits and i establish a board presence, prompting a rightful concession after having 6 gobs on board with a real hand.
g2: i keep something like: mountain, cavern, vial, skirk prospector, stingscourger, matron, x.....he goes t1 fetch, goose. I go cave, prospector, choosing to play around daze, and know how well prospector stones daze...luckily he just has a handful of geese as he offers the trade with prospector, i pass, but next turn play vial, he dazes, i guess so as to play around a follow up lackey, but i'm able to pay...the match ends up going the way we want it to, long, drawn out, with a sense of inevitability and he concedes despite having abraded a vial...Chainman killed a non thresh Goose, which was relevant. I'm able to chump his early blocks and eventually establish a board that overwhelms and wins. Gempalm'ing a pair of goyfs was huge actually, still believe 3x gempalm is right.
r5: DnT 2-1
g1: I just straight up punt, no other way to put it. Opponent SFM into SoFI, i matron into trashman...I foolishly play trashman which gets swords'ed, like a damn fool, and get run over by the equipment.
g2:I am able to kill his revoker which names my t1 vial eventually, needle from opener i was pocketing for the relevant equipment shutting off his SFM target,...I turn a corner with artifact hate (trashman and tuktuk) and chieftain and opponent concedes.
g3: wish i could show this match, it's very attrition-ey...very hard to do a descript write up of this match, lots of interaction. Lots of back and forth, swings in the game, eventually i get a gempalm, into ringleader, into another ringleader, into more goblins and he has 0 cards in hand, and my deck just does it's thing....there is a lot though to this, including chainwhirlier blocking a Thalia equipped with jitte and still killing it BECAUSE of first strike. Regardless, I came back from a lot, two revokers, several pieces of equipment, the win feels deserved.
Chainwhirler is good because he makes our matchup against other fair decks even better....If your meta is full of unfair decks, and you want to splash black, honestly, just don't play goblins....I'm not familiar with "your" meta, but I would say walking into a blind meta, goblins is fine since, IMO, most of the unfair shit, as is usual for legacy, is not making up a huge part of the meta. Sneak and show, sure, and that's why I had confusion. My local meta has always had this so it's been touch n go, but post ban I played the two.
We should (and usually do) "prey" on the other fair decks that are trying to be balanced against the field. DnT, Delvers, 4c loam, Merfolk, Maverick...the reason to play goblins competitively is because these decks are back in style.
Have yet to see how we are against UB Shadow, would like to hear how the matchup goes though.
21 lands... no Mox... No instigator... and a lot of drop 3+ on you deck...
It seems that you was in your lucky day.
Believe it or not, I had bad ringleaders all day flipping 3 lands and 1 goblin card on more than one occasion. Until g3 against DnT real late but that was wrapped up anyways. Variance is indeed a concept in magic, but I've played this list a lot lately and haven't felt too mana screwed in a lot of matches.
23 lands is a lot in this deck, and it has led to flooding out a lot more in my experience than drawing lands in a timely fashion....the mox/instigator build is prone to being blown out currently, flickerwisp/revoker/most decks are bringing in artifact hate post board, or you just t1 instigator and they plow or bolt it and it's just way worse than a lackey in that regard.
22 may be better, but this list hasn't let me down too much.
Olaf-
Thanks so much for your sideboarding guide, its been really helpful.
Im trying out most of your card suggestions with a few exceptions. So far the results have been good.
A few thoughts based on a few days of playing:
-i took out a mountain instead of a cavern for the 4th port.
There is a fair amount of counter magic running around, and blanking a 1st turn fow of my lackey makes me so happy......it feels like its worth it even though im sometimes more exposed to a wasteland.
- i went with 4 warchiefs and 3 war marshals. To make room i went down to 2 piledrivers. With the amount of hand destruction and mana denial, the warchiefs cost reduction has been great, and without the chieftain, hes the only haste lord i have.
I miss krenko and the war marshal helps me get my token fix, so far im enjoying the extra goblins more then my piledrivers when i get them both.
-i haven't been in too many situations to use the prospectors ability yet. Either im missing opportunities to use it, or they really haven't come up much. Except for this one time where it let me cast a chainwhirler and kill 2 mother of runes at once.....
-chainwhirler.....i think its a really useful card. The fact that you can play it after combat or vial it in at lots of different times make his ability super strong. He hits planeswakers and players too and hes a very good body. His only downside is casting. Triple red and no help from warchief. But between lackey, vial, and actually having 3 mountains out, i can usually play him at relatively opportune moments.
-thorn of amethyst is like my new favorite card. Ha ha! Take that practically every deck i hate.
Thanks again for the advice everyone.
Glad to hear it's working out. Keep doing what your doing. Making changes based on playstyle, and meta are super important to learning a deck.
Also a note on Chainwhirler, I've gotten a number of X/2's by just aggressively attacking, and playing Chainwhirler post combat after blocks.
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I did that a *lot* during the DRS era. T1 lackey would sit on the board staring at DRS, then I'd just play whirler on t3-4 postcombat after the forced block. Nowadays you can do it pretty convincingly vs Stoneforge. There's also a fun tension you can put your opponent in with Earwig/Chainwhirler. With an unassuming 1/1 attack, you can bluff both and they cannot play around both at the same time without using a removal spell that they probably don't wanna use.
As a storm player I would LOVE for you to play sphere over thorn. Sphere allows me to find my answers to permanent based disruption while paying no tax whereas thorn actively stops me from answering it. PLUS you can slow down your own development with sphere whereas thorn almost never effects you. In terms of the mana it takes to go off storm can beat thorn some percentage of the time without answering it, but it takes such a specific hand that it takes a while to set up and you should kill me before then. Making my third spell cost 3 instead of 2 in theory seems better, but is completely outweighed by the fact that I am not beating my spells costing 2 most of the time anyway, and I can more easily and cheaply cast my spells that answer your hate card if the first one costs 1 instead of 2.
I think this is a pretty big deal and as a player of both decks I thought I should weigh in.
I don't agree that it's that cut and dried. I do appreciate your sharing that opinion, but I try to think about the Sphere as a "bad" Ethersworn Canonist since I'm coming from DnT, it sets my expectations. First, I played storm when it was busted (Mystical Tutor and Orim's Chant days), and goblins for a short while in 08. I didn't really care for it back then, but bannings and new printings and personal preference all change. This little bit of background is just to show where my following opinion on this is coming from.
Even with Canonist, my opponent often goes ponder, pass. End of my turn, decay on Canonist, untap and continues their game. This is no different than what you are talking about. Furthermore, I know a lot of you Goblins players "can't" fit in the 4th port, but I did and will keep it, and the Mana denial Port generates, combined with Wasteland, is real and decent against storm.
Obviously storm is good against goblins. Doesn't mean they always win, and goblins has a bad time against combo in general, and with elves looking okay and DnT being popular as well as goblins having 8 ways of cheating things in, I dare say it's possible you have underestimated the card in this particular list.
Either way, its what I'm testing and so far it has been okay. I haven't always played as well as I could have with it in play and making the right plays beforehand is more important when it's main, for sure, but it's viable to the point I can say I won't be spending the money on Thorns in the near future.
Thorn makes their decays and echoing truth cost three, and if you're porting and wastelanding, that's a lot of mana. I've beaten storm in paper quite a bit lately, and it usually involves a thorn or two of them in conjunction with a port or two ports...throw in a wasteland and they are draw-go'ing most of the game. In that way, thorn protects itself. I will absolutely swear by thorn. Sphere doesn't punish their first spell, or the cantrips they're going to use to dig out of hate.
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