I started building goblins again the other night and when thinking about all of the DRS running around I think 4 tarfire is nice. Elves hurt so it takes out key cards early on and let's lackey get down and hit. I thought about throwing 2 Smelt in the side but I'm not too sure. Is that a bad card to take in? I'm running mono red and I'm blanking on side board options. Blood moon, pithing needle, Smelt and I think blazing volley would be good. Pyrokenisis and karakas seem to fit?
Problem with gemstone caverns is it is legendary. Not the best when you're on the play bc multiples are dead.
If you're going to play instigator (4), you likely must play mox. If you aren't dedicated to him, the ramp is optional.
-rob
How strong is Warren Weirding right now?
is it worth cutting utility lands to jam the B splash for WW?
Just got to brainstorm in response to my lackey trigger with a grenzo trigger on MTGO. Brainstormed into a siege gang. That felt good.
Then I exiled past in flames vs storm, which also felt pretty good.
Alright, I thought getting storm to scoop to their own thoughtseize was as good as it got, but I think you take the cake for best Grenzo yet. Good thinking to stack the Grenzo trigger first.Originally Posted by Quackers
Playing in our weekly event tomorrow, I'll have a copy of Grenzo in there for sure, let you all know the results. I've done most of my testing of him as a two-of, but I can only find 1 since the shop doesn't have any in stock.
Gemstone Positives
- T0 tempo gain on the draw
- Exiles any card to produce colored mana, meaning you can exile another land or even a Chrome Mox
- Better topdeck than Chrome mox since it can be played after T0 and does not create card disadvantage at that point, but only produces colorless
Gemstone Negatives
- Legendary, so bad in multiples, though you can exile one Gemstone Cavern to another T0
- Just another colorless mana source after T0
- No tempo gain ever on the play, meaning its just a colorless mana source in half the games we play. Chrome Mox is always a better tempo card on the Play. However, if you don't NEED tempo on the play then Gemstone could be better than Chrome because it doesn't make you lose CA.
Whether Gemstone or Mox is stronger is very situational.
T0 on the Play Chrome Mox is better, unless you have a land-heavy hand and no R cards you can afford to exile, in which case it might just be better to have Gemstone as another colorless mana source, or if you're just not hurting for Tempo because you were on the play anyway.
T0 on the draw Gemstone is strictly better, since you can exile any kind of card for it. This is the only situation where I see no upside to Mox over Gemstone.
T2 onward Gemstone is a better topdeck, UNLESS you're in need of R mana.
If you have no hand left Gemstone is a better topdeck than Mox.
If you have cards stuck in hand Mox is a better topdeck than Gemstone.
If you're ahead in the game it's a wash... Maybe the R and tempo from Mox is better, maybe not giving up CA with Gemstone is better.
If you're behind in the game it's entirely situational, though I can see Mox being a little better at getting you back in the game with tempo and board position.... On the other hand, if you're low on cards and just need one more land to cast a Ringleader you probably want Gemstone rather than Mox.
I can see 2 Mox, 1 Gemstone as a decent mix.
I play D&T and have the manabase for gobos, so thinking about getting the red critters and jamming some goblins love. What is the MU like vs Storm, Elves, Infect and Burn?
"Ach! Hans, run! It's the Lhurgoat!"
Hey there! Glad to see someone else pick up the deck.
Matchups:
Storm is pretty unfavorable, but certainly not unwinnable. We can race their slow draws, and a t2 or t3 earwig squad will win the game on the spot. That being said, we're probably 25/75 odds to win game one (I've personally had better results than this, but I don't play against storm that often so small sample size). Postboard tends be a lot better, as we can cut a ton of dead cards (ringleader and our removal spells), and add a lot of permanent based hate like Chalice, Thorn of Amethyst, Leyline of the Void, Graf Cage, Relic of Progenitus, you name it. I'm also personally a big fan of cabal therapy if you're already playing black for Earwig. Flashing back therapy with a War Marshal is like build-your-own Young PyromancerI think Storm might be 45/55 post board. Aggressively mulligan and kill them quickly. Try to make Ad Nauseum as unattractive as possible.
Elves I think is our most favored matchup of all the combo decks. There are certain draws of ours on the play that basically cannot lose (land, land, lackey, tarfire, sharpshooter/siege gang, whatever else) game 1. If you're maindecking pyrokinesis, it also gets much easier. Once again, Earwig Squad saves you a ton of work, since if you extract the 'hoofs (and post-board, Progenitus), they have to play fair, which we are definitely better at. On the draw things are a good bit tougher game 1, you really need them to not hit natural order by turn 4 (which is the earliest you can get a sharpshooter online unless you're super lucky and can go t1 prospector into t2 sharpshooter). I think game 1 is therefore quite close, probably 40-60 in their favor, maybe even 45-55 depending on build. Again, postboard makes this better. Extra Pyros, sharpshooters, chalice, blood moon, graf cage, and therapy/thoughtseize all do good work (though I like chalice less than most in this MU). If you're really scared of elves, Perish or Engineered Plague are options as well. I think we're decently favored postboard, probably 65-35. Watch out for Abrupt Decay on your sharpshooter though.
Infect I have not much experience against, but it's a lot like elves in terms of the relevant card (sharpshooter plus prospector and some random dudes basically puts them in a hard lock, pyrokinesis is insane). Gempalm incinerator is especially valuable here, since they can't counter it without using pump spells. Wasteland and port tie up inkmoth nicely, so the only threat that is truly scary is Blighted Agent. Probably a 50/50 matchup all around.
Burn is rough, but will probably significantly depend on how good your burn opponent is. Bad burn players will probably get smashed by goblins, good ones won't. Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief are all invaluable here, as the more you can force them to spend burn spells on them, the less damage you'll eat to the face. Eidolon is strangely not very good against us because of Vial, and our curve going up to 4 and 5, so you can actually keep casting spells and not take damage. Gempalm plays a huge role in the matchup, as it kills a goblin guide with only 1 other goblin in play (or just 2 guides), and kills eidolon without taking damage. Playing around PoP is tough but doable, especially if you're on mono red (I imagine it's similar to how D&T deals with it; leave up a wasteland for your own karakas/port). However, Goblins is nothing if not capable of clunky draws that would make draft decks look embarrassed. So there's always a chance you see the mono-3-drops.hand and will be too slow. General rule for the matchup is the more creatures they draw, the better off you are since you can interact with them. The more spells, the worse, unless you're playing Thorn, which I've found to be quite strong against them (same with Chalice, which can lock them out pretty hard). Extra pyros are also good here, since they can wipe the board past an Eidolon. Therapy is also good here, despite opening yourself up to PoP. Dunno what I'd put the odds at for this one, I've had generally a positive win ratio against burn, but I know that my local burn players aren't exactly specialists with the deck. Watch out for searing effects and grim lavamancer, though there's not much you can do about the former.
Good luck! Hope this was helpful.
Forgot to mention: the white splash for D&T staples is quite common if not Mono Red or RB: If you're on white, it's quite common to have 3 Thalia, 1-2 Containment Priest, and 1-2 Canonist in the sideboard. RIP makes an appearance sometimes as well, though we tend to prefer Relic because it's a turn faster (sorta) and doesn't require us to get white mana against wasteland decks like BUG Delver (where we need Relic a lot to shrink goyf and weaken DRS).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqDmp63C6tU
goblins vs jeff hoogland's BW deadguy ale here at 24'
I was goldfishing a stock list with the a Mox/Gemstone manabase last night. Having Mox/Gemstone on the draw felt super strong and I'm bringing it to a tourney tonight to test drive it. Mox/Gemstone starts enable Waste/Port to be way more powerful, so I'm rocking the full playset of each. I had to cut 1 Cavern of Souls to make room. Having 4 Waste/Port makes adding a splash difficult. I still want to jam some Weirdings but I don't know how to configure the manabase yet.
2 Chrome Mox
1 Gemstone Caverns
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Port
8 Mountain
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Cieftain
2 Warchief
2 Siege-gang Commander
1 Krenko
4 Tafire
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
1 Sparksmith
I'll let you know how it goes!
With that list, I'd just stick to monored. You don't really need weirdings there, having bounce and 4 Piledrivers.
Not a fan of 2 things there:
1 - Chieftains - Warchief is just so much better with Piledrivers, your Chieftains are not gonna do much. I could stand by a 3/1 Split, but I'd go all the way 4/0.
2 - 2nd Stingscourger. Don't really see the point. Your list could run artifact hate md, Grenzo, 5th hastelord. You have quite a lot of removal already.
Let us know how it goes and good luck!
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
1- Warchief is probably stronger in this build. I have enough x/2s that the -1/-1 effects shouldn't be enough of a concern to value Cheiftain more highly than Warchief.
2. I'm a big fan of 2 Stingers. Have been for a while. Just being better against SnT and Reanimator is huge. Being able to bounce Goyfs and KotR in midrangey MUs is always strong. And it is removal you can cast off of Cavern.
Artifact hate- I don't like it. I had one more slot for a 4-drop and it was going to be either Tuktuk or Krenko. Krenko is just better, and it can fight through a Sword, batterskull or Jitte, and it had wayyyy more upside in non-Equipment MUs than Tuktuk does.
Grenzo, Havoc Raiser - He's too cute. I mean, he really is adorable, but I'm not banking on him ever. He'll probably just eat removal before you get any value out of him. He's RR so he's difficult to hardcast T2. And suicide swinging through blockers with the hope of getting cards off Grenzo triggers seems like asking for a blowout.
Weirding just seems really strong right now with all the Goyfs, True Names and equipment in the format. I might be able to make room for the black splash if I cut all my basic Mountains for Badlands and Auntie's Hovels. Are 8 Black sources enough to support 2 cards?
egoblinsw got 21st at Worcester with 2 Weirdings and 23 mana sources, 9 of which could make Black. Maybe i just shave down to 3 Warchiefs and jam 9 R/B sources.... And I could cut 1 Gempalm and 1 Stinger for 2 Weirding.
Hi jrw1985
You wrote a lot of different things, so I'll only comment 2 main issues I see.
Bouncing a Goyf don't solve the problem, just delay it for one turn. What about crushing him into pieces with a big fat piledriver, you have 4? Problem solved.
Hmmm, it's risky, I wouldn't cut Tuktuk. More and more Miracles players are choosing Stoneblade decks. Expect to see a lot of Batterskull+Jitte very soon. Hence, a Tuktuk may always come in handy, also against Storm or Reanimator to force them to crack their Petal, Moxes or LED.
Other thoughts, see below:
- What's the idea behind adding Krenko in this list? I mean, you already have 34 goblins, including 9 removals and 2 bouncers. That's is more than enough resources to go wide, create a breach for Piledriver to go through blockers and make one big swing.
- With so many removals and only 4 haste lords, what's your plan against combo? It can be you have many removals in hand instead of attackers.
- Is Sparksmith replacing Sharpshooter? Sharpshooter is a serial killer.
- Where are the 2-drops?
Otherwise, I'm curious to read your report about this manabase, it seems fast.
Sharpshooter is a serial killer.
I've read through the last couple pages and it seems like most people are either playing moxes and winstigators (even chalices on the board) or splashing black. Is the Jim Davis playstile of splashing white and green not good right now? His sideboard of 3x Thalia, 2x Containment Priest, 3x Mindbreak, 3x Relic, 3x Pyrokinesis, 1x Hooligan seems straight up gas. I think if I go for Gobos I will start with this proven deck from Davis (although I am pretty pretty pretty far from him skills, of course), especially coming from a D&T deck, having Thalias and Priests in the board make me feel safer/at home.
Is this incorrect? Am I missing something because of this? I really enjoy seeing Goblins play, and when I started playing Legacy I used to borrow Rwg Gobos and enjoyed playing vs miracles and landstill. Maybe I am biased from the deck I come from and my previous experience (although short) with Rwg. I do have Therapies and can get Badlands without too much trouble, but I just want to understand if this is a general consensus or just new experimental builds post Top ban.
EDIT: For the people playing winstigator, have you considered using one flex slot for Umezawa's Jitte?
Last edited by tarmogoat; 05-18-2017 at 10:21 PM.
"Ach! Hans, run! It's the Lhurgoat!"
I play winstigator with a white sb. My meta generally has a high combo %, so a turn 1 Thalia, priest, rest in peace cam steal some games. If you have a meta similar to that (ant/reanimator/fast combo) it can be stronger. Black gives you access to weird ingredients, which can be better Vs goyf and tnn decks.
I have a Jitte in the 75 as well. Not convinced it's the best card for the deck, but I enjoy connecting with double strike.
-rob
Stingscourger is a better at dealing with goyf than piledriver. Stingscourger is non conditional.
Tuktuk against Storm is ummmmmm trash. Krenko at least puts on pressure.
Krenko is in the list because he wins fair MUs. He breaks open boards stuck at parity. That's completely different from piledrivers role.
Haste lords aren't good against combo. They're good against control. 3 drop haste lords are not a threat to combo. Plan against combo is lose graciously, or steal a win by fucking up their manabase while connecting with Lackey. Oh and sideboards. Also a lot of the removal is for SnT type combo, hence Stingscourgers.
Sparksmith over sharpshooter because sparky is cheaper and can actually kill x/2s. That seems to matter.
Tons of two drops when you consider Gempalm.
Manabase is fast. I'm digging 2/1 Mox Gemstone split. We still gotta get lucky though. No Big Red acceleration for us. A second R manasource T1 let's us do silly things. I wonder if it's even worth upping the number of Mox to 3.
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I thought the list that Jim Davis recommended was mono red, i took a look at his funeral for a friend article and only saw R & R/G. Either way, i wouldn't pay attention to his lists/opinions on the deck until he puts quite a bit more time back into the deck. He has this fixed idea that the deck is bad(it's definitely not T1but, it's not bad), he has refused to make changes to his goblin base and refused to splash W/B for a better combo match-up. A single/double splash is fine as long as it is light so that you don't have to depend on basics for your splashes. Depending on basics for your splashes means that you have to take out some of the mana-denial plan or, run less fetches(makes it harder to get splash colors), cutting the mana-denial plan. I don't agree with cutting the mana-denial plan seeing as it is apart of the deck's core strategy, just as it is with D&T. I also think that the 1 of karakas/pendelhaven is a terrible idea and do not think you should do this when splashing. The reasons being:
1. you can never consistently get them
2. the deck is honestly kind of light on R mana for tarfire/gempalm/other as it is and this only further pushes that problem
3. in order to fit more to fix the problem of consistency, you have to cut mana-denial/basics/fetches
I think the white splash for thalia is definitely goood in general and especially right now with all the combo running around, and i think you should also throw in RIP(goyfs/KoTR/Turn2-3 GY decks). If your local meta has faster GY decks such as BR reanimator then, i like using faerie macabre instead since it's a lot faster. As for containment priest, i don't like her for goblins since we have a tutor-able answer(stingscourger).
@tarmogoat I'm on the classic list, and I doubt I'll change to WInstigator for any event larger than 4 rounds. I find the WInstigator lists to be slanted so aggressive that it has a harder time shifting roles. That's fine for a local 4 round deal, but in a long even I want maximum role changing capability. I Actually think the big thing Jim doesn't want to do is run a full set of Tarfire when it's correct. And the more Deathrite Shaman there is, the more correct it is. I always end up happier with 4 Tarfire and 2 Gempalms, or a 3/3 split than 4 Gems and 2 Tarfires. I do swap when the meta get's super, super fair though. For the local's the WInstigator list is usually a tad better as everyone knows what your on, and bring out narrow haymakers they wouldn't in a large event. Speed matters there.
@PrinceCortez I generally agree on the mana base. If you want to run some other land it should probably be Mountain or a 24th land. I really like the powerful mana denial available to the deck. I also pretty much agree with the white splash. I've tried both Cabal Therapy builds and Thalia builds during testing and I always find more success at the end of testing with Thalia as my generic combo hate. As for Priest, I waffle on her. I've been in a both scenario's where Sting or Priest would be better comparatively a tad too often. I usually end up on Priest if only because she "locks" up a game instead of forcing me to race even faster. I don't think their power level is that far apart though for what we do with them. I do think there is a lot to be said about running both, the diversity is harder to play against from the opponent's point of view.
---
So I'm heading out to a local 1k on the 27th. I'm rather excited as I much prefer events larger than 4 rounds. What do you guys think will be represented upcoming? My generic overview I do before each large event says Grixis Delver is the most popular deck. Storm is strong (but that is likely pushed up due to MTGO). After that it's a small menagerie of decks Stoneblade, Show & Tell, UR Delver, BUG (Shardless and Delver), Elves, Infect, D&T, Stompy, and BR Reanimator. You can see more "data" on this, in my signature, in the "1k Prep" tab.
So I'm aware that Gobolord has tested out Carpet of Flowers. Has anyone else also delved in that area? I know his opinion on it, unless it's changed? Would you run it with less than 2 green sources (against 4 Wasteland Grixis Delver)? I'm looking for somethings super specific to beat Grixis Delver as I expect to play against it multiple times at this event. I also quite sure Esper Deathblade will be there, as it's a popular deck in paper, but people COULD NOT play it reasonably in a Miracles meta. I'll be doing an in person testing night this week to find out more, but I will never turn down more information.
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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I like priest better as a hate card for reanimator/SnT/SnS. The reason i don't play her is because; stingscourger is tutor-able, and i don't want to have to dedicate that many sideboard slots to her. I like keeping my sideboard as generic and as possible, and she kind of goes against that.
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