Got it, thanks. That does sound familiar. How many games is this based on? Could be the a case of "variance of small numbers".I am actually referencing Esper Stoneblade specifically, to be clear. I kind of just push plain ol' UW down. I find that at a critical moment I run into Zealous Persecution mid combat, and the tempo falls away to True-Name Nemesis. That's honestly about it, literally those 2 cards, but always in combination. Additionally I find it quite aggravating that I can get punished for keeping control hands against this match-up, simply because they have 1 TNN.
Could also be one of those MU that work differently with Winstigator vs. Classic version (pretty much opposite to how odds are balanced vs. Eldrazi).
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
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I agree with the first part of this sentence, but I would be be very careful to engage BUG delver decks on the tempo field. Killing a DRS + denialing their mana is a rare thing to do. Most of the time, we want to have the mana to cast our creatures as fast as possible, because we know they will tempo us out, especially on the draw. The power level of their creatures is by definition bigger than ours. With a 1 CMC, they deal 3 unblockable damages and with B they bring a big 5/5 sardine. With a vial in play, maybe, it's doable.
Early game, the first color we want to cut is blue, to wreck their cantrips. Then black, so they can't cast Gurmag Angler, then green so that they don't gain life with DRS and black again to avoid DRS shocks.
that make sense. mana denial works better with vial and/or lackey out, otherwise building our own manabase is very important.
@everybody: what do you think about 4-colour control, grixis control MUs? what's your plan here?
i played at a 30 player tournament last sunday loosing 1-2 two times against this deck. i feel like the mu is doable on the play while is very hard on the draw (i played mono R with tombs and magus)
Find an opponent and practice it. It wasn't so bad after I knew the match-up. Goblin Ringleader is probably at his actual best (sans miracles) in this match-up, which is great news.
Also Murderous Redcap.
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my ringleaders were hit many times by hymn and kolagan discard but i also think card advantage is the way to go, since they win with 2 for 1 cards
for this reason i also agree that redcap could be good since it add removals and consistency at the same time (could also kill a jace by himself)
4 Color Control and Grixis control are the most mid-range of the mid-range MUs. They don't have a fast clock but they apply pressure while disrupting our game and they can attack from many angles. They can also use DRS to win through a stalemated board state.
Here's how you beat them: Grind. This is not a match where you want to Matron for a Piledriver or Warchief to put on a clock. They will have the spot removal if you go all-in on one big attack. You want to play cards that draw yourself cards (Matron, Gempalm, Ringleader, MWM), or you want cards that stop them from playing their super-efficient game (Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void). You also want Tarfires to deal with early DRS and Delvers. If you can kill their early play it will be difficult for them to clock you, making your grinding game stronger. You will take over the board through sheer numbers in the long game. If they're attacking aggressively you can just let the damage through and keep building your board; just don't let your life get into Bolt range. Just don't chump too much in the early game. Having a board will allow you to Gempalm Delvers and DRS. If you can deal with the little guys with removal then you can chump an Angler for days and days.
I agree with others on Czech Pile matchup. This deck is the grindiest deck in today's metagame and it is difficult to beat competent player. Aside from Goblin Ringleader, Blood Moon and CotV, we don't have any haymakers for this matchup. Winstigator list is in big trouble here, because of low land count and Chrome Moxen. It is important to have enough lands, especially one or two Caverns to be able to push through Ringleaders. Value these hands higher. It is good idea to keep junk goblins in hand as a fodder to K.Command, Liliana or Hymn. We cannot rely on Aether Vial because of K.Command. We are on mercy of their Hymns. They have slow clock, but it doesn't matter much for them as they bury us in card advantage. Although DRS must die asap. Early relics are good to starve DRS. Be aware of Marsh Causalities! Keep Tuktuk inside.
Next time I want to try Ancient Tombs + Blood Moons main + 1-2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance SB + CotV SB.
I think it would be correct to trim several Vials in this matchup, especially on play.
jrw1985 - these decks don't play Delvers or Gurmags usually. Strixes, DRS, Snaps and Leovolds. As for permaments, Liliana + JAce are pretty common. Jitte comes out of sideboard.
the thing i'm not sure about is to fight them with moons and chalices. they have answers to both and every single card we miss with ringleader trigger could makes the difference. probably keeping the goblin count high and adding some removals is the way.
anyway i tried that path in one of my 2 looses. i succeed in landing a very early moon (or magus, don't remember) but 1 basic + 1 unchecked DRS were enough to drive my opp to the win
so probably i would like some Pyrokinesis (trying 3x1) and Redcap.
sharpshooter could be good too because they have many x/1s but it's hard for him to survive long enough to connect
I agree that Chalice is a bad card in this matchup. They aren't playing very many one drops and they have quite a few maindeck answers that are still relevant against the rest of your deck. Kolaghan's Command is their best spell, with extra copies in the form of Snapcaster. Abrupt Decay is very good, too. They won't board these out, so Chalice isn't going to do much before it gets removed.
Blood Moon, however, is very good. Unless recent lists are running multiple basics, it can just win games against them. They can Abrupt Decay it, but they have to keep mana up for it, or they can use Deathrite and a basic. It gets better the more Deathrite removal you have.
I updated a bunch of little things in Match-Ups. Anyone want to cross check me on that?
Stuff you agree on, disagree, simply think is wrong or missing?
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Also SEVEN HELLS, the jund commander deck is Dragons. The chances of our deck being in there is basically gone.
Edit:
Wait, perhaps that's the 5 color deck, due to using my eyes. There is still hope.
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Hey everyone!
So since I've moved back to the States (and away from consistent legacy action ) I figured I'd write a small report for my last weekly legacy event, which I got 2nd in (out of 15 or so I think). As a "send-off", my friends decided to pack their sideboards full of goblin hate, meaning I saw every black deck playing engineered plague and multiple hydroblasts in others! I felt pretty good about my list in general: I was fortunate to have some of the matchups I did, and my newfound love of Grenzo, Havoc Raiser was definitely confirmed by his performance here.
Anyway, here's the list:
4 Vial, lackey, matron, ringleader,
3 piledriver, warchief
2 mogg war marshal, gempalm, tarfire
1 prospector, sharpshooter, pyrokinesis, chieftain, siege gang, Tuktuk scrapper, Grenzo, warren weirding, earwig squad
23 lands
4 mountain
6 fetch
2 badlands
4 wasteland
3 port
4 cavern
Sideboard:
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk scrapper
1 magus of the moon
2 blood moon
1 chalice
1 warping wail
1 stingscourger
1 pithing needle
1 relic of progenitus
3 cabal therapy
1 pyroblast
1 surgical extraction
The reasoning for the magus over the 3rd moon is the presence of BUG decks with daze.
Matches:
Round 1: Eldrazi (win 2-0) (on play)
Game 1 was quite a close one. He had a couple of quick mimics and I kept a hand that was heavy on land denial (I believe my hand opener was vial plus port and x2 wasteland). I took a good amount of damage from the little creatures before getting on board and stabilizing. Grenzo made an appearance here, exiling a mimic and a displacer, which I was extremely tempted to cast to build my own Kiki Jiki, but thought it was better to keep porting him. I eventually got enough to stabilize with plenty of lands and an active vial, with my last card being matron. I get thought-knotted. D'oh! Luckily for me, I topdeck siege gang commander, which he scoops to pretty quickly since next turn I could kill him just by lobbing goblins over his head.
Game 2 was much less close. Pyrokinesis wiped out 2 mimics and a 2/2 endless one, then I blood moon'd, followed up by a magus.
Round 2: Food Chain (on draw, 0-2 loss).
Seemingly my nemesis, I can't seem to beat food chain with any consistency. Frustratingly, it's not that I'm getting combo'd with ballista; I usually just lose to 3/3 flier beat downs. I did get pretty unlucky this match, with a lot of mana issues. Game 1 we played fair for a bit, but I saw neither matron or ringleader all game. Game 2 was even worse, as my t1 vial gets needled (as I have a second in hand), and my cavern/port/wasteland hand leaves me with 2 tarfires, and a gempalm stuck in my hand. My opp also followed up the needle with a E plague, after decaying my lone piledriver (which was the only creature I drew all game). Blech. Advice on this matchup? I boarded in my hand disruption, generally planning on hitting 1 food chain then squading out the rest, at which point he has to actually cast his 4 mana 3/3s. Also: despite being a BUG DRS deck, food chain plays plenty of basics, so blood moon is almost entirely useless.
Round 3: 4C control/ Czech Pile (on play, 2-0 win)
Game 1 I have a pretty quick start, where a t1 lackey actually managed to connect before getting bolted after a ponder. The warchief he brought down got me some quick piledriver beats, and I ended the game before he really got going at all.
Game 2: an unanswered vial plus a blood moon put me in a good spot, though things were quite precarious for a bit. He had a DRS and a Chandra, Torch of Defiance that was slowly ticking up near ultimate, and my hand was a bit slow (ie no board presence). Fortunately, I found a pyro for the DRS, leaving him with nothing to cast other than bolts. I eventually got a ringleader out, and hit 4 good Goblins, letting me hit Chandra down to 5. Once the Chandra was off the table, my opp was effectively locked out.
Round 4: BUG midrange (featuring no delvers, but goyfs, snaps, strix, DRS, complimented by unearth and a reanimate in the board). On play, 2-0 win.
Game 1 was generally had me favored from the start, as my draws just seemed to line up well. Lackey got a lucky hit in, and my life total barely dropped during the game, though it was still a pretty grindy victory. I don't remember a ton of details about this one unfortunately.
Game 2: I'm really happy this was my last game in Glasgow: extremely long and technical, and I had the distinct joy of beating two engineered plagues resolving! I had a decent start (another vial + port opening, with a good curve follow up). My opponent dropped the 1st plague on turn 3, with a DRS in play. I got the DRS off the board and dropped a blood moon, while my opponent played a needle on my vial. Blood moon did not lock my opponent out however,
as he had fetched 3 basics. However, he seemed to find the moon annoying enough to play an EE on 3. Fortunately for me, I had Grenzo (1/1) and two other surviving creatures. I swung in with the team, 3 triggers: land, land... Abrupt decay!!! I was tempted to cast the decay on the needle, since I figured he would crack the EE for moon anyway, destroying plague with it. However, I decided not to risk it, since he could technically play around the moon a decent bit and didn't want to just die to a goyf. He cracked EE in response to the decay, leaving me with a strong boardstate. However, he brainstormed into a removal spell for Grenzo, and followed that up with a huge 6/7 goyf. After taking a few hits, I was in chumping mode (my life total was 3 at this point). Eventually I had to kill the goyf in a very painful way. Block with a 1/1, after damage tarfire, then pyro pitching another tarfire. Phew! My opponent has a sylvan library
at this point, but I'm starting to become confident in stabilizing (I think siege gang was just resolved). My opponent then draws deluge, wiping my board (though nicely taking out his DRS, strix, and snap with it). My opp now doesn't have the life to use library as a draw engine, just filtering, but he finds a second plague. At this point I'm pretty confident I'm dead, as if he ever draws a goyf I'm essentially dead. Ringleader finds a lone warchief. My opponent gets a string of value that almost wins: reanimate snapcaster, flashback reanimate for strix, draw and play DRS. Thankfully, I had been sandbagging a pyrokinesis, which I hardcast to wipe the board! He bricks for a turn, though my board is empty as well thanks to an earlier fatal push on ringleader. My draw is earwig! 7 lands in play, I cast warchief and earwig before combat, swinging for 5, ending the match. What a game!
Food chain won the event, but I was pretty happy with a final 3-1. I'll probably clean up the board a bit (I've been doing my online testing with a 3 thorn sideboard, which I've liked a lot). Grenzo's still been great for me,
I'm playing 2 right now.
General rule for him: he's best against goodstuff midrange/tempo decks, since the best hits are removal or strong standalone threats like goyf. He's medium against combo, mostly for his virtue as a 2/2, though certain combo decks are actually vulnerable to him (typically decks with few win conditions, since random exile can be relevant). He's actually best against storm (of the combo decks) because they pack so many discard spells, letting you possibly gain access to a duress or thoughtseize game 1. He's worst against highly synergistic decks like infect, where
Most of the time you'll hit a useless post-combat pump spell.
I'm considering going to 1 war marshal to add a sparksmith, but that's still undecided.
@Olaf, thanks for updating the matchup section! Couple points I'd add:
-I've found chalice to be great against turbo depths: on 1, it shuts off 2 very important cards for them; needle (for our wastelands) and crop rotation. Since they don't have gamble, they have to play the slow into the north to get dark depths out without crop rotation unless they naturally draw it. Earwig squad is also pretty great in this matchup, since exiling 3 depths and wasting 1 essentially means they can't win anymore, as most turbo depths lists don't play Loam (in my experience). I also think rating in "unfavorable" is a bit pessimistic, the matchup seems to me to be better than the sneak and show matchup. Therapy/thoughtseize can do work against them too.
-I've done some testing against bant blade lately, and it doesn't feel even to me. I definitely feel like I need to get lucky to win, since they are playing basically every good creature against us sans Goyf. Maybe I'm approaching the matchup wrong?
I think an interesting addition to the matchups section of the primer would be designation of who is typically the beatdown/control in the given matchup. I know that I frequently play too passively, which makes matchups where I need to be proactive like bug delver and Aggro Loam much harder. Obviously, the role of the player changes throughout the game, but I think it'd be helpful to see what the "standard" position for a matchup should be (largely for the purpose of evaluating opening hands). Thoughts, everyone?
As for Bant Stoneblade, I'll hit the match-up again and re-evaluate it. I had a friend who put it together before Top was banned, but I could easily see that being out of date now. My memories though had Waste, Port, and Pyrokinesis doing it for me.
As for Who's Beatdown: if you simply mean marking down "You are generally beatdown in this match." I could do something along those lines without too much time or effort.
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Another 5-0 list with MD Chalice! Discuss.
Creature (26)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Settler
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
Instant (3)
3 Pyrokinesis
Artifact (4)
4 Chalice of the Void
Land (23)
3 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
1 Pendelhaven
2 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
Other (4)
4 Aether Vial
Sideboard (15)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Earwig Squad
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Minister of Pain
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
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It's not his list, jrw is just posting it.
I've never really been a fan of Maindeck Chalice, and I don't think that will ever change. I feel like we could just play a better Chalice deck.
That aside, his list does take pretty good advantage of it. We've jumped on the bandwagon of just Pyrokinesis over Tarfire before. Interesting statement with the 3 Mogg War Marshals though, handling the fatties, and making Gempalm better. I wish I had a bit more time, and determine if it's better going into my upcoming event.
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Running 4 Chalice as a two drop really makes sense when you look at it as being better than Piledriver against combo because we would rather lock them out than race them, and it's better than Piledriver against midrange decks because it turns off 1/3 of their deck rather than eating one piece of spot removal.
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