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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #641
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  2. #642

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Went 4-1 in my league on MTGO.

    List

    I'm not used to write ups, but luckily MTGO archives my games.


    Match 1:
    Burning Reanimator

    G1: He gets out Grisselbrand and is about to get Iona out, before he can take a look at my hand I conceed to go to game 2.
    G2: I mull to 4 looking for some sort of interaction between the GY hate or a chalice. I keep a siege-gang, piledriver, warchief, chalice, and he gets out Grisselbrand T1 again and I concede.

    Loss (0-2)
    Record (0-1)
    Takeaways: I really think leyline of the void is the GY hate that I want to be running right now. It is the best gy hate to mull down to and often times you really have to in order to win the heavy gy strategy matchups. Also, the entire match took less than 8 minutes to complete.

    Match 2:
    Unexpected Miracles

    G1: Keep 7 with Tarfire, Tarfire, Mountain, Fetch, Cavern, Piledriver, Ringleader. After he plays portent I know he's on the new miracles deck, a lot of the people at my local shop are playing it right now. I know to space my threats and not overextend. The game goes very grindy with him casting a lot of cantrips for the first few turns while I port him down just hitting land drops until I can start putting down ringleaders. He wipes my board once then I get a sharpshooter and skirk combo online which lets me extend my board a bit more. He wipes it and I sac them all plus a tarfire for the kill.
    G2: Keep 7 with Cavern, Waste, Piledriver, Matron, Warchief, Siege-Gang, Vial. He starts off by cantriping while I drop my vial. I then waste and draw another vial. He is stuck on 2 lands for a couple turns while I deploy small threats and tick up my vials. Turn gets passed with me just having a piledriver on the board, I vial in warchief matron for another piledriver and he concedes.

    Win (2-0)
    Record(1-1)

    Takeaways: This matchup can be annoying but I think we have a better time vs it than old miracles so that probably means it's a pretty good matchup. My friend told me when we were playing that he knows he is at a disadvantage when my hardcasted gempalm was a threat.

    Match 3:
    Grixis Delver

    G1: I get some bad mulls and mull down to 5 keeping Tarfire, Vial, MWM, Warchief, Sharpshooter figuring that if I can scry a land I'll be set with the vial. Opponent fetches for an underground sea and Thoughtseizes. I concede before he can look at my hand to know what to bring in.
    G2: I wasn't sure which kind of thoughtseize deck he was but i did know that they all hate blood moon so I brought it in. I keep 7 with Skirk, Blood Moon, Warchief, Ringleader, Lackey, Tarfire, Mountain. He bolts my lackey T1. Next turn I draw a cavern and I mess up by not playing my skirk off of the cavern because he ends up forcing the skirk. I think to myself how dumb I am until i realize that he probably don't have a force for my blood moon now. If I rip a land he's done for. He plays a DRS and passes, I rip the tarfire and kill it and pass the turn back, he cantrips and passes, I draw the 3rd land and slam the blood moon. Opponent Concedes.
    G3: This game actually has some play to it. I keep 7 with Wasteland, Port, Tarfire, Matron, Blood Moon, Fetch, Matron. I end up dropping lands and so does he until T3 where he dazes my blood moon. Shoulda seen that one coming. He then plays a gurmag and has 2 cards left in hand after stifiling my wasteland. He plays a pyromancer that I have the tarfire for and passes the turn. I end up using matron to grab a MWM to do some blocking while I buy time. He doesn't seem to be drawing anything good as I am able to chump block for a few turns while building up my board. I end up hitting a really good ringleader hitting 4 goblins. I continue chump duty while ticking up a vial getting out a Thalia that ate a removal. He has me down to 4 with the gurmag angler, whipes my board except for the warchief I vial in at the end of his turn and plays a jitte that is unequiped. I end up vialing in a sharp shooter, playing a MWM and another warchief. I swing in leaving a guy back to block the gurmag and to ping him with sharpshooter to avoid the jitte counters. After one look at that, the Opponent concedes.

    Win (2-1)
    Record (2-1)

    Takeaways: I like not letting the opponent know what I'm doing when I go into game 2 if I can help it and when I have such bad luck with mulligans that it isn't even worth trying then I think it is a decent call. MWM doing some major blocking in G3, I really like having 2, I played with 3 for the longest time but I think 2 is the right number.

    Match 4:
    Mono Red Stompy

    G1: Keep 7 with Vial, Lackey Mountain, Ringleader, Tarfire, Port, Lackey. He turn 1 chalice on 1. Great. I draw a lackey. Great. he plays another ancient tomb and passes. I draw a wasteland and start porting him. He plays a blood moon. I draw another tarfire. That's 6 1 drops in my hand.... He plays a sin prodder. I manage to put most of those things into the graveyard since it revealed lands and chalices. I draw the 4th land and ringleader, Hit 4. Discard 3 lackeys down to 7 cards. Opponent plays ensnaring bridge and passes. I draw the 5th land to get siege gang out and it's just easy pickins from there.
    G2: Keep 7 with MWM, Mountain, Fetch, Gempalm, Warchief, Warchief, Lackey. Opponent plays chalice on one and passes. Then drops a blood moon on turn 2. I get out my MWM on my t2 and then pay for it on T3. Opponent is stuck on 2 lands. Opponent passes again without playing a land, I drop a warchief that gets hit in the face by a sudden shock. I play another one of them from my hand and swing for 4 the next turn. Opponent finds a 3rd land and plays Jaya Ballard, that gets killed by a gem palm, I play a pile driver and smash face.

    Takeaways: This in general is a good matchup provided you don't see trinisphere. I like wasteland and rishidan port a lot in this matchup since they already have clunky draws.

    Win (2-0)
    Record (3-1)

    Match 5:
    Burning Reanimator

    G1: Keep 7 with Cavern, Lackey, Lackey, Tarfire, Matron, Piledriver, Thalia. T1 Cavern Lackey Go. They do some faithless looting. T2 I play a vial and smack in hitting a matron down and grabbing a sting scourger. I draw a white source and play thalia and vial in my last lackey. Opponent is stuck on 1 mana with a vial in play and has to pay 1 for their lotus petal. I keep vial at 2 as I beat in with the team and opponent goes down.
    G2: I Keep a bad 6 of lackey, lackey, warchief, RiP, tarfire, Port hoping for the red or white source. I end up losing this one to an early chancellor and some removals on my lackies. Definitely would have been a different story if Leyline of the Void were my graveyard hate of choice.
    G3: Keep 7 with Mountain, Wasteland, Vial, Skirk, Thalia, Gempalm, Siege-Gang. T1 Mountain Vial go. Opponent plays Entomb EOT for my T2 as I get a MWM and a skirk out. Opponent puts Elesh Norn into play off of a reanimate going down to 13. I'm pretty much done. Then I top deck the sting scourger as my vial ticks up to 2. Opponent also missed his land drop on T2. I play the sting scourger to bounce his Elesh Norn and vial in thalia. Opponent conitnues to miss land drops having to pay for a lotus petal, then I get a Rishadan port and lock out the game from there.

    Win (2-1)
    Record(4-1)

    Overall I am very happy with getting a good result from going back to a R/W list after trying so many different brews. I really felt comfortable getting back to the roots of the deck from when I first started playing it. I'll probably be running the R/W list for a while and probably take it to GP Vegas next month. I'll also set up my streaming set up again to get some more Goblin leagues now that I have all the cards for both lists and all splashes.

  3. #643
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @Quackers: nice result! Great report too. I really enjoyed reading it. I agree with you regarding Leyline, but it's a meta call. Cage and Surgical are usually enough for me in my meta, but it looks like reanimator is much more popular online. RiP is too slow in that case. The only deck I ever really loved RiP against was RUG Delver since it hosed their goyfs and geese and was generally a strong mid game draw. But that deck just isn't around anymore.
    How's that maindeck Thalia treating you? I reached the point where I felt the md splash was a greater liability than benefit since I found myself too often with Thalia in hand and no white, or a plateau would get wasted and I'd get mana screwed on my gobbos. It didn't look like Thalia was useful any g1 you played, but maybe she just didn't turn up.


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  4. #644

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    @Quackers: nice result! Great report too. I really enjoyed reading it. I agree with you regarding Leyline, but it's a meta call. Cage and Surgical are usually enough for me in my meta, but it looks like reanimator is much more popular online. RiP is too slow in that case. The only deck I ever really loved RiP against was RUG Delver since it hosed their goyfs and geese and was generally a strong mid game draw. But that deck just isn't around anymore.
    How's that maindeck Thalia treating you? I reached the point where I felt the md splash was a greater liability than benefit since I found myself too often with Thalia in hand and no white, or a plateau would get wasted and I'd get mana screwed on my gobbos. It didn't look like Thalia was useful any g1 you played, but maybe she just didn't turn up.


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    Yeah, you are right, now that I think about it. Thalia was never super important on any G1. I do like her since she is a really strong 2 drop and I really wanted stronger 2 drops in the deck. I haven't ran into the wasteland problem too much since splashing, but I am used to splashing black most of the time. I just switched back to R/W recently. Now if RIP isn't as worth it in the sideboard, I'm not sure what other powerful sideboard cards that makes white worth something. Wear//Tear maybe? Often times I felt my opening hands were a lot stronger with the ability to get a vial port and Thalia though.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    Yeah, you are right, now that I think about it. Thalia was never super important on any G1. I do like her since she is a really strong 2 drop and I really wanted stronger 2 drops in the deck. I haven't ran into the wasteland problem too much since splashing, but I am used to splashing black most of the time. I just switched back to R/W recently. Now if RIP isn't as worth it in the sideboard, I'm not sure what other powerful sideboard cards that makes white worth something. Wear//Tear maybe? Often times I felt my opening hands were a lot stronger with the ability to get a vial port and Thalia though.
    Containment Priest is my extra biggest reason for splashing white.

    I'll have a report here soon-ish for this last weekends event (reminder to myself).

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  6. #646
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Hi everyone! I went 4-0 yesterday in our local weekly legacy tournament.

    This is the list I played.
    RB Goblins
    4 Aether Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    1 Skirk Prospector
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    3 Goblin Warchief
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Earwig Squad
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Lightning Crafter
    1 Stingscourger
    3 Tarfire
    2 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Warren Weirding
    1 Pyrokinesis

    1 Karakas
    1 Pendelhaven
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Badlands
    4 Snow-covered Mountain
    2 Arid Mesa
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard
    2 Chalice of the Void
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Blood Moon
    1 Pyrokinesis
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Siege-Gang Commander

    R1 UR Prowess 2-0
    Game one I wasteland my opponent's Volcanic Island, then when he fetches he searches up a basic Mountain for some reason. This leads to him having some trouble casting his spells. I think my maindeck Pyrokinesis also showed up. I win.
    Game two my opponent has a rather poor draw and ends up with a bunch of dead cards in hand. I answer the few threats he has and win from there.

    -1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    -1 Earwig Squad
    -1 Skirk Prospector
    -1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    -1 Karakas
    +2 Chalice of the Void
    +3 Cabal Therapy
    +1 Pyrokinesis

    R2 Grixis Delver 2-1 (Stifle Version)
    Game one I get close to stabilizing, but my opponent has a lethal burn spell, with an additional one to spare.
    Game two I have an almost perfect draw with Lackey + Pendelhaven and a Tarfire for his DRS. I put a Chieftain into play and get a fairly fast clock going. He has a Fire Covenant for my board, leaving me with a single token. but he's on six life and I have a Pendelhaven and a Blood Moon.
    Game three my opponent plays an early Delver. I have a Pyrokinesis but hold it for a few turns in case I need to answer another threat with it. I end up pulling the trigger at 10 life. Sometime later he has another Delver, but it doesn't flip for a few turns and I win the race.

    -1 Skirk Prospector
    -1 Earwig Squad
    -1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    -1 Lightning Crafter
    -1 Karakas

    +2 Chalice of the Void
    +2 Blood Moon
    +1 Pyrokinesis
    +1 Relic of Progenitus

    I'm not sure I recall my sideboarding in this match 100% correctly, but this should be somewhat accurate.

    R3 Grixis Control 2-1
    This was more of a Blue Black control deck splashing red for Kolaghan's Command.
    Game one he gets a True-Name Nemesis into play, but without much else going on the usual Goblins plan of outgrinding control decks works excellently.
    Game two he plays TNN and E. Plague. I have Matron, Warchief and Tuktuk Scrapper as the relevant cards in hand. I think I also have a Ringleader in play. Anyway, I choose to Matron for Lightning Crafter, but when my opponent plays a removal spell I get cautious and don't want to jam LC into a second removal spell. So I play the Scrapper from my hand, destroying one of his Needles. On his turn he finds Jitte and runs away with the game. Maybe I should have searched for something else, or maybe I should have just held the Scrapper. I'm not sure what the correct play(s) would have been here.
    Game three my opponent once again has TNN + E. Plague, this time accompanied by two DRSs. I Gempalm and Tarfire his shamans, then Matron finds Warren Weirding for his TNN. My hand is absolutely stacked at this point, and I win.

    -1 Skirk Prospector
    -1 Stingscourger
    -1 Pyrokinesis
    +1 Siege-Gang Commander
    +1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    +1 Goblin Sharpshooter

    R4 BUG Delver 2-0 (Stifle Version)
    Game one my opponent has a slow hand (slow enough that I'm not sure if he's even playing Delvers or if he's on a Delverless build).
    Game two I think I killed a Delver and a TNN. He had a bunch of Stifles but didn't get very good use of them.
    Last edited by Sandro95; 06-01-2017 at 10:19 AM.

  7. #647
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Sandro, coming in Hot with the Weirdings for TNN! Nice report, buddy. I've been waiting to see a report where Weirding really shined against TNN, and it looks like it did some heavy lifting for you here.

    Two questions: Why the MD Earwig still? The format seems to be very fair atm. Wouldn't it be better to run Kiki as your other 5-drop and therefor have the whole Kiki-Crafter combo accessible?

  8. #648
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Sandro, coming in Hot with the Weirdings for TNN! Nice report, buddy. I've been waiting to see a report where Weirding really shined against TNN, and it looks like it did some heavy lifting for you here.

    Two questions: Why the MD Earwig still? The format seems to be very fair atm. Wouldn't it be better to run Kiki as your other 5-drop and therefor have the whole Kiki-Crafter combo accessible?
    I don't consider EWS a 5-drop. Honestly I just haven't been unhappy with the one copy. It's good enough VS Storm that I want one in the seventy five and I'd rather have it maindeck than sideboard. It's also really good against various control decks, taking away their best cards and putting a 5/3 into play.

  9. #649

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandro95 View Post
    I don't consider EWS a 5-drop. Honestly I just haven't been unhappy with the one copy. It's good enough VS Storm that I want one in the seventy five and I'd rather have it maindeck than sideboard. It's also really good against various control decks, taking away their best cards and putting a 5/3 into play.
    Since you're on the black spash solidly, have you or anyone looked into Murderous Redcap? It can be removal upon casting but hasn't even seen consideration. Am I missing something? It is overcosted, yes but perhaps could be a solid silver bullet against delver, DRS, or stoneforge

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Potdindy View Post
    Since you're on the black spash solidly, have you or anyone looked into Murderous Redcap? It can be removal upon casting but hasn't even seen consideration. Am I missing something? It is overcosted, yes but perhaps could be a solid silver bullet against delver, DRS, or stoneforge
    Page 16.

    I went over a bit of it.

    If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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  11. #651

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Is anyone around here still playing with the Winstigator variant? Are there any lists floating around? How does it compare to the Rishadan Port versions?

  12. #652

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Played a small tourney last weekend, first appearance with Goblins.

    The list:
    4x Wooded Foothills
    2x Bloodstained Mire
    3x Mountain
    2x Plateau
    1x Taiga
    4x Wasteland
    4x Rishadan Port
    3x Cavern of Souls

    4x Aether Vial
    4x Goblin Lackey
    3x Tarfire
    1x Skirk Prospector
    3x Goblin Piledriver
    2x Mogg War Marshall
    1x Tin Street Hooligan
    1x Stingscourger
    1x Sparksmith
    4x Goblin Matron
    3x Goblin Warchief
    3x Gempalm Incinerator
    4x Goblin Ringleader
    1x Krenko, Mob Boss
    1x Siege-Gang Commander
    1x Pyrokinesis

    SB:
    3x Relic of Progenitus
    3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2x Containment Priest
    1x Tin Street Hooligan
    3x Mindbreak Trap
    3x Pyrokinesis

    Notes: The guy who was gong to lend me a Sharpshooter didn't go so I had to replace it with a MD kineses (yeah right, great "replacement"), this cost me a game vs Reanimator where I could have killed my opp shooting his face off Prospector and forcing a suicide off reanimate, this line not being there snowballed into a game loss into a match loss (match win potentially making me dodge Reanimator on T8, or at least putting on the play vs it). I don't own a 4th Warchief and I couldn't find my Chieftain, so Sparksmith entered as a test slot (it didn't really perform in any way, not at any time I wish I could tutor for one, have one in hand).

    Results:
    R1: 2-1 vs lands. Highlight: G1 I mulled to 5 and got T2 Krenko. Lost it anyway ;).
    R2: 2-0 vs MUD Stax. Highlight: G2 I had needles and revokers in vial, prospector, wasteland and krenko. Won with a siege-gang-bang commander and a million tokens + tarfire, having previously destroyed a Needle on Vial which allowed me to tutor for the win.
    R3: 0-2 vs Br Reanimator. Highlight: G2 he T1 griselbrand + tyrant + elesh norn. Keepin' it fair.
    R4: 1-2 vs Br Reanimator. Highlight: it's my own deck that I lent out. :)
    R5: 2-0 vs Deathblade. Highlight: G2 I got my only land wasted. Win through a TNN + 2 Hierarchs with 3 vials and sick wombo combo chaining Matrons into warchief into multiple ringleaders into prospector and kill off siege gang #FeelsGood
    T8: 0-2 vs Br Reanimator. Highlight: I G2 mindbreak trap my opp reanimate. T2 he reanimates gbrand and elesh norn. Bounce elesh. Still lose. Need 2nd Scourger badly in this #ReaniMeta...

    Highlight of the day: right after I got knocked out, the store got 1 Sharpshooter in stock :)

    Going forward:
    1) I think I didn't really like the SB plan, although it would be fair to at least give it another go as is. I mean, who am I to argue vs Jim Davis, right?
    2) Thinking of adding a 2nd Stingscourger and a 3rd Hooligan (not sure which one I'd play 2of main, probs Stingscourger). Cutting down 1 Piledriver from the main. SB slots go on below.
    3) Will replace Sparksmith with 4th Chieftain, smith didn't really do anything in any match.
    4) If I were to toy with the board I think I'd go for something like: 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Faerie Macabre, 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Chaclice of the Void, 1/2 Tin Street Hooligan and 0/1 Stingscourger (2+0 or 1+1, depending on what I put as 2-of in the MB.). This would free up the need for white, making me play 2x Taiga and a 4th basic Mountain.

    Would appreciate some feedback on these 4 points.

    Thanks!
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  13. #653
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by tarmogoat View Post
    Going forward:
    1) I think I didn't really like the SB plan, although it would be fair to at least give it another go as is. I mean, who am I to argue vs Jim Davis, right?
    2) Thinking of adding a 2nd Stingscourger and a 3rd Hooligan (not sure which one I'd play 2of main, probs Stingscourger). Cutting down 1 Piledriver from the main. SB slots go on below.
    3) Will replace Sparksmith with 4th Chieftain, smith didn't really do anything in any match.
    4) If I were to toy with the board I think I'd go for something like: 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Faerie Macabre, 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Chaclice of the Void, 1/2 Tin Street Hooligan and 0/1 Stingscourger (2+0 or 1+1, depending on what I put as 2-of in the MB.). This would free up the need for white, making me play 2x Taiga and a 4th basic Mountain.

    Would appreciate some feedback on these 4 points.
    Nice Report! No shame in that list either. To address some points...
    1) You took a sideboard for an SGC Open into a meta of 50% Br Reanimator. Pack a playset of Leyline of the Void next time in the Side.
    2) I'm a huge fan of 2 MD Stingscourger. He's generally very good in a meta without much Storm combo.
    3) Sparksmith has been played a lot recently. He's super middle of the road. He generally eats removal before he can start removing creatures himself.
    4) That's decent sideboard plan

  14. #654

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by tarmogoat View Post
    Played a small tourney last weekend, first appearance with Goblins.

    SB:
    3x Relic of Progenitus
    3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2x Containment Priest
    1x Tin Street Hooligan
    3x Mindbreak Trap
    3x Pyrokinesis
    How do you like containment priest. I've been trying it out and it is so annoying to not get lackey triggers or use vials.

  15. #655

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Nice Report! No shame in that list either. To address some points...
    1) You took a sideboard for an SGC Open into a meta of 50% Br Reanimator. Pack a playset of Leyline of the Void next time in the Side.
    2) I'm a huge fan of 2 MD Stingscourger. He's generally very good in a meta without much Storm combo.
    3) Sparksmith has been played a lot recently. He's super middle of the road. He generally eats removal before he can start removing creatures himself.
    4) That's decent sideboard plan
    1) Agree, you always have to adjust your deck (main and 60) for the metagame you expect, it makes no sense to think "well X player recommends Y deck for Z tournament, I guess that's the best choice for this different event at this different time and different place".

    2) I hate Stingscourger, both modes on the card are basically unplayable:
    - 2 mana sorcery speed unsummon
    - 6 mana manowar (Neither one can even target your own creatures which would be a significant boost for this deck)
    It's just like I hate Tuktuk Scrapper: 4 mana shatter is not a playable card either. However at the moment I recommend playing exactly 1 copy of each of these (or 1 Tin Street if you're splashing green) because the opportunity cost of having them in your deck (while not negligible) is not very high, and I find myself needing to search for them enough in maindeck situations that your overall winrate is higher by including them.
    I wouldn't advocate playing more copies of bad cards in your sideboard just to increase your chances of hitting them off Ringleader. If you want to board in more copies of Stingscourger my question is: against what? It only makes sense against Reanimator and SNT and _maybe_ lands, it's only mediocre against all of these. If it's for Reanimator then wouldn't you rather have the 4th Surgical, if it's for SNT then you have other options like Confusion in the Ranks or Ashen Rider.
    It's the same situation for artifact hate, if you think you want more artifact hate I would rather have 1 Tin Street and 1 Ancient Grudge (green) or 1 Scrapper 1 Kolaghans Command (black) rather than 2 Tin Street or 2 Scrapper.

    3) Unlike Stingscourger and Scrapper Sparksmith has the potential to be a uniquely powerful card:
    1R
    1/1
    Tap: Deal 2 damage to target creature
    There is no other card in legacy which compares to this, Grim Lavamancer is the closest thing (is less mana and can target players but is capped at 2 damage and costs mana and cards in graveyard to activate).
    Imagine you have Warchief in play and you want to Matron for Tarfire to kill something: With Sparksmith now you have an option that costs the same amount of mana (only 1!), is uncounterable off Cavern, and leaves the pinger in play to threaten more removal on later turns.
    "Dies before it can kill anything" is an okay argument but the deck has ways to give it haste and people have obviously had success in the past with maindeck Sharpshooter and Lightning Crafter which suffer from the same 'problem'. I get that it didn't do anything in any match in your event but you only played against 1 opponent with 'normal' creatures.

    Basically I am saying that both of these positions don't make sense:
    1) "This list I netdecked from a completely different event/time/region must be unilaterally ideal and I'm not going to change it"
    2) "All my opponents are playing reanimator/lands I guess sparkmith sucks and stingscourger is amazing"
    Which seems contradictory, but the idea is "Yes change your list for different events but don't go overboard cutting your narrow good cards for narrow bad ones".

    It's possible that some metagames are so creature-less that the optimal Goblins list wouldn't have Sparksmith or Gempalm or Tarfire or Sharpshooter etc etc but that is not a metagame where I would want to play Goblins in the first place (unless these are all like landstill or something and not combo).

  16. #656
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Hi All,

    I've been experimenting with Instigator lists for the past two months and would like to share my most recent brew: Punishing Chalice Goblins.

    Creature (25)
    4x Goblin Lackey
    1x Goblin Chirurgeon
    3x Warren Instigator
    3x Goblin Warchief
    1x Goblin Chieftain
    4x Goblin Matron
    1x Goblin Ringleader

    1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1x Krenko, Mob Boss
    1x Lightning Crafter
    1x Siege-Gang Commander

    1x Gempalm Incinerator
    1x Goblin Sharpshooter
    1x Stingscourger
    1x Tuktuk Scrapper

    Other (12)
    4x Aether Vial
    4x Chalice of the Void
    4x Punishing Fire

    Land (23)
    6x Red Fetchland
    4x Mountain
    1x Plateau
    4x Cavern of Souls
    4x Grove of the Burnwillows
    2x Karakas
    2x Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2x Ethersworn Canonist
    2x Thorn of Amethyst
    2x Ensnaring Bridge
    2x Pyrokinesis
    1x Tuktuk Scrapper
    2x Tormod's Crypt
    1x Faerie Macabre
    1x Grafdigger's Cage


    The Pros
    • Running Chalice of the Void in the main has had two additional benefits beyond the "You now have 25 dead draws in your deck". First, it frees up a lot of slots in the sideboard. The second point is below.
    • We can keep goblins alive! I had come to accept it as given that, beyond moves like sequencing to have a hastelord in play and get that first Krenko activation, goblins just die to removal spells and no goblin is safe. Now between Chalices, and the tutorable Goblin Chirurgeon and Lightning Crafter, key goblins survive much longer. Chirurgeon's ability to protect Kiki-Jiki+Matron wins games, and Kiki-Jiki's token friends love to sacrifice themselves for the good of the clan. Vial@4 and Lightning Crafter in hand feels dirty, like D&T vialing in Flickerwisp.
    • Punishing Fire clears the way for Instigator and Lackey. Importantly, this doesn't need to be on turn 2-3, though it frequently is. Other games stall out early simply because you've found both Grove and Fire and threaten to Punish every creature your opponent plays. You gain time to build up your manabase or let Vial tick up and win.
    • Running 1-2x Karakas provides more maindeck weapons against Reanimator, Marit Lage, and Sneak and Show. It also protects our Krenko & Kiki-Jiki and provides additional white mana for our sideboard plan.


    The Cons
    • The sad trade-off this build makes by adding powerful non-Goblins is that our beloved Ringleader becomes far less reliable. There are only 25 goblins in the deck, hence only running 1-2 copies of Ringleader. It really is noticeably weaker here. The last undecided maindeck slot in my mind is the second Ringleader vs the 3rd Instigator. Whereas other builds often fetch Ringleaders off of Matron, here it is frequently correct to go a different route, like one of the finisher goblins if you have a way to protect it.
    • The other issue is that we completely sacrifice the mana denial package to have more red mana sources. I've learned the hard way over time that I never want to Wasteland except when absolutely necessary. I attempted an extra-greedy mana denial version of this with Rishadan Port and it lasted exactly one day: I found myself repeatedly with dead cards in hand for want of a mountain. In the current build, the second Karakas could become a mountain, an additional fetchland, or Taiga for Tin Street Hooligan.



    The build is still in the early stages. I'm 10-4 with it so far and having fun most of the time.
    Losses: Burn x2, Reanimator, Grixis Delver
    Wins: Reanimator x2, Elves x2, Unexpected Miracles x2, ANT, Grixis Delver, Grixis Control, An unknown homebrew

    I'm not sure what to do about the Sneak and Show matchup since an esteemed member of our group bought out all of the Monkey Cages

  17. #657
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @Sockosensei:

    That is a low, low goblin count. Ringleader is going to whiff 11% of the time with those numbers.

    Aren't you just trading grinding with goblins for grinding with PFire?

    P-Fire combo is awesome but we have no way to tutor for the Grove or the P-Fire. Loam Decks can dredge their way into both. They also run Crop Rotations and KotR to fetch the Grove. We just can't set it up as well, making PFire a really bad Tarfire more often than not. If you replace your PFires with goblins your chances of whiffing on Ringleader go down to 7%. Meanwhile, your chances of Ringleading into 3+ goblins goes from 18% to 27%! I think that we already have Shock options that play more elegantly into our gameplan that make PFire unnecessary, so I would drop the PFire combo from your list.

    I dig the 4 Chalice. It does such a good job grinding out the Delver and combo decks with very little downside for us. And the fact that is serves as protection for your Kikis and Krenkos is very useful. In an ideal world we would still have a Goblin shaped piece of combo-hate but that's just too much to hope for.

  18. #658
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Thanks for the feedback, jrw1985.
    This is one in a long series of experiments I've been doing with Instigator Goblins.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I dig the 4 Chalice. It does such a good job grinding out the Delver and combo decks with very little downside for us. And the fact that is serves as protection for your Kikis and Krenkos is very useful.
    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I think that we already have Shock options that play more elegantly into our gameplan that make PFire unnecessary, so I would drop the PFire combo from your list.

    1) We're a dog to combo in game 1, and a coin flip in games 2 & 3.
    Question: How can we improve the combo matchups without making the fair matchups worse?
    Maindeck discard: Noticeably improved the combo matchups, but I found that it weakened the deck in too many other ways. Probably a net-negative, unless your meta is all combo, at which point...
    Maindeck Thalia: I've only tried this in the classic build. I know it has had a mixed reception because of mana-base and goblin count issues.
    Ignore g1 and hope to overload them in games 2 & 3: Our traditional approach :-)
    Maindeck Chalice of the Void: The card is incredibly powerful in most matchups. We get to pack a higher density of combo hate post-board. We gain a chance to steal game 1. Unlike the discard plan, we can play it off of early basic Mountains. The trade-offs are significant: worse Ringleaders, less early pressure on the board, and Tarfire becoming unplayable.

    2) An Instigator hit with Matron or Siege-Gang in hand has been a win for me a great percentage of the time in fair matchups. The same is true with Matron into Kiki-Jiki. Equally important is that it doesn't necessarily need to happen on turn 3-4.
    Question: If playing Chalice, how should we adjust the removal suite?
    Before adding Chalice, I was happy with the combination of Tarfire, Pyrokinesis, Gempalm, and Pendelhaven. Occasionally Warren Weirding. With Chalice, we need to reconfigure. Manabase adjustments mean that Pendelhaven may become tougher to fit. I don't want to run Tarfire with Chalice. What other Shock/removal options would be worth considering?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    P-Fire combo is awesome but we have no way to tutor for the Grove or the P-Fire. Loam Decks can dredge their way into both. They also run Crop Rotations and KotR to fetch the Grove. We just can't set it up as well, making PFire a really bad Tarfire more often than not.
    It's true that we're not guaranteed to assemble the combo the way a Loam deck would. We still usually trade 1-for-1 with Punishing Fire while threatening to return it for value. When it happens, it's beautiful. The games go long enough that you'll frequently find a Grove to go with it.

    It also means that you have a lot of potentially strong openings:
    T1 Vial, T2 Chalice
    Grove-Fire
    T1 Lackey, T2 Chalice
    T1 Lackey, T2 removal

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    That is a low, low goblin count. Ringleader is going to whiff 11% of the time with those numbers.
    ....
    If you replace your PFires with goblins your chances of whiffing on Ringleader go down to 7%. Meanwhile, your chances of Ringleading into 3+ goblins goes from 18% to 27%!
    No argument here. Ringleader is terrible in this build. If we're spending 4 slots on Chalice then we need to accept that Ringleader will be worse. I've chosen to move away from it as an experiment and focus on keeping the board clear with repeatable removal, while at the same time protecting our key goblins with Chalice, Chirurgeon, and Crafter-Vial. It's possible that a different removal suite could work, but we can't expect Ringleader to function at classic-list levels while running Chalice.
    Last edited by Sockosensei; 06-10-2017 at 07:28 AM.

  19. #659

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    1) Agree, you always have to adjust your deck (main and 60) for the metagame you expect, it makes no sense to think "well X player recommends Y deck for Z tournament, I guess that's the best choice for this different event at this different time and different place".

    2) I hate Stingscourger, both modes on the card are basically unplayable:
    - 2 mana sorcery speed unsummon
    - 6 mana manowar (Neither one can even target your own creatures which would be a significant boost for this deck)
    It's just like I hate Tuktuk Scrapper: 4 mana shatter is not a playable card either. However at the moment I recommend playing exactly 1 copy of each of these (or 1 Tin Street if you're splashing green) because the opportunity cost of having them in your deck (while not negligible) is not very high, and I find myself needing to search for them enough in maindeck situations that your overall winrate is higher by including them.
    I wouldn't advocate playing more copies of bad cards in your sideboard just to increase your chances of hitting them off Ringleader. If you want to board in more copies of Stingscourger my question is: against what? It only makes sense against Reanimator and SNT and _maybe_ lands, it's only mediocre against all of these. If it's for Reanimator then wouldn't you rather have the 4th Surgical, if it's for SNT then you have other options like Confusion in the Ranks or Ashen Rider.
    It's the same situation for artifact hate, if you think you want more artifact hate I would rather have 1 Tin Street and 1 Ancient Grudge (green) or 1 Scrapper 1 Kolaghans Command (black) rather than 2 Tin Street or 2 Scrapper.

    3) Unlike Stingscourger and Scrapper Sparksmith has the potential to be a uniquely powerful card:
    1R
    1/1
    Tap: Deal 2 damage to target creature
    There is no other card in legacy which compares to this, Grim Lavamancer is the closest thing (is less mana and can target players but is capped at 2 damage and costs mana and cards in graveyard to activate).
    Imagine you have Warchief in play and you want to Matron for Tarfire to kill something: With Sparksmith now you have an option that costs the same amount of mana (only 1!), is uncounterable off Cavern, and leaves the pinger in play to threaten more removal on later turns.
    "Dies before it can kill anything" is an okay argument but the deck has ways to give it haste and people have obviously had success in the past with maindeck Sharpshooter and Lightning Crafter which suffer from the same 'problem'. I get that it didn't do anything in any match in your event but you only played against 1 opponent with 'normal' creatures.

    Basically I am saying that both of these positions don't make sense:
    1) "This list I netdecked from a completely different event/time/region must be unilaterally ideal and I'm not going to change it"
    2) "All my opponents are playing reanimator/lands I guess sparkmith sucks and stingscourger is amazing"
    Which seems contradictory, but the idea is "Yes change your list for different events but don't go overboard cutting your narrow good cards for narrow bad ones".

    It's possible that some metagames are so creature-less that the optimal Goblins list wouldn't have Sparksmith or Gempalm or Tarfire or Sharpshooter etc etc but that is not a metagame where I would want to play Goblins in the first place (unless these are all like landstill or something and not combo).
    I get what you mean, but if during the day I did really want to draw a second copy of Stingscourger and a third Hooligan, and knowing what the field looks like and the players that won't change decks, I know I will feel the same way in the future. I understand that playing BR reanimator 3 times in the same day in a 5 round event just won't happen every time, but then the rest of the field is a fair meta, so the slots from Storm seem better positioned to beat Reanimator or MUD/Big Red artifact hate (be 3ball, Chalice, Bridge, Needles, etc.).
    If you want to have Sparksmith dealing 2 damage every time, you can't progress your board. Yes, it's nice to have a creature that kills an Angler/Reality Smasher/TKS, but then taking 4/5 against a delver or Eldrazi deck doesn't seem great, and also feels like a win more case: you need to have a developed board to deal such amount to the creature, at that point you might as well be bashing face with a Piledriver and force your opp to bad blocks or even fill the baord with tokens and kill off Siege-Gang Commander or combo with Prospector + Sharpshooter (if the the draws allow to, of course). I don't know, Sparksmith is a card that I never felt like I would need during the day (makes sense I suppose, playing against a 2 creatureless decks and 2 Reanimators), but then knowing the field it's just a card that I know I won't be wishing for.
    Regarding the list, I think it's necessary to use a successful list to begin with, then start adjusting from there. You might be against netdecking, but that's just silly. Using lists that are successful is better than trying to start from scratch with an already established deck that you're not familiar with (my case).
    "Ach! Hans, run! It's the Lhurgoat!"

  20. #660
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Does a Duel Deck contain new cards? Because if they do, well... I'm hoping for something sweet
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