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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #21
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    IMO Driver is best when there are 3 in your hand with a Warchief out on the field. Your opponent does something silly like tap out and attack with everything but one thing and then you get em on the swing back. That to me is the turning the corner.

    Of course this all falls to pieces because DRS is capable of both draining off of that one land and of making the 2nd mana to cast a Decay on your Warchief so that you don't get to turn the corner. [redacted], reality is a wet rag.
    Well, every goblin in the deck is better with a haste lord out. In those scenarios he's eating an Abrupt Decay. I'm way happier to lose a Piledriver to an Abrupt Decay than I am a Warchief or Vial. If you view the deck as a Midrange deck as I do then Piledriver is literally the card for ending games. Losing your best attacker is not losing the game. You can just keep Matroning and Ringleadering until they die to the remaining garbage. Similar to how Shardless's win con is Goyf. They often win with just a 1/1 Flyer and a 2/2 after the dust settles and the kill spells flew.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I disagree. Vial smasher is nothing like Piledriver. In fact, Vial Smasher is in many ways the polar opposite of Piledriver. Piledriver lets you win quickly when you have a positional advantage in combat. Vial Smasher lets you win through board parity. In other words, Piledriver is a card you really want when you can attack aggressively because it can either force a trade or clock your opponent. Vial Smasher is a card you want when you CANNOT force a trade or clock an opponent. Piledriver helps you when you can attack profitably. Vial Smasher helps you when you cannot attack profitably.

    Vial Smasher has a cool ability but I don't think he'll really make an impact and here's why: 1) Most Importantly, he is too narrow. He doesn't help you much when you're ahead and just need to kill your opponent before they kill you. He only really helps when neither you nor your opponent can get the upper hand in combat, and he then lets you win through burn rather than combat. A card like Piledriver is much more efficient in that roll. 2) Black splash. 3) No multiples. If you could play multiple Vial Smashers that would be ridiculous and overpowered. Only being able to play one at a time isn't powerful enough, especially since we're not cast FoW on our opponent's turn.

    Vial Smasher is another goblin that's only good conditionally. Much like Piledriver sucks on defense, Vial Smasher ain't great on offense. If they had given him a second ability that mattered he could be really decent. As it is there are too many matchups where he just doesn't make an impact.
    An interesting take on the card. When I draw a Piledriver on a stalled board, I become noticeably closer to breaking through my opponents defenses, if not able the next time he could swing. In his own way Piledriver helps break parity by forcing chumps, but I see what you are saying.

    Ultimately I agree that the card is not really for the deck, especially at 3 mana, though for somewhat different reasons.
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  2. #22

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Really glad to see the matchup updates; wonderful job Olaf! I was always tilted by the old one saying that Shardless is an even matchup (I have never felt that).
    After going through the thread again, I have a couple of questions.

    1. On the topic of maindeck pyrokinesis; why is it not done more often? (basically, talk me out of it?) It's extremely useful as a 2-of in many matchups, with the only downside I see is making ringleader marginally worse. However, this has led me to have only 1 maindeck gempalm (1-2 more in the side) . I feel a little uncomfortable with this, and was curious if anyone else thinks having more than 1 gempalm is a must. My overall removal suite is 2 Pyro, 2 Tarfire, 1 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter. I'd be curious about swapping a pyro for a gempalm, but perhaps having a 1-of pyro just isn't impactful by itself (1 pyrokinesis alone isn't gonna beat Elves).

    2. I was looking back on the archived thread (around page 307-8 or so) and so that Gobolord had compiled some very impressive data about deckbuilding that lead to successful decks. Some interesting things I've noticed is the high boost to win percentage to running 4x Mogg War Marshal, along with 4x gempalm. I'm curious if an "statistically ideal" build of Goblins was ever built out of that dataset. I imagine it's somewhat outdated at this point, but perhaps still relevant! Apologies if it was done and posted in the archived thread, I must have just missed it.

    3. Is Thalia a trap? Based on the matchup section, she doesn't seem to work in many of the matchups that she "should" be good in. I can understand if SBing her just for storm and reanimator though.

    Thanks for the new content!

  3. #23
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    Really glad to see the matchup updates; wonderful job Olaf! I was always tilted by the old one saying that Shardless is an even matchup (I have never felt that).
    After going through the thread again, I have a couple of questions.

    1. On the topic of maindeck pyrokinesis; why is it not done more often? (basically, talk me out of it?) It's extremely useful as a 2-of in many matchups, with the only downside I see is making ringleader marginally worse. However, this has led me to have only 1 maindeck gempalm (1-2 more in the side) . I feel a little uncomfortable with this, and was curious if anyone else thinks having more than 1 gempalm is a must. My overall removal suite is 2 Pyro, 2 Tarfire, 1 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter. I'd be curious about swapping a pyro for a gempalm, but perhaps having a 1-of pyro just isn't impactful by itself (1 pyrokinesis alone isn't gonna beat Elves).

    2. I was looking back on the archived thread (around page 307-8 or so) and so that Gobolord had compiled some very impressive data about deckbuilding that lead to successful decks. Some interesting things I've noticed is the high boost to win percentage to running 4x Mogg War Marshal, along with 4x gempalm. I'm curious if an "statistically ideal" build of Goblins was ever built out of that dataset. I imagine it's somewhat outdated at this point, but perhaps still relevant! Apologies if it was done and posted in the archived thread, I must have just missed it.

    3. Is Thalia a trap? Based on the matchup section, she doesn't seem to work in many of the matchups that she "should" be good in. I can understand if SBing her just for storm and reanimator though.

    Thanks for the new content!
    1. I don't want to talk you out of it. I'm running two in my maindeck right now. In this meta we have to deal with Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, Thought-Knot Seer, and who knows what else. The fact that this card is good against midrange, and small creature's means that this card is currently good in the meta. The reason the card is not generally run in the maindeck on the average is quite simple. It's clunky in the opener. A skilled opponent might not run out all of their threats into your Pyrokinesis, meaning at some point, and it will happen, you will get 2 for 1'd by your own card. Games where you need to kill just a Deathrite Shaman, or just a Stoneforge Mystic hurt a lot. On the reverse side though, the deck gains an out to a lot of situations, in addition to freeing up board space.

    2. I think those days are behind us. With creature efficiency only going up with each release, the days where we can afford to wait "another turn" are falling away fast. In Davis's article titled "Funeral For A Friend", he mentions how Tarfire is becoming a necessity, and I couldn't agree more. A way to deal with early creatures who present a ton of pressure is required. Mix that with the fact that each silver bullet you run in the main requires a cut from somewhere, and you get to where we are today. I really do want to run more Mogg War Marshals in my own lists (I tend to run 2), but cutting a singleton of my toolbox lowers percentages in match-ups where they are relevant by quite a bit, even if it's still in the board.

    3. Thalia is not a trap, I was just being realistic. She is hands down the best Legacy hate bear ever printed. In every spell based combo match, I want nothing more than for her to be in play at every moment. Is there more specific hate for the combo deck you are playing against? Probably, is there one as versatile and effective as Thalia? The next closest for our deck is probably Spirit of the Labyrinth, and I'd argue that gal is a league below (She is good, just not as good). I was just trying to let people know that she isn't for your fair match-ups. Your deck is already plenty good in those. Gobs have jobs, but they can't chump a Tendril's kill, Grindstone Activation, lifelinking Bargains, or even 7 Lightning Bolts. Leave fighting spell based aggro for the professionals. If I ever switch decks, it will be to D&T, and it is specifically because of Thalia.

    Edit:
    To be extra clear I tend to board her in against the following: Miracles, Mud Stax (Tentatively, still learning this match), Dredge, Manaless Dredge, Infect, ANT, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Cloudpost (on the play only), Enchantress, Stoneblade, Burn, Omnitell, High Tide, Sneak & Show, Mono Red Sneak Attack, Belcher, Landstill, Painter, and Turbo Depths. I even pulled that from my database of recent games I have played.

    You may have noticed that only a few of those are fair decks.
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  4. #24
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Happy to see some new life in this archetype! @GoboLord, thanks for everything! @Olaf, looking forward to seeing what comes of this!

    So I am playing a pretty stock list tomorrow (3x Tarfire in the main, because I was told to in my current meta, and a Plateau).

    My SB is a little wonky, but my meta is equally wonky. There is a good amount of Delver and DnT, but also some Enchantress, Zombardment, Omnitell, Nic Fit, assorted jank, etc.

    Here is what we have:

    2x OG Thalia
    4x Spirit of the Lab
    3x Relic of Progenitus
    2x Pyrokinesis
    1x Wear//Tear
    2x Red Elemental Blast
    1x Armageddon

    Not really sure what I am doing, but I don't like losing to combo if I can help it. Thoughts, comments, concerns are all appreciated!

  5. #25

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    1. I don't want to talk you out of it. I'm running two in my maindeck right now. In this meta we have to deal with Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, Thought-Knot Seer, and who knows what else. The fact that this card is good against midrange, and small creature's means that this card is currently good in the meta. The reason the card is not generally run in the maindeck on the average is quite simple. It's clunky in the opener. A skilled opponent might not run out all of their threats into your Pyrokinesis, meaning at some point, and it will happen, you will get 2 for 1'd by your own card. Games where you need to kill just a Deathrite Shaman, or just a Stoneforge Mystic hurt a lot. On the reverse side though, the deck gains an out to a lot of situations, in addition to freeing up board space.

    2. I think those days are behind us. With creature efficiency only going up with each release, the days where we can afford to wait "another turn" are falling away fast. In Davis's article titled "Funeral For A Friend", he mentions how Tarfire is becoming a necessity, and I couldn't agree more. A way to deal with early creatures who present a ton of pressure is required. Mix that with the fact that each silver bullet you run in the main requires a cut from somewhere, and you get to where we are today. I really do want to run more Mogg War Marshals in my own lists (I tend to run 2), but cutting a singleton of my toolbox lowers percentages in match-ups where they are relevant by quite a bit, even if it's still in the board.

    3. Thalia is not a trap, I was just being realistic. She is hands down the best Legacy hate bear ever printed. In every spell based combo match, I want nothing more than for her to be in play at every moment. Is there more specific hate for the combo deck you are playing against? Probably, is there one as versatile and effective as Thalia? The next closest for our deck is probably Spirit of the Labyrinth, and I'd argue that gal is a league below (She is good, just not as good). I was just trying to let people know that she isn't for your fair match-ups. Your deck is already plenty good in those. Gobs have jobs, but they can't chump a Tendril's kill, Grindstone Activation, lifelinking Bargains, or even 7 Lightning Bolts. Leave fighting spell based aggro for the professionals. If I ever switch decks, it will be to D&T, and it is specifically because of Thalia.

    Edit:
    To be extra clear I tend to board her in against the following: Miracles, Mud Stax (Tentatively, still learning this match), Dredge, Manaless Dredge, Infect, ANT, Reanimator, Tin Fins, Cloudpost (on the play only), Enchantress, Stoneblade, Burn, Omnitell, High Tide, Sneak & Show, Mono Red Sneak Attack, Belcher, Landstill, Painter, and Turbo Depths. I even pulled that from my database of recent games I have played.

    You may have noticed that only a few of those are fair decks.
    Fair enough on the Pyrokinesis! I was more just looking to see if anyone else had an opposing view and wanted to give it. I personally think it's one of the reasons to play the deck in some metas (like mine).

    On Thalia, I think I overstated my question. Thalia is unquestionably amazing (hence why D&T exists). I just thought you were going against the grain a bit saying that she isn't particularly good against other spell-heavy fair decks, such as delver. I've heard people say that Thalia is decent to bring in against delver, but you make good points that it makes the mana significantly shakier against other wastelands.

    On the subject of manabases, what do people generally think is the best splash right now? I'm currently mono red, and in my exceptionally fair meta I think that's fine. If combo was more prevalent, I like the black splash over others because Earwig squad can do some serious work, and access to cards like cabal therapy/thoughtseize seems like a nice bonus. White seems good for the aforementioned Thalia, but what else does white give you? Rest in Piece, sure, but that base can be reasonable covered by Relic of Progenitus. Nothing else springs to mind except other hatebears? Seems kinda meh. The black lets you be a lot more proactive with your hate, which seems good in the matchups that you need the hate the most.

  6. #26
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    1GoblinLackey

    <...>

    1. On the topic of maindeck pyrokinesis; why is it not done more often? (basically, talk me out of it?) It's extremely useful as a 2-of in many matchups, with the only downside I see is making ringleader marginally worse. However, this has led me to have only 1 maindeck gempalm (1-2 more in the side) . I feel a little uncomfortable with this, and was curious if anyone else thinks having more than 1 gempalm is a must. My overall removal suite is 2 Pyro, 2 Tarfire, 1 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter. I'd be curious about swapping a pyro for a gempalm, but perhaps having a 1-of pyro just isn't impactful by itself (1 pyrokinesis alone isn't gonna beat Elves).

    2. I was looking back on the archived thread (around page 307-8 or so) and so that Gobolord had compiled some very impressive data about deckbuilding that lead to successful decks. Some interesting things I've noticed is the high boost to win percentage to running 4x Mogg War Marshal, along with 4x gempalm. I'm curious if an "statistically ideal" build of Goblins was ever built out of that dataset. I imagine it's somewhat outdated at this point, but perhaps still relevant! Apologies if it was done and posted in the archived thread, I must have just missed it.

    3. Is Thalia a trap? Based on the matchup section, she doesn't seem to work in many of the matchups that she "should" be good in. I can understand if SBing her just for storm and reanimator though.

    Thanks for the new content!
    1. Based on Olaf advice, I tried 2 Pyrokinesis main deck over 2 tarfires instead of 4 and it was pretty good. It cleans a lot of delvers or DRS and open the path to the tribe. Most of the time, my opponents were not expecting that and it bothers their plan. I must admit that getting rid of a goblin hurts a lot and the choice is really hard to make. But Pyrokinesis helps so much to stabilize the board that I can't complain much. Especially on a 4/5 Tarmogoyf, becoming a 3/4 thanks to Relic of Progenitus ability

    2. 4x Mogg War Marshall and 4x Gempalm Incinerator would be so good. Sadly, these slots costs a lot and I wouldn't know what to cut in the flexible slots. Based on my latest experiences in tournaments (BOM Eternal Week-end, local tournaments and FNM mainly), it happens that Mogg War Marshall is MVP in most match-ups. It's three goblins in 1, it enhances the board presence, it gives gas to Gempalm, helps to chump block Tarmo/Gurmag/Batterskull/Eldrazis and the likes, and makes the party bigger for Piledriver. Still based on these small experience, I must tell that MWM helps me win more than Piledriver. I can count the times where Piledriver can attack with his buddies or stay on the board more than 1 turn. So, I decided to cut 2 Piledrivers to put 1 more MWM and 1 more Gempalm. The probability is low that a MWM gets bolted or sworded, unlike Piledriver. I feel that Gempalm is better with 3 MWM. Let's see if it helps.

    3. Nothing to add. Thalia is awesome!

    I would like to add that Olaf runs 1 Stingscourger main deck and 2 in the side. Actually, these 2 Stingscourgers help a lot. They make a lot of match-ups more favorable post side and the you can really feel the difference. I can only recommend other goblins fellows to test them, because it gives a nice feeling of being more prepared when Gurmag, a second Tarmo or an Endbringer come.

    Goblins deck techs aside, thanks to Gobolord for his tremendous amount of work during the last past years. I'm glad that Olaf continue the thread and hope he will lead the tribe to the throne again.

  7. #27
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    On the subject of manabases, what do people generally think is the best splash right now? I'm currently mono red, and in my exceptionally fair meta I think that's fine. If combo was more prevalent, I like the black splash over others because Earwig squad can do some serious work, and access to cards like cabal therapy/thoughtseize seems like a nice bonus. White seems good for the aforementioned Thalia, but what else does white give you? Rest in Piece, sure, but that base can be reasonable covered by Relic of Progenitus. Nothing else springs to mind except other hate bears? Seems kinda meh. The black lets you be a lot more proactive with your hate, which seems good in the matchups that you need the hate the most.
    Depends on what you are doing with it. I'm using the green splash in the main deck only for Tin Street Hooligan, because I like me some Goblin Piker. My White splash is exclusively for SB Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and if I feel like it Wear // Tear, Containment Priest, and Rest in Peace. I should note that I wouldn't run Rest in Peace without two Plateau in my main, because I happen to want it in some matches where Wasteland is prevalent. When people mention the black splash something a bit more extreme happens, often it's because of a main board card (Earwig Squad, Cabal Therapy, or Frogtosser Banneret) that you want to cast often, and so you tutor up Badlands a lot sooner, exposing yourself to Wasteland sooner / more often. And again, to go into the same detail as Rest in Peace I wouldn't run Perish in the board for the same reasoning. I want to make sure I can cast my spells. Consistency wins more games than raw power (I.E. Belcher and Storm).

    So that rant aside. The Black mainboard splash is good. The White SB splash is my pick for best actual splash, because of Thalia herself. I'm running the green splash exclusively for a better curve in Tin Street Hooligan, and I'd do it in the black splash as well, going Jund. The only time I actually prefer Tuktuk Scrapper is in Winstigator lists, that can abuse him with extra ETBs and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

    As a funny aside: I actually sleeved up 1 Goblin Piker for my local casual events once, for the looks. Great stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fourbirr View Post
    I would like to add that Olaf runs 1 Stingscourger main deck and 2 in the side. Actually, these 2 Stingscourgers help a lot. They make a lot of match-ups more favorable post side and the you can really feel the difference. I can only recommend other goblins fellows to test them, because it gives a nice feeling of being more prepared when Gurmag, a second Tarmo or an Endbringer come.
    I'm at 1MB, 1SB right now. When we spoke Reanimator was very popular in my area. With the uptick in Omnitell, and hybrid friends, I dropped one. I do think 2 is the number to have at this exact moment, as the first one against Reanimator never seems to be enough.

    Check my signature. Goblins 30 is my current build.
    Last edited by Olaf Forkbeard; 05-25-2017 at 01:07 AM. Reason: [cards] tag correction
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  8. #28

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Question for the forum:

    Where do you all tend to do your testing? I check the mtggoldfish metagame breakdown of legacy, and basically have never seen a single goblins deck posted on the list unless it was from a paper tournament. Is there a reason Goblins is so incredibly underrepresented online? With Miracles and Delver being such huge portions of the meta, while storm has fallen out a good bit, I would expect an uptick in Goblins. My only guess is that people don't want to buy into a relatively underpowered deck like Goblins because of the expense of Rishadan port. Is it just some strange anomaly that most Goblins players seem to only be playing on paper (possibly because it's a very old deck that people have just held onto)?

  9. #29
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Personally, I only test on paper, but it's not sufficient. Some XMage/Cockatrice testing would be mandatory for a competitive level.

  10. #30
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I have a question for everyone:

    Would you pay to see Jim Davis Stream (a League) and Deck Tech Legacy Goblins, while answering questions I bring up?

    He is willing to run any deck he has access to for $50, but unfortunately I am unemployed. I can put forth the first 10 when it comes around though, with relative ease. Is there any interest in this? I think his input on what a deck should currently look like, where it ultimately stands, and what it needs to improve would be a huge asset to our community. You could submit questions and we could answered! If you guys are willing to wait it out, I'll do it on my own when I am stable again, but that is months away.

    So Is there any interest in this? Please let me know.

    (If there is interest I'll talk to Jim, on twitch, about getting us to directly throw him money that way there is no middle man. I've already brought up the idea of him running the deck a while back.)
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  11. #31
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    I have a question for everyone:

    Would you pay to see Jim Davis Stream (a League) and Deck Tech Legacy Goblins, while answering questions I bring up?

    He is willing to run any deck he has access to for $50, but unfortunately I am unemployed. I can put forth the first 10 when it comes around though, with relative ease. Is there any interest in this? I think his input on what a deck should currently look like, where it ultimately stands, and what it needs to improve would be a huge asset to our community. You could submit questions and we could answered! If you guys are willing to wait it out, I'll do it on my own when I am stable again, but that is months away.

    So Is there any interest in this? Please let me know.

    (If there is interest I'll talk to Jim, on twitch, about getting us to directly throw him money that way there is no middle man. I've already brought up the idea of him running the deck a while back.)
    I too have thought about this, even if only to watch the master at work. Ultimately it would just be a waste of $50 though. He has played Goblins a couple of times on stream and while it was cool to watch him play, it was sad to watch him get crushed because his opponents were playing 2016 Legacy while he was playing 2006 Legacy.

    I was playing BURG Delver on Modo the other day and crushed Goblins 2-0, twice. Delver traded with Lackey and Abrupt Decay hit his Vial. While he tried to build up to 3 mana, I killed him instead. I say this not to brag, but to be realistic. Goblins is just too slow, too much of a dog to it's own variance, loses almost instantly to multiple fatties, sucks against opposing mana-denial and obviously is a literal goldfish against combo. I've just listed the entire format for you.

    If you're after his most recent list, this is it:
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I was actually kinda thinking the opposite, and wondering what it would be like to play in the "Megadeus and Stevestamops Presents: The Nedleeds Memorial Tournament" (banlist: just the regular legacy one, except survival is legal and all blue cards are not).

  12. #32
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Goblins is just too slow, too much of a dog to it's own variance, loses almost instantly to multiple fatties, sucks against opposing mana-denial and obviously is a literal goldfish against combo. I've just listed the entire format for you.
    I'll agree with the variance, this is a mulligan heavy deck, and of course the mulligan scenario has been true for the length of the deck's existence, but I just haven't experienced such a degree of losses to what you're mentioning. I only really feel the mana denial actually work when AEther Vial isn't present.

    On the fair side of things Goblins loses to pressure mixed with 1 sided wraths. Elesh Norn, Tarmogoyf with Toxic Deluge / Rough, Engineered Plague and a clock, an unstopped Jitte etc. On the macro level it does not lose to fatties at all, and when piloted properly, you make the fatties irrelevant. Similar to how Young Pyromancer is good against Goyf. If I only see Tarmogoyv's out of my opponents deck that is not a terrible place to be. It's only when they have draws that support both the pressure and a psuedo wipe. Yes, I consider 3 Tarmogoyv's an issue, nobody is arguing that, but that is basically true of any deck trying to win fair.

    That said if by fatties you meant Reanimator and Show & Tell, I stand by my point that there needs to be an Elesh Norn, Pyroclasm or some effect like that to actually cause the straight loss, short of them having the nuts. Everyone loses to the nut draws, and that's fine, that is kind of the advantage of running that type of deck.

    I've just not experienced such issues since 2013, when True-Name Nemesis had just became a card and everyone was hedging -1/-1 effects in their lists.

    Lastly I'm just not pulling records that indicate your implied situation. I quickly calculated it out using my own records and I am currently running a 72% win ratio against the expected field, and those are the kind of numbers you need to be pulling to run a tournament, or at least go deep. I'll admit I'd like my sample size to be larger, and I am working on that actively, but everything I see with my own data and research tells me that this is still a good deck. Honestly I think the biggest thing holding the deck back is actually play skill. The deck is simply not an aggro deck, and I see SOOO many lists, and players, running it like it is one.

    This information can be found in my Signature under the tab "% Against the Expected Field."

    Edit: My question still stands, does anyone care enough? As I said, I will do it myself if there is not enough group interest in a few months.
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  13. #33

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    I'll agree with the variance, this is a mulligan heavy deck, and of course the mulligan scenario has been true for the length of the deck's existence, but I just haven't experienced such a degree of losses to what you're mentioning. I only really feel the mana denial actually work when AEther Vial isn't present.

    On the fair side of things Goblins loses to pressure mixed with 1 sided wraths. Elesh Norn, Tarmogoyf with Toxic Deluge / Rough, Engineered Plague and a clock, an unstopped Jitte etc. On the macro level it does not lose to fatties at all, and when piloted properly, you make the fatties irrelevant. Similar to how Young Pyromancer is good against Goyf. If I only see Tarmogoyv's out of my opponents deck that is not a terrible place to be. It's only when they have draws that support both the pressure and a psuedo wipe. Yes, I consider 3 Tarmogoyv's an issue, nobody is arguing that, but that is basically true of any deck trying to win fair.

    That said if by fatties you meant Reanimator and Show & Tell, I stand by my point that there needs to be an Elesh Norn, Pyroclasm or some effect like that to actually cause the straight loss, short of them having the nuts. Everyone loses to the nut draws, and that's fine, that is kind of the advantage of running that type of deck.

    I've just not experienced such issues since 2013, when True-Name Nemesis had just became a card and everyone was hedging -1/-1 effects in their lists.

    Lastly I'm just not pulling records that indicate your implied situation. I quickly calculated it out using my own records and I am currently running a 72% win ratio against the expected field, and those are the kind of numbers you need to be pulling to run a tournament, or at least go deep. I'll admit I'd like my sample size to be larger, and I am working on that actively, but everything I see with my own data and research tells me that this is still a good deck. Honestly I think the biggest thing holding the deck back is actually play skill. The deck is simply not an aggro deck, and I see SOOO many lists, and players, running it like it is one.

    This information can be found in my Signature under the tab "% Against the Expected Field."

    Edit: My question still stands, does anyone care enough? As I said, I will do it myself if there is not enough group interest in a few months.
    Hey Olaf,

    I tought about this for a while but i am for sure no fan of his list. I think krenko is way better than SGC. But that personal. Also i dont like Tin Street Hooligan, because of the nonbo with warchief. And besides that i think chalice is better than thalia. And finally i think mindbreaktrap is not the answer vs combo. Combo plays discard spells opposing counterspells and thinks like probe (so they see it comming).

    So not Sound arrogant but i think Jim Davis is a verry good player but his list is not suited to beat the meta. And iam not looking forward to a decktech wich havent changed in 10 years looking at the list. If you like his list YouTube for Kenny dungar;) he won scg with goblins years ago.


    I would Love to Talk with you about it via Skype. The 10 dollars aint the problem. I just dont think i like his approach and the fact that he stills plays a list of 10 years Old.
    Please let me know if you are available to nght arond 20:00 CET or tomorrow arround 19:00 CET

  14. #34
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I agree with the variance part and want to add that the variance also comes from the MU lottery. The deck is exceptionally strong against a couple of decks (D&T, Miracles, Eldrazi) and just as weak against others (Storm, Elves, Reanimator). Add that to the fact that you need a certain level of understanding for those positive MU to be truly positive (a bad Player will still lose against Miracles more often than a good player) , while the same is not True for your negative MUs (your skill Level doesnt carry much weight against Storm).

    On the topic of mana issues vs. Delver decks: I have recently included 3 copies of Carpet of Flowers in my SB and they are (unsprisingly) Good against Delver decks and blue Blade decks. As Steve stated above: if you lose , you are losing while trying to secure your manabase. It's not uncommon to watch your lifepoints drop to 0 while you are still holding onto that Ringleader in your hand.
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  15. #35
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    Edit: My question still stands, does anyone care enough? As I said, I will do it myself if there is not enough group interest in a few months.
    Put me in for 10 Trump bux.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I was actually kinda thinking the opposite, and wondering what it would be like to play in the "Megadeus and Stevestamops Presents: The Nedleeds Memorial Tournament" (banlist: just the regular legacy one, except survival is legal and all blue cards are not).

  16. #36
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @Olaf: You can also count on my 10 bucks.

    Honestly I think the biggest thing holding the deck back is actually play skill. The deck is simply not an aggro deck, and I see SOOO many lists, and players, running it like it is one.
    It's very true. For my part, my win ratio has increased drastically against the same decks and same players since I know better how to pilot the deck. The sideboard choices are so important, too. Not to mention the shuffling, the mental tiredness, the psychological aspect, the luck factor of what he/you draw. The list is not everything.

  17. #37

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @Olaf, I don't know if asking Jim to play Goblins is a good idea. Everytime I bring it up on his stream, he seems to brush off the deck as completely unplayable. I also don't believe he'd enjoy playing it, which is important on a viewers level. I don't want to watch Jim Davis, renowned Goblins master, have a miserable time with Goblins. As others have pointed out above, his list is pretty outdated. After playing more and more matches, I find that maindeck pyrokinesis is practically a must, and Siege-Gang is pretty bad (with a few matchup exceptions). I doubt Jim has updated his deck since his "funeral for a friend" article.

    In other news, I played Goblins against a couple friends at an LGS' casual magic night (which is basically legacy night for a lot of us there). I didn't win many games, but that is very much to be expected for me, as this day basically marks my first time playing my deck against a group of people in paper. I'm also still on a budget list, though it didn't hurt me too terribly (I didn't play against any blue decks so caverns didn't matter, and my ghost quarters did a decent job as port replacements, occasionally acting as a strip mine). I do have some notes/thoughts from the day though.

    Played 2 Game 1s against Elves. I almost won the 2nd game, but still died to a quick 'hoof. My biggest problem throughout the day was obstinately refusing to mulligan when I really should have. For example, I kept on the play; Vial, Mountain, GQ,Pendelhaven, MWM, Matron, Prospector. Looking back, I really should have been mulliganing to Pyro or Sharpshooter. This is something I think will come in practice. I'm used to playing spell heavy control decks (Grixis Control FTW), so Lands+Spells has usually gotten me there in the past. I see how conditional Goblins, and legacy as a format, are, and will adjust accordingly.

    Moving on to Maverick. The Game 1 we played was absolutely amazing. MWM pulled his weight harder than ever. The opening turns went my way with Pyrokinesis killing off either 2 mothers or 1 deathrite and a stoneforge (I don't recall). Over the course of the game, my opponent started to really go nuts with Knight of the Reliquary, while I occasionally could swing in with the team for a few points of damage, then refill and block with ringleaders. My opponent had gone really deep, and GSZ'd for.....Gitrog. I sat back on my piles of chump blockers while accrued insane card advantage between Knight and Gitrog. However, I had managed to keep the board equipment-free, and eventually he had to sac the gitrog because I had ported and strip mined his lands so low (He had fortunately never found a Loam, despite only have 20 cards left in his deck or so). Over all of this, he would only attack with 1-2 of his 15/15 knights because of the fear of a lethal crackback (he was hovering between 8-12 throughout most of the lategame). I had close to a dozen goblins in play (Mostly MWM tokens, lackeys, matrons, 3 ringleaders, and 2 warchiefs).

    However, the game sped up considerably when he SFM'd for a sword of Fire and Ice. I kept him from playing it for awhile via port and the GQs, but eventually multiple deathrites allowed him to cast it. With sword in play, and I facing down 3 15/15 knights (1 tapped), 2 deathrites ( 1 tapped) a Thalia, a Stoneforge, and a Quasli Pridemage. I knew that I only had 3 possible outs; Krenko, Tuktuk, or Chieftain. I prayed to the the Goblin gods and flipped the top of my deck for...Krenko! I vialed it in with no fear (and no choice), knowing he had already gotten and sacrificed his Karakas for the Frog. Activating Krenko put 13 goblin tokens into play, and I swung with about 30odd power of creatures. Alas, my victory was not to be, as he exiled a land with deathrite to cast Swords to Plowshares on his own tapped knight, going up to 25. My entire swing after blocks left me 4 damage short, and I conceded to the pro-red knight on the crackback. I'm pretty proud of this game, and I'm not sure how I could have played it better. I could have gone for Krenko earlier, but Karakas kept me from it. The only possible mistake was when I pitched a Sharpshooter relatively early on for Pyro. It would have made all the difference (though that is very results orientated thinking, so idk).

    After that absolute marathon (game easily lasted over an hour), we went to sideboards. These games were much less eventful, and I lost both of the 2 sideboarded games we played, once again due to pilot error (I made a huge mistake not matroning for Tuktuk when I knew he had Jitte in hand; I don't know why I decided to get Chieftain instead, I think I just thought I'd be able to kill him before the Jitte got online). The 3rd game was pretty noncompetitive, I once again should have mulliganed and didn't.

    The other games I played were against a mono-green infect variant that was on a bit of a budget, and I easily took those. Turn 4 kill while tarfiring the lone glistener elf was pretty good.

    My question for the forum is in regard to sideboarding against maverick. I felt like I had overboarded a bit, as well as underestimated lackey. Here's the list I had today;

    4 Vials

    23 Lands:
    4 Wasteland
    1 Cavern
    2 Ghost Quarter
    1 Port
    1 Pendelhaven
    14 Mountain

    27 Creatures
    4 Lackey
    4 Warchief
    4 Matron
    4 Ringleader
    3 War Marshal
    3 Piledriver
    1 Gempalm
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Sharpshooter
    1 Skirk Prospector

    4 Instants
    2 Tarfire
    2 Pyrokinesis

    Sideboard:
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Relic
    1 Gempalm
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Pyrokinesis
    2 REB
    1 Siege-Gang
    1 Sharpshooter
    1 Warping Wail

    I boarded as such; -3 Lackey, -2 Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Tarfire (As you can see, I felt pretty unsure). I knew Piledriver was correct to take out (and probably should have taken out all 3). I added +3 Pithing Needle, +2 Relic, +1 Gempalm, +1 Siege-Gang, +1 Tuktuk. Looking back, I think I should have kept Lackeys in, especially on the play. Tarfire could probably have also stayed, but perhaps not. I should have also played the 3rd relic over the Siege-Gang because it makes the Maverick engine basically inoperable, but I was afraid of lowering my goblin count even lower in such a grindy matchup. However, all of this leaves me with the question of what else do I board out if I leave in Lackey? Deck space definitely felt like a problem.

    After discussing the match with my opponent later in the evening, I thought about a possible consideration for the sideboard; Price of Progress. I play an absurd number of basics, and I had multiple occasions where I had gotten my opp to around 10 life or so thanks to pot shots when the board was clear, but couldn't get much further without sacrificing my board too much. Does PoP have a place in Goblins, or at least my current build of it? I understand why it wouldn't work in the 4 Port, 4 Waste, 4 Cavern lists (not even accounting for any possible dual lands), but do any of you experienced goblins pilots have input?

    My god this post turned out much longer than I expected. Thanks for reading my wall of text. I had a blast with the deck despite my poor game win %, and as I said, the majority of my losses were my own, not the deck's. Had I played better, I think I could have broken even on Maverick games. The matchup doesn't seem too bad, despite them having a lot of we fear in fair matchups.

  18. #38
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    Edit: My question still stands, does anyone care enough? As I said, I will do it myself if there is not enough group interest in a few months.
    No, not interested. The reason for this is pretty simple: you either play because you love it, or not play ar all. You don't play because you get paid to do so. Honestly, I love this deck, but it is hard without an proper update of useable Goblins: Disenchant, Haste, Pump, or Vial Smasher without the Legendary-type. Hell, somekind of really weird combo-Goblin (I really don't know what exactly) would be great too!
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  19. #39
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    4 Vials

    23 Lands:
    4 Wasteland
    1 Cavern
    2 Ghost Quarter
    1 Port
    1 Pendelhaven
    14 Mountain

    27 Creatures
    4 Lackey
    4 Warchief
    4 Matron
    4 Ringleader
    3 War Marshal
    3 Piledriver
    1 Gempalm
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Sharpshooter
    1 Skirk Prospector

    4 Instants
    2 Tarfire
    2 Pyrokinesis

    Sideboard:
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Relic
    1 Gempalm
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Pyrokinesis
    2 REB
    1 Siege-Gang
    1 Sharpshooter
    1 Warping Wail
    I'd love to throw a pointer out, but your list is 58 cards in the main?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    No, not interested. The reason for this is pretty simple: you either play because you love it, or not play ar all. You don't play because you get paid to do so. Honestly, I love this deck, but it is hard without an proper update of useable Goblins: Disenchant, Haste, Pump, or Vial Smasher without the Legendary-type. Hell, somekind of really weird combo-Goblin (I really don't know what exactly) would be great too!
    @turn1lackey - He didn't seem so down on the idea when I proposed it to him a few months ago, but it seems there just isn't as much interest as I thought.

    Hmm. I guess I just thought there would be more interest in this type of thing. Noted, and moving on.
    Last edited by Olaf Forkbeard; 11-10-2016 at 02:24 PM.
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  20. #40

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    [QUOTE=Olaf Forkbeard;977777]I'd love to throw a pointer out, but your list is 58 cards in the main?



    I'm an idiot I forgot to type the 1 Chieftain and the 1 Tuktuk Scrapper.

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