I had 2 wins and a draw going into the last round of my local tonight, then lost 1-2 to Rb goblins. It was running chrome mox and 4 md chalice, I quite liked the list.
@1goblinlackey - I meant to reply sooner, but I've been busy.
I think Pithing Needle just does more in your board than Blood Moon. It's excellent, and faster against Lands. You also have 2 Krenkos' for the more common BUG matches. And to go further, that would make Wear // Tear look less exciting, opening slots. Pile in board is wierd, wherever he comes in (sans Merfolk and Leovold) you could be bringing in a relevant hate piece. Generally rely on your main to clock 'em.
To fit Pile in your main the only cuts I can see are: Mogg, Copter, Krenko, or Sting. Copter is kind of taking his role here.
Eldrazi - I'd leave in Stingscorger and cut Tarfire. I think Tarfire is pretty abysmal in the match, as it plays into what they want. Inneficient 2 for 1s or killing things they don't care about. Deal with pretty much most 3 or less toughness dudes with your board state.
Lands - Moon, Wear // Tear, Pile, and Sting seem good. Leave a Gem in just in case, cutting all of your kill spells otherwise and maybe a Mogg.
Deathblade - I assume Esper; I'd bring Moon in on the play and Cabal OR Thalia on the draw, along with Lackey. If you don't have Moon, then Thalia on play and Cabal on draw. Cabal can Snipe TNN or equipment when you are slower out of the gate. It might be right to just use Cabal either way. Needs testing. I think someone did this work for you a while back. Wad it Sandro? Anyone remember? It was mentioned almost explicitly about Cabal versus Esper Stoneblade in the old thread, but I can't find it.
Elves - Pyrokinesis, Cage, and Moon all have text. Ring is weak here despite being the control in what can be a grind. You can shave a Krenko as well, as it's survive first, win second.
Maverick - Creatures and Equipment. Pyro and shatter come in. Consider leaving Sting for Knight. You can cut Lackey on the draw here. You don't need all of your Pyro on the play as you have natural speed from going first.
Nic Fit - This greedy deck will prey on your basic instinct; cut your Vials on the play and draw. They get swept by Deed AND tagged by a host of cards they can, and do, run. Bring in any big effects you have, all your Pyros, gravehate, and naturalizes. Cut sting, most of their stuff loves being bounced. Consider cutting on the play as well if you can't find more to take out. Deed's fault again. If their deck is working they should ramp you. You beat Therapy simply by Ringleadering through it. Trust the top of your deck here.
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@JRW1985
I'm not sure if this helps or not, but it seems to me you are recently treating the deck similar to Dragon Stompy, or at least your SB games look like they might be doing that. Perhaps the lack of synergetic options are causing the less consistant results? Just a trend I've noticed.
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@many people
In defense of Siege-Gang Commander versus Krenko:
Krenko is powerful, no doubt, but he is significantly less versatile. Similar to Rakka Mar or Rabblemaster he can win a game very fast, but similarly to those cards they die to both Bolt and STP while being tagged off of Karakas, Revoker, and Needle. It is truly difficult from the opponent's point of view to fully handle Siege-Gang Commander as he alone attacks from a couple of angles, where as Krenko attacks from 1 angle very well. Krenko's biggest strength is against deck's leaning on the versatility of Abrupt Decay, which is why he can so easily take BUG matches. If you build YOUR ENTIRE deck to support him he obviously gets better in the grindy matches, where he needed little help to begin with. Having tried those builds myself they simply feel like win mores. Siege-Gang is also just plain very good across the board, with significantly less weaknesses. There are exceptions, like Gobolords rather recent brew, where he specifically noted that he was attacking a fair meta.
As for the BUG matches themselves, I really do like Krenko. And he's my go to if I think the match is going to be more common.Here's to hoping they never truly pick up Fatal Push.
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Recently I've noticed that Tim Street Hooligan is becoming more well placed. I moved a second Tin Street Hooligan to my main, shoving the Stingscourger to the board.
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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It might have been me, I know I tested Therapy vs Stoneblade. I think it's better against UW than against Esper, and better against Esper than against Deathblade. UW Stoneblade and Esper Stoneblade are more reactive, which means which means the tempo loss from spending a mana on a card that doesn't impact the board. This means they're also more likely to have relevant cards left in hand later in the game (Swords to Plowshares, Council's Judgment).
One of the main reasons to bring in Cabal Therapy is to fight True-Name Nemesis, as we often cannot beat that card otherwise.
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Could you elaborate? I'm interested in your view of my SB as Stompy-esque. Where am I lacking synergies, and where can I improve them? I thought I put together a very synergistic list, but maybe I left some important ones out or focuses on the wrong ones.
My most recent list, for reference....
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Chieftain
3 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm
4 MWM
2 Krenko
2 Skirk Propsector
12 Mountain
4 Waste
2 Port
4 Cavern
1 Karakas
Side
4 Chalice
3 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Blood Moon
1 Tuktuk
1 Sharpshooter
Hi fellow goblin players (sry for bad english),
Recentley i picked up my goblins again after cubing and playing ant for a while.
And damn i do love those little green men. The list i played for a few weeks is the following
Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Cavern of Souls
6x Red fetch
2x Taiga
3x Mountain
Creatures:
4x Lackey
4x Matron
4x Ringleader
4x Warchief
4x Gempalm
3x Mwm
2x Piledriver
1x Tinstreet
1x Stingscourger
1x Sharpshooter
1x Krenko
1x Skirk
Other
4x Aether vial
1x Tarfire
2x Pyrokinesis
Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the void
3x Chalice of the void
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Stingscourger
4x Ashen rider (lot of omni)
1x Tinstreet
And i experienced some problems with it
- Manabase is awkward (only 3/4 basic mountains and a lot of cards that require mountains: casting tarfire, cycling gempalm, activating siege-gang, double red for: the hastelords, krenko and siege-gang
switched my manabase from:
4 rishadan ports
4 wasteland
4 cavern of souls
6 rode fetch
3 mountains
2 taiga (tin street)
tot 4x cavern 4 waste 2 port 12 mountains karakas
- Sharpshooter is verry good or verry bad, i found out that it is in most cases a horrible topdeck (it deffintley diserves to be in the 75 tough so for me thats sideboard)
- I didnt had enough removal turn 2 for x/2 creatures. For example turn 1 lackey is verry good but when your opponent casts a DRS and you have gempalm you feel bad so i upped the tarfire count to 3!!
My removal suit is:
3x gempalm incinerator
3x tarfire
1x stingscourger
- Lack of power, my deck was based on the piledrivers they feel so bad so often. Switched them for aditional krenko and siege-gang
- Lack of speed and ways to deal with -1/-1 effects so i removed sharpshooter and 1 gempalm and added 2 chieftains
Current build:
Lands:
4x Wasteland
2x Rishadan Port
4x Cavern of Souls
12x Mountain
1x Karakas
Creatures:
4x Lackey
4x Matron
4x Ringleader
4x Warchief
3x Gempalm
3x Mwm
2x Chieftain
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Stingscourger
2x Krenko
1x Skirk
1x siege-gang
Other
4x Aether vial
3x Tarfire
Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void (i mulligan for it vs reanimator/dredge/storm/lands)
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Stingscourger
1x Sharpshooter
1x Tuktuk scrapper
2x Anarchy (metacall: lots of dnt and my only answer vs enchantress)
2x Pyroblast
I will let you guys know when i have played around 20 games how i like it. But i think the list really supports krenko and siege-gang (the most powerfull cards of our deck)
Last edited by dissy; 02-23-2017 at 04:33 PM.
25 lands is a lot.
Tinstreet Hooligan doesn't work with Warchief OR Aether Vial. It is very unreliable. Suck it up and pay 4 mana for Tuktuk, as bad as it feels. You probably don't need Sharpshooter main.
Why do you play 62 cards? Oh looks like he plays only 2 ports
Hey all,
I've achieved a hat-trick of Goblin victories these past 4 weeks, with my final victory being this evening! (week 3 the event didn't fire) Feeling quite good about the deck now, a lot of people underestimate it. I changed up my board a bit based on the advice of you all, and ended up with a list I'm pretty happy with. Unfortunately, I'm probably gonna have to change it up again tomorrow, as Saturday is a Bazaar of Moxen trial in Edinburgh a bunch of us Glasgow players are gonna attend. So I'll need to broaden out a bit (which probably means Blood Moon and Relic).
My matchups this week were; Belcher (2-1), Enchantress (2-1), and Elves (2-1). Quite a tough crowd! Don't think I won a single game 1, but the sideboarded games felt much better. I'm not going to write up a large report like normal unless you guys want me to. Just some highlights and lessons learned;
-Bring in pyrokinesis against Belcher. It's counter-intuitive, but if you have ways to answer belcher itself (best is Needle, but Wear//Tear can get there sometimes too), Empty the Warrens in their most realistic kill condition, as they often can't get storm high enough to kill with Tendrils. Pyro lets you stabilize with some blockers against a turn 1 or 2 Empty for 10-12. Both games I won involved surviving the early empty, then stabilizing with sharpshooter/blockers, then Thalia stopped any further action.
-If you play copter, side it out when you bring in Thalia. It's very awkward to have pay 3 for it, and generally not worth it.
-Cabal Therapy is great. Really happy with 2 in the board. It saved got an Argothian Enchantress, and a Humility on the flashback. Also got a NO out of my Elves' opponent hand game 3.
-If there aren't a lot of lightning bolts in your meta, definitely consider Earwig Squad. Against combo decks it takes out all or at least most of the win conditions, and against fair decks it eats the best cards while also being super hard to kill. Ripping out 3 TNN plus being immune to virtually all removal spells in the BUG decks is quite strong. 5/3s are quite big in legacy. (can't die to Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay; it becomes Toxic Deluge or a lucky edict for them).
For reference, here's the list I played today. I don't intend on changing the maindeck for the next event, aside from cutting a fetch for a Cavern that I'm borrowing from a friend.
Creatures: 29
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Krenko
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad
Artifacts: 6
4 Aether Vial
2 Smuggler's Copter
Instants: 2
2 Tarfire
Lands: 23
6 Fetches
3 Mountains
4 Wastelands
3 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
2 Badlands
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
3 Thalia
3 Pyro
2 Wear//Tear
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Warping Wail
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
2 Cabal Therapy
When I make the cuts for Blood Moon and Relics, I'm guessing I'll shave a pyro, a wear//tear, and a Cage for +2 Moon, +1 Relic.
Cheers! Hope my good fortune spreads to other Goblins pilots.
It was just a hunch actually. It literally comes down to how conservative a SBer you are to explain what I mean. I could be wrong to put it bluntly. When do you board specifically Chalice's in? Blood Moon? I figure at the worst it's a good rehash of SBing techniques.
The list of 3% or greater meta shares: Miracles, Shardless, BUG Delver, Grixis Delver, S&T, D&T, Storm, Burn, Loam, 4C Garbage, Elves, Reanimator, Eldrazi, Lands
I'd like to hear your opinion first, to see where we differ, if at all (You don't need to be specific, just where you use these cards)
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I just can't agree with Tuktuk Scrapper being a strictly better. Being a [[Goblin Piker]] has mattered far too often for me. I actually want my curve as low as possible, and argue that that is more important, in Legacy, than the "Vialability" of the 4 mana 2/2. I tend to run Tuktuk Scrapper when I want to run Mono Red, or have a Kiki-Jiki in my list as there are distinct upsides to running either (or both) options.
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I actually learned this lesson about a year ago. Really unintuitive and can totally steal a game. I just never thought to mention it, as it rarely comes up. I find Belcher is nearly as rare as the mirror now-a-days. I guess I'm just saying that I affirm this choice.
Last edited by Olaf Forkbeard; 02-23-2017 at 11:06 PM.
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Miracles, -3 Tarfire, -1 Tuktuk +4 Chalice... Chalice is such a beating against them
Shardless, -3 Lackey, +3 Blood Moon
BUG Delver, -3/4 Lackey, +3/4 Chalice/Blood Moon (I'll usually bring in Moon on the play, then switch it for Chalice on the draw. If they see Moon G2 they'll usually lose then play around it G3 by fetching basics, plus Moon on the draw is too slow so Chalice is better there anyway)
Grixis Delver, Same as BUG Delver, only Moon is even better because they run 0 basics. Just don't over-board. Keep up the goblin count to grind.
S&T, +3 Needle, -3 Gempalm/Tarfire. I usually like to keep 1 Tarfire in just in case I need to Matron for it ftw. I don't like Chalice against S&T because they can be either quicker than it or they've already done their sculpting by the time Chalice resolves.
D&T, +1 Tuktuk, +1 Sharpshooter, +2/3 Needles depending on play vs draw, -Lackeys, -X Vials (Vials'll just get Needled or Revoked or Flickerwisped anyway, but I'm not totally certain that siding out Vial is correct against DnT..... Your thoughts?)
Storm, +4 Chalice, +3 Surgical, -4 Gempalm -2 Tarfire -1 Stingscourger. I hate Surgical here but being able to turn off PiF is clutch.
Burn, +4 Chalice, -1 Skirk Prospector, -2 Tarfire, -1 Stingscourger
Loam, Surgicals and Moon in, Lackeys, Tuktuk and Chieftains can come out, or just shave a few goblins
4C Garbage, Same as BUG Delver
Elves, Chalice and Sharpshooter in, Stingscourger, Tuktuk and Lackeys out
Reanimator, Surgical in for Tarfire
Eldrazi, Blood Moon for Tarfire (not enough Tarfire targets, plus they run Chalice @1)
Lands, Surgical and Blood Moon for Tarfire and Gempalms
Nothing too crazy. It all seems pretty obvious except for Loam which seems to vary quite a bit.
Nice run, 1GoblinLackey.
Agree on boarding Pyrokinesis vs. Belcher. I like the minor interaction of Cabal Therapy and Copter. Do you ever plan to have both of them in MD after G1?
@Olaf: I'm following the same logic as you do, when deciding on Tuktuk vs. TSH. The anti-synergy between Warchief and TSH just never happens in practice. If its really important to get rid of that artifact and you can't cast TSH for G, there will always be a way to get rid of your Warchief.
Also, who else is going to BOM Paris 2017 end of March?
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
The matchups I intend on having Copter and Therapy in the deck at the same time are probably Deathblade, D&T, BUG control (basically the TNN.dec's), possibly Aluren, Shardless (though therapy might be unnecessary here), 4C Loam. Perhaps Lands as well, but I don't know much about that matchup. As a general rule, I like Copter when you have specific cards that are knock-out punches against a deck, as the looting digs you closer to it. Despite bringing in Thalia as well, I like keeping Copter in against Turbo Depths (blocks marit lage for a turn).
If by some significant luck I win the trial tomorrow, I'll plan on going to BOM 2017. I might be in the Shetland Islands though, so I'll let you know when it gets closer. Are you hoping to attend?
@jrw1985 I don't think bringing out Aether Vial against D&T is correct. It's not like they're going to revoker vial with their own vials in play or in hand, and none on board for you. I prefer to keep the density of things that can be revoked high, with the logic being that if they revoker vials, then that means that they didn't get to revoker gempalm or sharpshooter. Vial is also super valuable in the matchup because without it you can't use mana denial effectively.
Against Shardless, I actually tend to board out some number of tarfires unless I'm playing RIPs or Relics. The tribal component makes it so the goyfs get absolutely enormous, and once they get into the 6/7 or 7/8 range, it's extremely hard to Gempalm them. I assume that lackey isn't getting in on the draw ever anyway, so I don't really concern myself with trying to kill t1 DRS.
I also think that you should really find some room for Pyrokinesis in the board. It definitely makes winning a lot of the creature matchups a lot easier, even more so against D&T and Elves. Unless your meta has very few of those decks, I'd try to make some space for 2-3. You could probably shave a chalice, a surgical, and/or a Moon?
tin VS tuk is more about manabase, not manacurve. More about cards like kiki and meta in your store.
Monored manabase with no fetches allows you to play 21 lands easely and offten you have more land in play, that allow you to play more spell each turn and have card for matron in main.
If you want opp to return skull to its hand for good attack and play Tin you have to sacrifice you vial because you have to destroy any art, this is a bad story.
Yes all we know that we have bad choise of shatters but this is our life=)
@ 1GoblinLackey:
We will definitely attend. Would love to meet some of you guys if you happen to be there.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I went to the last BOM Paris, don't think I'm going to this one though. I want to go to the MKM Prague in July, possibly MKM Frankfurt too.
You are conservative in your boarding, as I had hoped. With a board like yours it could be easy to justify all 4 Chalice's coming in all the time. I just was worried that a board like that would mean your attempting to play Stompy game 2 and 3 every game, aka why play goblins, there is a couple of archetypes that actually do that. You can count my initial comment as meaningless then, it was just a worry and I wanted to check on it.
Notes on your board plans:
I would probably just cut 3 Ringleaders against S&T and bring in Chalice's. It's almost a no-loss effect. 4 costs aren't coming down at a reasonable pace without your own nut hands anyway.
I leave Lackey in for Elves as it helps turn on Gempalm personally.
I tend to leave in Vial against D&T. I barely board at all for D&T actually, it's 3 Pyrokinesis, and any shatters / needles I have. I've found anything else means my Ringleaders can't out grind them. My win percentage went up pretty noticeably when I realized I needed to be out grinding them with Ringleader more than sniping answers with my Matrons. I knew this once, and somehow forgot it over last year.
I pretty much agree with everything else mentioned (I assume it's more in depth, as I requested you give minimal information to make your life easier).
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@Olaf
Thanks for the notes. Good point about Ringleader V SnT. Ringleader is pretty loose against Combo in general.
DnT should be a little better for me with the list I'm running today. I looked through other decklists (non-Goblin) to see what decks are running as far as interaction spells (removals, counters) vs creature spells. I found that many decks are running 15+ interactive spells. My previous lists had been running much fewer than that, actually closer to 9 interactive spells (4 Gempalm, 1 Stingscourger, a Tuktuk, some Tarfires). I decided to add more removal and interaction, basically cutting cards like MWM and Krenko for cards that can kill more of my opponent's cards. Rather than clogging my board I will focus on clearing their boards.
I started with the core 20 of Vial, Lackey, Matron, Ring, Warchief, then took the 22 lands I've been running and tried to add as many removal goblins as possible in the remaining 18 cards...
4 Gempalm seemed obvious
3 Tarfire/1Pyrokinesis for T1 removals
2 Stingscourgers - Folks keep telling me two is wrong but I'm telling you, try it out.
2 Siege-Gang Commander - It's a removal spell and a CA spell, just like Gempalm. I feel 2 is correct because you don't want to set Vial to 5 and then have it be dead.
1 Tuktuk, which is just a necessity
1 Sparksmith - Trying him in lieu of Sharpshooter. He's faster and can kill bigger threats, also attacks better than Sharpshooter.
That's 14 Removal cards, which seems better than the 9 I was running last time. The 4 remaining slots could be filled with anything, but 4 Piledriver seems to go pretty naturally with 2 SGC, plus I've read multiple players on this forum referring to Piledriver as a Removal spell since it forces trades in combat. Also, with TNN and Leovold all over the format ProU seems OK.
That leads me with the following...
Creature (30)
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Sparksmith
2x Stingscourger
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
Land (22)
4x Cavern of Souls
12x Mountain
2x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
Instant (4)
1x Pyrokinesis
3x Tarfire
Artifact (4)
4x Aether Vial
SB will be basically unchanged...
4 Chalice
3 Blood Moon
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk
1 Sharpshooter
It would be nice to squeeze in 1 more Pyrokinesis though, so this might change in the next hour. I'll report back later.
Sparksmith? Well, there's a surprise
IMO, in some cases Piledriver is a removal-spell as well. I will attack into a big creature, and force a block.
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