Grenzo is indeed nice. And if you do decide to play him, then you really need to reliably reach RR by turn 2.Originally Posted by cooljets
People usually make the mistake of associating gator lists with no-port list. You do want about 17 R sources, but that doesn't mean you can't run ports. As of now what could be done would be adding a 23rd land, and cutting pendelheaven. You fit 2 ports without losing R. But no, I don't think those are good changes because of how the meta is right now.
Am curious to know if you'd consider cutting Settler as well. Doesn't seem like he pulled much weight, and though the interaction with gator and Kiki is great, don't think he is really needed. Thoughts?
My plan against P.Fire is just 3 Blood Moon and maybe 1 surgical as well. That should be enough paired with wastes and tight play. CotV is also a good option. I guess it just didn't work out of variance. Happens...
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Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I'm not really interested in playing Port (or cutting Pendelhaven, for that matter). If I were to add any non-red mana sources to the deck it would be to squeeze a 2nd Pendelhaven in, if anything. But right now I like the mana base the way it is.
Settlers is kind of a pet card, but I'm keeping her for now. Being able to mana screw opponents is a common path to victory and she supplements the Wasteland/Blood Moon strategy well.
Going forward I think I'm just going to replace Piledriver with Grenzo and see how that goes.
i was looking over your list and comparing with the one i played a few months back. the main difference is that you're running 1 fewer land than i had in my list.
-1 sylvan -1 pendelhaven -1 krenko +1 tarfire, +1 sharpshooter + 1 grenzo.
i hope grenzo works out, because i like the idea of casting blue spells in a goblin deck. if it doesn't i'd highly recommend running the 2nd pendelhaven. did you find yourself getting stuck on lands vs the wasteland decks? i feel like even when i ran 20 lands + 3 mox i was getting stuck in quite a few matches.
-rob
I was actually on 20 lands a few weeks ago, but I noticed some people were on 19 and decided to give it a try, haven't really regretted it yet! ::knocks on wood::
Tourney Report! Made Top-4 of a 36 player event yesterday, 6 rounds of Swiss.
List
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Tarfire
3 Gempalm
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Cheiftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk
1 Krenko
1 Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
1 Piledriver
4 Wasteland
3 Port
3 Cavern of Sould
1 Chrome Mox
13 Mountain
Side
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigge's Cage
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
60 cards, 24 mana, 13 regular ass mountains. I wanted a strong manabase and it really delivered today. Having basic lands is such and incredible boon for this deck. The list is littered with 1-of cards because I love running a toolbox build, and that allowed me to include the Kiki-Crafter-Prospector/Chirgureon combo. Running only 2 haste lords was a bit of an experiment and I really didn't miss them all that much. The Jittes in the sideboard were a fun add.
R1 - DnT
Before the match my opponent asks me if it's a rematch of the last time we played. He was on a combo deck and I was on Goblins (of course). The fact that he's trying to get me to verify what deck I'm on before the round even begins tells me that he is no longer on combo. I'm on the draw and have to mull to 6 and it's a hand I would keep against a fair deck OR combo, so we're off to the races anyway.
I don't see any real equipment from my opponent in either game and take both down without too much trouble. Playing 4 Tarfires main allows me to burn out my opponent as he's trying to run the corner G2.
2-0
R2 - Miracles
G1 I'm on the play and mull to 5. My 5 is 4 lands and a Chrome Mox. Rock and roll. Fortunately for me my opponent is on Miracles so he doesn't do much the first 3 turns, giving me the time to lucksack my way into a Ringleader off the top of my deck. Ringleader draws 3 goblins. A second ringleader draws me 4 soon thereafter.
G2 I resolved Chalice @ 1
2-0
R3 - Grixis Delver
G1 I was on the play. If I recall, my opponent went Volcanic, Ponder, Waste and didn't have much to mount for offense. He did have spot removal for a Lackey but I built a board and hit him for 9, then he scooped.
G2 I kept a super loose 7 with too many lands and no card-advantage goblins. It didn't get there, but being up one game it seemed worth it to keep that hand rather than risk having a much worse one on a mull. Stil, this hand ought to have been mulled. We still need to keep hands that actually do things.
G3 On the play again I resolve a T1 Lackey. Opponent has a Ponder T1. T2 I cast a Chalice @ 1. It resolves. Then I connect with lackey and put a second Lackey into play. I had the option of putting in a Ringleader instead, but since he didn't have removal for the first Lackey I figured he'll have a very difficult time dealing with two of them, plus he needs to get around the Chalice. I also didn't have any more lands in hand so Lackey #2 seemed like a great mana source. T2 opponent hits my Chalice with Ancient Grudge. It's all good though because he's tapped out and on T3 I waste him down to 1 land and i cheat in a ton of goblins off Lackey. He scoops.
3-0
R4 - DnT
G1 We trade back and forth but eventually he gets a SoFI on a Thalia and I scoop it up for G2.
G2 I get an active Jitte and then grind out a win. Jitte is not as good against DnT as I had hoped because of their First strikers and Pro Red from Mom. Regardless, we got there.
G3 I lost in Turn 5 of extra turns. To a Gideon with a SoFI equipped. Boooo. I'm beginning to think my sideboard just needs to be 15 tuktuk scrappers.
3-1
R5 - Miracles
G1 and Done - We grind and grind and grind and grind. It was a crazy game and my opponent this round did an incredible job keeping my board in check. However, he couldn't find a way to pull ahead himself. He cast 6 Swords to Plowshares and all his Terminusesesessss this game. I played 6 or 7 Ringleaders. I got a Lightning Craft in play championing a Lackey, then I played a Kiki Jiki. My opponent ticked his Jace up to 13 and cast a Terminus on my upkeep. I used Kiki to copy the Crafter, championing a Matron with the token and burning Jace back to 10. Terminus resolved and I got a Lackey and Matron in play and searched up Kik Jiki again. My opponent had about 15 cards left in his deck at this point. He picks up his deck and scoops, showing my that he has nothing left in his deck except counterspells. With only 10 minutes left on the clock he concedes the match. I thought I was going to lose this game a couple of times but it turned out all of my opponent's resources went to keeping me at bay. Great game, super grindy.
4-1
R6 draw 4-1-1
Top 8 - Czech Pile
G1 I built a ton of a board and then assembled the combo FTW. Chirgureon was actually really strong here becuase it saved creatures from Fatal Push and Kholghans Command and protected the combo pieces as I went infinite.
G2 was just a grind. I ate some TNN hits, but without a Jitte or anything to go with TNN that card is neither offensive or defensive enough to beat us. At One point a K-Command targets a Val @ 4 and a Tuktuk. I Vial in a Lightning Crafter in response to save the Tuktuk. #Value. Czech Pile doesn't have much for counterspells so its' actually pretty easy to just jam you gobbos for the win.
5-1-1
Top 4 split. Great day.
I feel like Chirurgeon is better than Prospector and they overlap too much in function to play both, any thoughts on this?
I like your list and have considered playing something similar but with fewer Prospector/MWM/Gempalm/Tarfire and more Warchiefs. I guess you are fully committed to grinding rather than attacking but having so few haste enablers for Krenko/Crafter seems a bit sketchy to me.
Last edited by kombatkiwi; 06-26-2017 at 07:59 AM.
In LSV's latest legacy vid that got released today, he plays a match against gobbos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnKNEg-HcaQ&t=59m15s
Goblins/the opponent looks thoroughly outclassed here by the grixis pyromancer deck/Hall of Famer LSV
This game sounds both incredible and frustrating. I'm glad you came out on the winning side.
These games sum up a lot of my experiences with Chirurgeon and Crafter. The cards pull real weight in the non-combo matchups, especially Chirurgeon. I'd like to get feedback from others who are trying them in various builds.
Yeah man!
I found that the Kiki-Crafter combo works best when you have two sac outlets because that lets you draw the sac outlet naturally and you can Matron for the Kiki and Crafter. Having Skirk and Chirgureon gives you the two outlets while giving you a little more flexibility in play. I also found that Chirgureon's regenerate ability is pretty good against a format filled with Bolt, Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay.
Outclassed by the color blue is more like it. LSV is a great player, don't get me wrong, but a slice of Bologna could've won that game. Without the filtering of blue with their 16 cantrips lackey would've connected and who knows what happens then.
^
I didn't bother watching game 2 after watching the fisting that was game one. A potato could have piloted that game though, LSV's involvement was the bare minimum.
I tried a few games using a similar configuration with a 1-1 split of lords and I actually think it's a good decision, 3 mana lords aren't good enough to consistently make a big difference in a race against non-interactive matchups and they are a clunky liability against e.g. Delver, DNT, Infect etc compared to playing more removal spells.
I did think that having only 2 lords makes the 1-of Piledriver much worse (because it's much less likely that you will be able to Matron for it and then attack with it immediately) and playing exactly 1 Warchief feels really weird. I can see situations where you search for Chieftain for combat sizing reasons (which I have done in the past) but I don't think there are situations where searching for the 1 Warchief makes sense (if you need the bump in mana you have Prospector, if you need the haste there is Chieftain). It's obviously not a bad card to just draw by itself but then like I say, if that's the justification it feels odd to be playing only 1 copy. It can't be too bad but it does feel like it might be slightly suboptimal.
I totally agree about the Lords. They have become less and less impactful over time. I used to run 7 back in the day because they allowed Goblins to overwhelm other fair decks so easily, but now the format is so much grindier that we cannot afford to play cards that don't net us CA in some form.
I ran a 1-1 split because there are situations where one will be better than the other, so why not play both? I'm never Matroning for a haste lord, btw, unless I'm already ahead.
Tourney Report! Won a 12 player event yesterday, 5 rounds of Swiss, cut to top 4.
List-
Exact same maindeck that I played to a top-4 split last weekend. The only change was the sideboard. Equipment are everywhere and I've been losing an awful lot to Sword of Fire and Ice, so I cut two Umezawa's Jitte from my side (too cute) and just jammed 2 Tuktuk in the sideboard for a total of 3 in the 75.
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Tarfire
3 Gempalm
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Cheiftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko
1 Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
1 Piledriver
4 Wasteland
3 Port
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Chrome Mox
13 Mountain
Side
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigge's Cage
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
R1 - Eldrazi
G1 My opponent plays only an Eye of Ugin and a Yawgmoth which he uses to cast a 2/2 Endless One T1 and a Jitte T2. I manage to keep the Jitte from getting counters via Sparksmith and Chirurgeon, and mana screw leaves my opponent too far behind T4. Final swing is 11+ for lethal. I love this deck.
G2 I keep a hand with a T2 Blood moon. I almost stabilize, but was just a bit too slow on the draw, and Eldrazi that were already in play ate me.
G3 was super close. A Thought Knot Seer and Reality Smasher beat me down, but then Sharpshooter comes to the party and lets me clear his board with the help of Chirurgeon. Many X/2s were sharply shot this game. I'm finally able to triple-block the Smasher to kill it with Sharpshooter untaps. This happens then he attacked me with the Smasher which was equipped with a Jitte, no counters yet. Fun Fact: Because my opponent was the active player his triggers go on the stack first, mine second, so mine resolve first. This means when combat damage was dealt 3 creatures died and a Jitte Counters trigger went on the stack, then My 3 Sharpshooter untap triggers went on the stack, resolving first, thereby preventing my opponent from using the Jitte Counters to either protect his Smasher or to kill my SHarpshooter. Sharpshooter did the last 2 damage to the Smasher and one to the dome, then Jitte got its counters and my opponent promptly killed Sharpshooter. I played a Tuktuk soon thereafter to clear his board. A hasty Krenko sealed the deal.
1-0
R2 - Tezzeret Thopters UB
G1 I was on the play and led with a Lackey, but Tezzerato just does not have an answer for a T1 Lackey on the play. I was able to dump my hand and cast Matron T3 into cheating in Kiki-Jiki off of Lackey. Then I just started copying Matron for Tuktuk, then copying Tuktuk to ruin his Thopters/Sword of the Meek combo. Pretty soon he was out of resources. His deck had a weak spot where he 2:1s himself a lot. Mox Diamond and Transmute Artifact both make him lose CA, but the artifacts are supposed to be disruptive enough to make it worth it. They can't really afford to turn two cards into one card only to have a Tuktuk wreck their plans while STILL leaving a 2/2 body behind. It's a pretty grindy control match, but we are the grindiest, and I got the W.
G2 OH YOU KNOW I SIDED IN 2 MORE TUKTUKS.
I was on the draw and kept a loose 7 that was better than like 55% of mulls to 6, so I think it was correct to keep. Still, it was a bad hand and my opponent accelerated out quickly and I had nothing to catch up with. L
G3 I drew 3 Tuktuks. I originally put them in the board to deal with Equipment. I'm totally OK using them to beat Chalice control decks.
2-0
R3 - Czech Control
G1 We grind and grind. I'm in a really good position but I need my Ringleaders to cooperate. They do not, and I get my opponent down to 3 life before he stabilizes. Good game. But I still lose.
G2 This game was like T1 Lackey, T2 Port, T3 scoop
G3 I had to mull to 5 and scoop shortly after E Plague names Goblins.
2-1
R4 4 Color Delver? Grixis Delver?
G1 He fetches for a nonbasic and I Waste it and then he doesn't find another one.
G2 He has 2 Volcanic Islands and a Wasteland. I just play a bunch of goblins and kill him. Pretty sure him manabase failed him colossally both games. It sure feels good to be on the other side of that for a change. (Seriously though, look at my manabase! 24 manasources plus a Karakas in the sideboard, it was super consistent and reliable the past two tourneys)
3-1
R5 Nic Fit
This is the Win-and-In round for the Top 4.
G1 - Nic Fit is a sweet deck and my opponent is a specialist with it. The last few times we've played he's gotten the better of me. But here's the thing; the last time we played he had Top. Without the card filtering he wasn't able to dig for all his answers either game. So he would have a big play then not really have much to follow it up with, meanwhile I just kept on playing Goblins. It also doesn't hurt that I run more basics than he does, making the Veteran Explorer a bit of a liability for him now. We grind for a bit when when I land a Krenko and he's out of answers I take the game over.
G2 My opponent casts Siege Rhino. When I have 3 goblins (including a Prospector and active Sharpshooter) he plays a Toxic Deluge paying 3 life. I take the opportunity to machine gun 3 damage at him and Tarfire the Siege Rhino. 2 Ringleaders refill my board and I have enough lands when all is said and done to hardcast double-Matron, double-Tarfire in the final turn
4-1
Top 4 - Czech Pile rematch
G1 I'm on the play and have a triple-Aether Vial hand to start. I play them out while also using Port to slow my opponent's development. I believe I assembled the combo sort of on accident this game, which is to say it sorta fell into my lap and I was able to put all the pieces out there at once thanks to Vial.
G2 I hit a Leovold with a Gempalm and overrun this game pretty quickly. Yes, killing Leovold with Gempalm means you can draw a card off of Gempalm.
I was struck by how little we have to bring into this MU. We really do just need to grid this match out, I think. None of their creatures are special , they're just a bunch of x/2s, so we can win just by playing more of our equally vanilla dudes. I need to remind myself not to over-sideboard this match.
5-1
Finals - DnT
G1 I lead Mountain into Vial. He leads Plains into Vial. I play a Waste. He plays a Stoneforge Mystic off of a Cavern. I Tarfire the SFM and Waste the Cavern. I Vial in a Lackey. Lackey puts in Krenko. A second Tarfire kills the Revoker he Vials in next turn. That's game. We had already agreed to the split and my opponent wanted to head out, so we called it a day.
6-1!
This is the best that I've seen goblins positioned at in a long time. Combo is dead, and my meta usually has tons of combo. I'm just facing off with all of these grindy midrange decks and Goblins continues to be the best at that grinding aspect. Multiples of Tuktuk was huge. It was great against Tezzeret and Eldrazi, and was all ready to get sided in for the Finals. Tarfire did a TON of work today, killing DRS and Delvers all the damn day. The manabase was super dependable and I loved having access to so many basic Mountains. Using Matron to tutor up Kiki-Jiki was filthy as it allows you to start Matroning every turn for whatever you need. Sharpshooter felt much stronger with two sac outlets (Skirk and Chirurgeon). The combo kill was there today, plus I used Lightning Crafter another game to get added value out of Ringleader.
I would run the exact same 75 at my next tourney. This list is legit right now.
Glad to hear it. I wish Legacy fired in my area. It has all but died. Currently if I want to play Legacy I have to play X-Mage, or travel. I have also been messing around with Mono Red. I dabbled in WInstigator build again, and I am still disappointing with it's in-ability to change roles. It can do it, but it is slanted far more forward than I prefer.
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
Legacy Goblins Records
Our Discord
Olaf, that sucks that you cannot find tourneys! Are you going to sell off the paper and buy into MTGO? Last time I checked goblins was dirt cheap except for Port.
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Loved your write up! Makes me excited about Magic :)
I'm never selling this deck. I'd rather lose the entirety of the rest of my collection. I got into Magic with Warchief, Matron, and Ringleader, and I'm not gonna leave a brother behind. Besides, I can't just sell cannon fodder, who would we launch at our foes?
I generally don't want to support MTGO. I'd like that program to bite it so they can learn a lesson about Program Design. My dollar is my vote in that front, and it's not going there.
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
Legacy Goblins Records
Our Discord
Hi!
Hey all! Used to play Goblins back during Onslaught block ("Now listen closely, my young gob. There are many ways to eat pimple bugs, but back in the day ... "), so what better way to relive the nostalgia of those smaller years than by sleeving up some intemperate red wart-beasts in Legacy? I've been playing Skallerup's mono-red Winstigator list from GP Vegas, and thus far have gone 2-1 and 3-0-1 at two local events, with many more hopefully to come.
Actually, to be honest, I was expecting to bagel both, but it turns out drawing four off Ringleader ("red Jace," some might say?) is really good vs fair decks, even if you have no idea what you're doing? And trust me, I have basically no idea what I'm doing, other than repeatedly casting uncounterable card-advantage spells-attached-to-bodies off Caverns. So, I've got some questions for my wiser warren-brethren, if I might:
Some Questions!
(1) Mulligans. How important is hand-speed against an unknown opponent? For example, is Ringleader, Ringleader, Matron, Tarfire, Cavern, Mountain x2 keepable in the dark? I'd guess yes, since it contains a large chunk of card advantage, but perhaps this is giving the opponent too much free time, and one should mull to seek a Vial, Lackey, or Instigator?
What if the hand is something less coherent, like Siege-Gang Commander, Matron, Sharpshooter, Piledriver, Cavern, Mountain x2? It casts spells, certainly, but they may not do much for a while. Where's the line, here, and how can I tell?
Finally, can we keep hands that seem to need to resolve Vial to be viable (e.g., Wasteland, Vial, Tarfire, Matron, Matron, Ringleader, Krenko), or should we mull these at seven?
(2) Board commitment. How should I weigh risk of over-exposure to a sweeper (i.e., Terminus) when seeking to apply pressure to an opposing Jace? That is, the answer is likely contextual, but what are the sorts of heuristics one should use when deciding whether to cast, e.g., that extra Goblin Warchief, so that the Jace dies even with a piece of interaction available (e.g., Swords)?
Similarly, what influences whether one just decides to "go for it" (e.g., cast Siege-Gang, and give them one turn) vs a controlling opponent who might, say, untap and Toxic Deluge? The opposing worries are, of course, the risk of giving an opponent too much time, when going for it would do the job, and the risk of blowing a positional advantage by trying to force the kill too early. Of course, I'm sure, again, that it differs from situation to situation, so I guess the general question is, what are you thinking about, when you decide things like this? What should I be thinking about?
(3) Sequencing. By default, my sense is that given choice of Lackey or Vial on turn one in the dark, Vial is better, simply because of the high chance the opponent drops Deathrite Shaman on their turn. If one knows the opponent isn't packing Deathrite Shaman, however, but has cheap creature interaction (e.g., they are Unexpected Miracles, and have Swords), is a Vial still better? Or should one go for the higher-risk, higher-payoff play?
Similarly, running an Instigator list, is it better, perhaps, to play Lackey over Instigator (with Chrome Mox) on turn one, given the choice, since one doesn't lose the extra card? The thinking here would be something like, "the Instigator would have somewhat higher payoff, of course, if it connects, but a Lackey trigger is already quite good, and I'm not down an extra card if they have an answer like Swords."
I'm sure more confusions will arise as I continue to learn the deck, but that's all for now! Thanks for your time.
I'm no pro, but here's my two cents;
1) I feel that consistency is the most important factor when mulling. You should goldfish with the deck to get a feel for how hands play out over the course of a game. You should look at how consistent your hand is, and then gauge the speed according to your opponent's deck. Against an unknown opponent, you have to go by the speed of the format. Also, I wouldn't keep a one land hand, as I have never not regretted it.
2) If I remember correctly, the golden rule against Miracles was to have two creatures on the board. If you're expecting a sweeper, simply don't overextend. If your board is good enough and there is a reasonable chance of getting a Toxic Deluge on your parade, then hold back enough to rebuild your board.
3) I think you answered your own questions. Thinking a turn or two ahead will usually sort things out, and experience helps a lot here.
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