Then we will probably meet, because I'm also going with a bunch of other swiss players. Please, pm me so we share contacts if you want.
Exactly, versus Show & Tell, or Sneak & Show, we have some kind of a defense plan. But against Omniscience, we must rather accept that it's a terrible match-up and pray to be fast enough. If your meta is full of these decks and it really bothers you, try boarding some Angel of Despair or Ashen Rider and enjoy your opponents face =)
UPDATE 24.03.2017 14:31
I forgot Confusion in the Ranks
Last edited by Fourbirr; 03-24-2017 at 09:38 AM.
Hi 1GoblinLackey,
So cool to see you have good results. You make goblins great again ^^
I would not cut Piledriver. I think it's a bad idea. BUG decks with Leovold will be "enforce" for the coming BOM and we need to pass TNN.
According to a friend of mine who went to a 70+ tournament last week-end in Lyon, the 2nd biggest city in France, the meta was full of BUG and 4C decks. But as I know, Paris players love Miracles. They are responsible to continuously tweak the deck and make improvement, because, as a matter of facts, french people love competition, love to win, and they favor decks that can win. Expect a lot of Reanimators, Miracles, BUG/4C, Eldrazis and some Death & Taxes on Saturday. On Friday, for the trials, I would recommend to fill your sideboard with heavy graveyard and anti-combo stuff. If it's as last year, the meta was full of combo on Day one to cheat some byes (Storm/ANT, Oops, Belcher, Reanimator, S&T/Sneak/Omnishow). Your current sideboard seems in good shape for that.
For an overview of last year top8 and other stats, please have a look at the official event promoter website: Eternal Week-End 2016
and make a search for the top8 of the last BOM in Legacy "Decklists Legacy Championship 2016" or with "European LEGACY Championship 2016 Eternal weekend" for the Meta Breakdown. I hope it helps.
For all goblin players attending the BOM ETernal Week-end in Paris, we could make a whatsapp group, meet and support each other. What do you think? If you are interested, PM me and I'll gather our numbers.
See you soon.
I remember the "tech" from the Dig Through Time/Omnishow metagame was to bring in Krosan Grip and to hope that when Show and Tell was cast you would have 3 mana open including a Taiga and a Krosan Grip and Goblin Matron/Ringleader/Siege-Gang/War Marshall in hand - the tech being that you would hold priority on the etb trigger and then Krosan Grip the Omniscience.
Like I said... "tech" haha. Just ignore it as a bad matchup and leave those matchups to people like me who have been forced into playing Delver.
As for the videos, I will add them into the playlist as soon as I remember the password
There is also confusion in the ranks as narrow hate against omniscience. I remember that when i played ashen rider my opponent could cast cunning wish for stifle and win anyway, while confusion in the ranks triggers twice so it can't be "countered".
That said, i don't even know if current lists run cunning wish at all, so ashen rider could be good enough
Strong agree.
I really like having access to one copy of Earwig Squad in my maindeck. Resolving one really changes how the game is played in many matchups. In some matchups you can take their win cons (i.e Tendrils from Storm or Entreat out of Miracles), shifting inevitability in your favor. Other times you remove one angle of attack, allowing you to play the game with fewer restrictions. Removing all the board wipes or answers to Krenko out of a BUG deck is excellent for example (Taking Krosan Grip away from Lands is another option if you have Blood Moon). Getting rid of tutor targets is also great, whether it's equipments out of SFM deck, utility lands out of Lands, or even just basics/all lands of a certain color out of some decks.
I like Therapy vs Storm, Belcher, S&S, Burn, Enchantress, Reanimator, Merfolk, Eldrazi, and UW Stoneblade with lots of TNN.
It's fine against Death & Taxes although I don't bring it in/keep it after sideboard because there are better options in pyrokinesis/needle and you want to keep the goblin count high and not oversideboard.
I'm undecided on it/would consider it vs MUD, Infect, & UR Prowess.
R/B Goblins
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Hi fellow Chieftains,
Lately, I was posting more than usual and gave a lot of my impressions about sideboard strategies and the current meta. I would like to remind that I'm surely not the best goblin player out there. Players like Olaf, ScatmanX, GoboLord, Oleg, Sandro and others have more experiences and good records than me. So, keep in mind that I may be wrong sometimes and don't be shy to try some strategies out of the box or any cards unusual in goblin decks.
Today, I would like to write again about the sempiternal draconian choice Tuktuk vs. Tin Street. I was never a huge fan of Tuktuk, because this guy is slow, and a 2/2 goblin for 3R is meh. But...I had to review my opinion due to some good results against Death & Taxes lately.
First of all, have all of you ever read GoboLord's great post from the 26.03.2013 and his analysis about the two's: Hot Topics
Back then, splashing green did maybe make sense, because aside Tin Street Hooligan, Krosan Grip was strong, see these 2 old lists below:
Max Tietze
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4714&d=227225&f=LE
Jon Ashworth
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=5263&d=230352&f=LE
Noah Schwartz
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=6893&d=239579&f=LE
However, having 1 Taiga/Pendelhaven ready for Krosan Grip is not very reliable and splashing 2 colors (GW) make our manabase vulnerable to wastelands. While we rely on our goblins to destroy artifacts, having 2-3 slots against enchantments is a lot. I discuss that privately with Olaf and he explained me that we rather dodge enchantments like Moat with Siege-Gang Commander, or Engineered Plague with Chieftain. So the green splash is most essentially for Tin Street Hooligan.
Now, it becomes interesting and this is where I would like to point it out. If we cut the green, it's one mountain more in our 22-23 lands, and I would push the vice to shave a fetch, because, for people splashing white or black, there is just one another color to look for. Depending of your trust in luck and mathematical statistics, it will be 4-5 fetches and 4-5 mountains. I prefer 5 fetches, because it's still 1 damage less to your life total, which can be taken into account.
In short, avoiding splashing green will:
- Give you more basic lands -> we need them badly with more finisher like Kiki-Jiki, Krenko and Siege-Gang.
- Makes you cast more spells,
- Give you one more life point
- Makes you more Wasteland-proof
- Still shrinks your deck for Ringleader, thanks to the 5 other fetch-lands (unlike mono-red builds).
It would look like this:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Ports
4 Mountains
5 Fetch-lands
1 Plateau
@Question to everybody: How bad would it affects our first hand and draws with 22 lands?
The second part of this analysis concerns Tuktuk Scrapper again. He is slow, that is a fact, but I just discover his real value against the last Miracle and Death & Taxes matches. For the 1st one, I don't side out Tuktuk from the main deck, because it can helps to shatter the single Engineered explosives. And for a reason:
1) Tuktuk entered the battlefield with a Vial @4,
2) He shattered Engineered Explosive,
3) He dealt one damage to the artifact's controller,
4) This damage was redirected to Jace,
5) Jace was @1, because he bounced my Warchief,
6) Jace died of atrocious burns.
While opponent had a Mentor and 1 token in play, it would have been hard to pass mentor before Jace becomes a problem. Jace being in paradise, that's one problem less and a Matron to Gempalm could solve the other.
Against Death & Taxes, I experienced a new way of sequencing the plays as with Tin Street. We know that Stoneforge will come. With Recruiter of The Guard, they also have their white tutor now. So, that's 8 ways to look for an equipment. Sooner or later, a Sword of Fire and Ice or Jitte will come. They often keep Batterskull for the late game to recover some health points, but we can bounce him with Stingscourger or kill him with Gempalm. So, we must keep calm, tick vial, play basic lands and don't expose our Rishadan Ports to their Wastelands. That way, we can carefully cast our creatures, maybe not the better one first like Lackey -> Krenko, or Warchief + Piledriver, because we know they will be exiled with Sword to Plowshares. Lackey, Mogg War Marshall, Matron and Ringleaders should do the job, Skirk Prospector sac ability after block, too.
After T4 or T5, you should see a creature equipped with Jitte. Then, the first Tuktuk can make his entrance. Byebye Jitte or SoFI + one damage in your face. Then you can cast, Chieftain, Piledriver, Krenko and cliques...As long as you have the 2nd Tuktuk or a Matron in hand, their second equipment will melt, too. As well as a third artifacts, because the 1 Tuktuk trigger will trigger again. You'll even have the choice to destroy their Vial or their dead/alive Batterskull, and deal2 more damages with both Tuktuks. UPDATE: Actually, Tuktuk triggers twice for the artifact shatter AND the 1 damage for each ally in play, which means each Tuktuk will deal 2 damages, 4 damages in total this turn with Tuktuk alone. Tuktuk spreading love => BOOM!
At the end of the day, after side, Tuktuks will have destroyed 3 artifacts and dealt 3 damages! How big is that? How many goblins can deal 3 damages unblocked? 3 MWM, or 1 Matron + 1 Ringleader, or 1 Lackey + 1 Warchief, and so on...Most of the time, we deal between 3 to 5 damages per turn. Which means 2 Tuktuks give us a free attacking step. I mean, in grindy match-ups like D&T or against BUG decks with TNN + Jitte + Pithing Needle on our Vial, that's a lot of value. But again, Tuktuk is slow and you'll need strong nerves and accept to have your life total getting low a little bit more than with Tin Street if they have an early Jitte. Then, you should be fine.
Happy testing and have a nice week-end.
PS: This post was sponsored by my boss who is on holidays and I'm alone at the office
Last edited by Fourbirr; 03-25-2017 at 07:06 PM.
I think 22 lands is fine if you're not running any 5 drops. If you are, then it's mandatory. I often board out the 23rd land (karakas) in combo matchups where it doesn't matter (elves, storm, etc) because the risk of flooding isn't worth it and I'm boarding out most of my top end anyway. Without ringleaders the deck does become much leaner. According to some math done earlier in the thread, goblins really should be a 22.5 land deck, so siding one out depending on play or draw is fine. Therefore 22 in the main wouldn't be a big deal, but then I might be tempted to put a karakas in the sideboard for Reanimator/Sneak and Show (also D&T, where you just want as many lands as possible, and bouncing Thalia is useful sometimes).
I definitely agree with your assessment on Tuktuk; although slower, he is certainly more impactful. It's worth noting that (if I'm not mistaken) two Tuktuks triggering at the same time due to the entry of the second should destroy 2 artifacts, and deal 4 damage total (2x2). So resolving two tuktuks over the course of the game (assuming the first one was on board at the time) deals 5 damage and destroys 3 artifacts. In general, I think if you're playing tuktuk, you should have 2 in the 75 because they get exponentially more powerful. I rationalize not doing this in my own list because of Kiki-Jiki, which can accomplish the same effect. It's worth noting that Kiki copying Tin Street Hooligan does nothing, so there's another point against him.
Thanks Olaf Forkbeard for your advices
1GoblinLackey I like your list a lot. It is near mine.
1 think you forgot 1 card (stingscourger ?)
1GoblinLackey (59) Morkus (61)
16 core ( 15 core (
Aether Vial x4 Aether Vial x4
Goblin Lackey x4 Goblin Lackey x4
Goblin Matron x4 Goblin Matron x3 (-1)
Goblin Ringleader x4 Goblin Ringleader x4
) )
3 Goblin Warchief 4 Goblin Warchief (+1)
3 Gempalm Incinerator 3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal 2 Mogg War Marshal (-1)
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker 1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander 1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss 1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Piledriver 1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Sharpshooter 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector 1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktuk Scrapper 1 Goblin Tinkerer (#)
1 Goblin Chieftains 1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Ligthning Crafter (+1)
1 Sparksmith (+1)
1 Stingscourger (+1)
1 Pyrokinesis 1 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarfire 1 Tarfire (-1)
5 red fetches 5 red fetches
4 Mountains 4 Mountains
4 Wasteland 4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls 4 Cavern of Souls
3 Rishadan Port 3 Rishadan Port
2 Badlands 2 Badlands
1 Karakas 1 Karakas
Sideboard Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage 1 Grafdigger's Cage (-1)
2 Cabal Therapy 2 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle 1 Pithing Needle (-1)
1 Magus of the Moon (-1)
1 Blood Moon (-1)
1 Warping Wail 1 Warping Wail
1 Surgical Extraction 2 Surgical Extraction (+1)
1 Earwig Squad 1 Earwig Squad
1 Pyrokinesis 1 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (-1)
1 Chalice of the Void 2 Chalice of the Void (+1)
1 Warren Weirding 1 Warren Weirding
1 Zuran Orb
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ratchet Bomb
My core contains only 3 matron for a long time
Too many games lost with opening hand like 3 land, 2 matron, 2 ringleader (seems keepable but always too slow)
I prefer one more turn 2 than a fourth matron (1 sparksmith)
It's the same for tinkerer faster on the board than Scrapper and never countered.
I love this guy facing Divining Top
Our lackey rarely connects because our opponent has to find an answer.
- Counter (Cavern is our friend)
- Blocker (DRS, delver, mother of runes, Nimble Mongoose...)
- Removal (fatal push, Swords to Plowshares, ligthning bolt)
Do you think lackey is mainly removed or countered/blocked?
I think a lot about Rakdos Charm but I think is interesting only if removed is minority
Sorry for my unreadable list. The preview seemed cool
Yeah, for now, 22 lands with 5 fetches and 4 mountains is really working nice and smooth.
High five to correct me on this. Absolutely, the 2nd Tuktuk ETB triggers the 1st one damage again, so that's 2x2 damages at once. Boom! I was ruminating that yesterday evening and forgot it by writing the article.
Yes, I definitely forgot to add the stingscourger, I run 1 maindeck. I find lackey is most often blocked, which does make rakdos charm an interesting option. A bit cute though, and I don't particularly want to fetch out my badlands against D&T (which is where I'd probably bring it in). It's something to consider though, all modes on it can be relevant. If it had an easier casting cost I think I'd play it.
I think playing only 3 matrons is definitely wrong; yes it's slow, but also is super important to find the crucial 1-ofs in a lot of matchups (sharpshooter for elves, stingscourger for reanimator/Show and Tell, Tuktuk for D&T). Goblins is already painfully inconsistent sometimes, and matron is our only real remedy for it. It's what lets us get away with not being a brainstorm deck.
Ouch! Please, don't do that! Matron is core of the deck and shouldn't be shaved at any cost. It's like Vial, Lackey or Ringleader. If it wasn't for her or Ringleader, there wouldn't be any Goblin deck. Having a tutor to look for any of the 32+ goblin cards of your deck is just insane. I just wonder how it's not restricted at the first place. Matron was first edited in 1998 with Portal edition. White decks had to wait until last year until a tutor in the name of Recruiter of the Guard was edited. For the anecdote, that is mainly, because Richard Garfield, the creator of the game, favorite's deck is Death & Taxes. He pushed the R&D to edit some new good white cards for Death & Taxes. I wish we had some goblin scientist by Wizards to help us a little bit...Enough saying...
Get used to it. That's how hard a goblin life is.
Lackey is removed, destroyed, exiled, burned, scattered, countered, blocked, poxed, plagued, piked, smacked, sometimes all at once. But he does not give a fack!!! He is a true warrior.
EDIT:
Suits better with a Thug Life background music ;-)
Hi guys im new to legacy getting back into magic after a long hiatus, I LOVE GOBLINS. I see everyones decklist is a little different and its not the most established archetype, having said that I dont want to build a suboptimal list, can someone point me in the direction of what might be considered a stock list for an online/wide open metagame, also any material or sideboard guide or anything to read about goblins really thats not in the primer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance looking forward to being part of the community
I'd be willing to offer the below as very stock mono red.
Piledriving
MB
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
11
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander / Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
This should be sufficient for an unknown meta, it has rather wide coverage. As for optimization, that is meta dependent, but this core should get you going enough in every direction to be able to tune after 1 or 2 local events.
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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Random thought; has anyone ever tried out Innocent Blood in MWM-heavy lists? I'm imagining something like Gobolord's list, but splashing black heavily for Earwig and Therapy as Sandro has done, then Innocent Bloods in the side for the "giantcreatures.dec", along with a lot of the creature decks that rely on a few threats to carry the day (BUG decks, non-pyromancer delver lists, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if it was done back in the days of Patriarch's Bidding Goblins, but I'm curious if it'd be a reasonable choice nowadays. Maybe irrelevant because of Warren Weirding, but 1 mana is a lot less than 2.
Gonna be doing a bunch of testing before Paris with the group at my LGS and a friend online, so I'll have some results to report. I'm also really debating with myself about a couple of cards for the event. I'm still not sure what to cut for the 2 chalices I'm adding, and there are some other cuts I'll need if I make changes. My considerations are;
1-2 Mindbreak Trap; I really don't want to get knocked out of the event by running up against Belcher/Tin Fins/ Inconsistent Combo early on. Chalice and Therapy might be enough though.
1 Pyroblast/REB; My current board is a bit weak to S&S variants, and Pyro also handily deals with TNN on the stack.
1 more Blood Moon; I could just go all in on crushing the greedy mana decks. Seems like a high variance call; it either works out great or does nothing. This is something I'm not strongly considering, but it's an option.
1 more cabal therapy; Therapy has been so strong for me in a ton of matchups that a 3rd seems warranted. Once again, deciding on the cuts is the hardest thing.
My intuition says adding 1 Therapy and the 2 Chalices is the best option, and then I board in Therapies against TNN decks to deal with that issue. I'm also following Sandro's advice and maindecking the EWS over Piledriver, and moving Piledriver to the side. Other than that, my deck construction is the same as my last post.
Thoughts?
Also, welcome to all the new people! It's fantastic to see so many new Goblins players out and about. I'm curious though; what made you choose to play Goblins?
EDIT: Did some testing. I think I've configured the sideboard the way I want, with the one exception of missing Relic of Progenitus. I don't feel comfortable lacking a way to blow up a graveyard in a big event like this.
My configuration is this;
3 Chalice
2 Pithing Needle
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Piledriver
1 Sharpshooter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Blood Moon
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Warping Wail
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
I had initially cut the Warping Wail for a 3rd therapy and didn't like it. Wail is so versatile I could want it in just about any matchup.
What's the cut? The only one that looks reasonable to me is the 3rd Chalice or the Surgical.
Last edited by 1GoblinLackey; 03-24-2017 at 11:17 PM.
I count 16 spells in your current sideboard. Maybe Piledriver is better in main deck if you don't run 1 already.
For the Eternal week-end in Paris, I would prepare two different sideboards in case you attend the Trials on Friday or not. The meta changes a lot.
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@fourbirr: man, you're doing a good job here. Thanks for keeping this alive.
I'm a bit secretive because of Paris but will be back soon.
Just a comment regarding the last discussion, there is also the option of playing TSH without fetches. At Prague me and a fellow chieftain played TSH me with just 4 caverns for G. It worked very well for me, mostly because when you're not facing artifacts it is not a horrible card. That said Gobbolord tested it and completely hated it 😅
Oh, and agree on siding a land out against combo.
And guys, please don't run fetches if you're monored. Some much more inteligent people than I have proven to me that its not worth it because of deck thining/ dmg/ interaction and more. It is not worth it.
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Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Hi Steve,
Nope, I have no source for that. Except what an Old School player who met Garfield told me. He was invited in Italy for a little Old School / Vintage private tournament organized by wealthy people. The winner of the tournament has the privilege to confront Garfield to his own game in a 3-games match. During this event, Garfield told this friend that his favorite deck was Death&Taxes and that he wished better white cards were printed, with a little corner smile. That's not really a source, but more a conclusion.
My pleasure
Yeah, I can imagine. Most of the time, I cast Tin Street through a Cavern, not with Taiga.
True that. An old goblin player playing BUG Delver explained me this at the MKM Series Prague last November after our match. I remember very well the match. I opened G1 with a turn 1 Lackey to Siege-Gang, and he scooped. He confessed that it was a long time since the last time he played goblins, but he liked it and even made top8 of an MKM serie and another 250+ tournament. Unfortunately, I can't find his name on planeswalkerpoints.com history, because MagicCardMarket events aren't sanctioned by WotC. Anyway, Game 2, he led with two flipped Delver and a Deathrite. I couldn't come back. Game 3, I flood the board with some cute green men until he dropped True Name and equipped Jitte the turn after. After that, I top-decked Tin Street, with 4 lands in play and a vial @3 or 4, but there was no green source to cast him. Frack my life! Sadly, my gobs were killed one after another with Jitte ability. Matron or Piledriver never shown the top of their nose and I had no chance to come back.
I complained about Tin Street and he asked me the right question: "why aren't you playing mono-red?" I told him, solely because of Tin Street being a 2-drop shatter goblin and that he is fast against D&T. He answered, that except his True Name+Jitte, his hand wasn't really good and that with this board state, he would have lost the race if Jitte was removed. We can't really say, but the advantage was clearly for goblins in this game before Jitte came. I start to argue that splashing is not so bad, because fetch-lands thin the library and help Ringleader to find more friends. He said it was pretty much to ignore in a monored list, and here are his arguments.
In a 60 cards deck, 6 fetchlands represent 10% of all cards. That means, that every 10 cards, you should draw a goblin more with Ringleader instead of a land. Put in another way, it's 0.1 more goblin each time you draw a card. He said that in a 30+ creatures deck, this does not really make a difference. I am not that good with statistics, and I can't tell if his right, but then he explained the following advantages of playing mono-red:
- not being exposed to Wastelands,
- not being mana-screw for our splash cards,
- sparing 6 damages,
- having the mana to cast our cards anytime,
- can always shatter artifacts
At that time, I couldn't hear that, because Tin Street saved me too many games, especially during the exact same tournament where a T2 Tin Street with Cavern + Mountain saved my life versus MUD two times in the match.
I still don't know what to conclude. Sometimes, we'll need Tin Street, sometimes Tuktuk. Like I wrote earlier at the end of this post, I would go for Tin Street in a heavy Death & Taxes meta to answer Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice (SoFI) so fast as possible. But then, the full potential of Tuktuk was revealed to me, see this post.
I think each one has to make his own conclusion and try.
To stop splashing white is much harder, especially if you felt in love with Thalia, which is my case <3
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