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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #841

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    The thing usually holding me back is just Deathrite Shaman. Additionally there are extra alpha strikes available to those who have a Mogg Raider.

    I have no idea if it's better, I just simply want to test it.
    I think that pyrokinesis deserves a place in the main actually, lets you port and develop your board while killing big threats from nowhere. It's really funny when you get your vial forced but you kill delver and DRS on turn two :D

  2. #842
    Faerie Godfather

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Honestly, with the prevalence of low toughness creatures in the whole DTB (Grixis Pyromancer, D&T, Elves, even Czech Pile), Pyrokinesis feels almost criminally efficient at a free 2-for-2 that's sadly not a Goblin but might well be crossing the MD threshold now. It's even decent against Eldrazi & co. and always poses the threat of pushing a Lackey through for Some Goblin Nonsense. Sure it's dead against ANT and SnT but those MUs don't generally come down to Ringleader grinding so the decreased Goblin count doesn't come into play that heavily and the cards you'd replace probably weren't your main plan anyways. And I'd say you should maximize your overall win rate in good match-ups rather than try to hedge against the bad ones.

  3. #843
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I’ve been goldfishing a lot of brews recently just trying to find something that feels consistent and powerful. The problem that I keep running into is the trade off between flexibility and consistency. We have tons of fun toolbox cards that are great or even necessary, but we don’t have enough deck slots for them. And those specialized cards are often too narrow and become dead in many MUs (take for example Tarfire being great against DRS decks but dead against combo). It seems that given our lack of filtering we just need to do something OP as fuck as quickly as possible.


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  4. #844
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Tarfire isn't dead against combo, it can deal 2 damage to the face. Usually, this is irrelevant, and it's absolutely the first card you cut postboard, but it's not dead.

    On the other hand, Tuktuk Scrapper is horrible against most of the field. Sharpshooter is bad against most of the field, too.

    So I agree, which is why the list I ran at my LGS last week didn't run a toolbox. I've tweaked my list a bit, but I'll wait to write about it until the next time I play with it.
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  5. #845
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Tarfire isn't dead against combo, it can deal 2 damage to the face. Usually, this is irrelevant, and it's absolutely the first card you cut postboard, but it's not dead.

    On the other hand, Tuktuk Scrapper is horrible against most of the field. Sharpshooter is bad against most of the field, too.

    So I agree, which is why the list I ran at my LGS last week didn't run a toolbox. I've tweaked my list a bit, but I'll wait to write about it until the next time I play with it.
    Yeah, Tuktuk is one of those cards that I consider indespensible even though it's crap. But we just get locked out so hard by Jitte and whatnot that it needs to be played. So we need to dedicate 1 slot to it even though it doesn't help us against the non-Jitte decks. It's being forced to run junk cards like that which leads Goblins players to post about fantasy cards. WILL DOMINARIA SET HAVE GOBBOS??? OOOH I CAN'T WAIT.

  6. #846

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I ve picked up my old friends and took them to a spin, and despite being a little poor performance dint felt terrible.

    Played small tournament with 4 rounds

    Round 1 - bye (don't play for a long time, and round 1 i don't play, damn)

    Round 2 - lost 0-2 against UR Delver. Game 1 i tricked my opponent until round 5 that he thought i was playing Death&Taxes, even played a cavern on humans to do so, got mana flood, saw all my lands and not enough creatures!!! Game 2 - saw all my removal and almost no creatures to push damage, died because of tnn.

    Round 3 - lost 1-2 against combo (Stifle Dreadnoght?!?!) With main torpor orb!!! REALLY!!! Yeah right...

    Round 4 - 4c Loam, win 2-0. Game 1 my opponent mulls to 4, easy win, second game, surgical did the job, and finally ringleader and company start working.

    Despite of not playing much i liked how the deck developed in games.

    Im trying this ... Next week ill try again, despite of having almost 50% combo on the store...
    I removed entirely krenko and siege gang, and now trying murderous redcap, i think that can make the difference, and having tarfire with legs that can become gut shots with legs can be awsome, specially with a vial at 4 for combat tricks, also maximizing the value of vials at 4.

    4 lackey
    1 chirurgeon
    3 mogg war marshal
    2 piledriver
    1 stingscourger
    4 goblin warchief
    4 goblin matron
    3 gempalm incinerator
    1 sharpshooter
    4 ringleader
    1 tuktuk scraper
    2 murderous redcap
    4 aether vial
    3 tarfire

    4 wasteland
    4 rishadan port
    3 cavern of souls
    5 mountain
    2 badlands
    3 bloostained mire
    2 arid mesa

    SIDEBOARD
    4 cabal therapy
    3 surgical extraction
    1 earwig squad
    1 blood moon
    1 stingscourger
    1 tuktuk scraper
    2 pyrokinesis
    2 confusion in the ranks

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  7. #847

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I have been running 2 MD pyrokinesis for over a year, with 2 Day-Twos at SCG Opens. (11-4, 9-6). I think it's 100% correct, it blows open close games into easy wins, and let's us compete against elves, D+T, and Delver practically on it's own. My only back and forth is whether there should be a 3rd in the sideboard.

  8. #848
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Since the last 2 weeks, I cut a Tarfire and tried again 1 Pyrokinesis MD. After 20+ online matches, it increased quite clearly my ratio against fair match-ups like Grixis Delver / 4C Control /BUG Midrange or even Miracles.

    I can really recommend it at the moment. Just like Marlock96 mentioned it, it helps us to catch up the pace, when our opponent is ahead with DRS+Delver after having forced our vial or lackey. Hence, with 30 creatures in the deck, we just don't care to lose 1 if we can kill many.

    Sparksmith was quite good for me lately, too. It's strong against big creatures, but I blame him to need a Warchief in play to be effective, to be vulnerable to removal, to hurt us if we are low on life. Gempalm Incinerator, on the contrary, draws us a card, kill a small/big guy and cannot be countered.

  9. #849

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Fellow Chieftains,

    This sunday i'am going to play a small legacy tournament (5 rounds). Last week i played a 7 round tournament with classic list white splash. It didnt feel verry good going 3-4
    Especially the Krenko gets pretty underwhelming (he gets killed right away) with less hastelords and al the fatal pushes. Next tot that there aren't enough combo decks in my area to justify the white board wich is only good for combo.
    Thats why i tried a different approached inspired by Fourbir and some other well known goblin players who splashed black with succes.

    This is the list wich i will be playing this sunday


    Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

    Creatures:28
    1 Goblin Chirurgeon
    4 Goblin Lackey
    2 Mogg War Marshall
    1 Stingscourger
    2 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Matron
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    3 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Earwig Squad
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    2 Siege-Gang Commander

    Spells:9
    4 AEther Vial
    2 Tarfire
    2 Warren Weirding
    1 Pyrokinesis

    Lands:23
    3 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Mountain
    4 Wasteland
    4 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard:15
    2 Bloodmoon
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Earwig Squad
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Pyrokinesis

    I cut the number of tarfires altough tarfire is really strong, it is not enough vs elves or grixis for example and it grows goyf.
    I also cut the number of gempalm incinerators. On turn 2 it just isnt good enough to push lackey through.
    Pyrikonesis on turn 2 versus elves almost seals the deal, you can wipe the board vs grixis or DenT. It can take care of bigger creatures if needed.
    Also sharpshooter get's a lot better with the 2 MD pyros.
    Yes its dead vs some combo decks but that is something we need to live with i guess

    Another thing is Aerwig Squad main deck i think he is absolutley a bom if cast for its prowl.
    - He can take care of equipments like jitte or bskill
    - He can steal games vs Storm
    - He makes pfire matches a lot easier if you can remove them
    - He can take care of boardwipes
    - He is almost insta-win vs mirracles (removing the wincons)
    - He can take care of craterhoof and friends
    - Versus Grixis you can remove the TNN (wich is our biggest problem vs grixis if not running pdriver
    - The card is really versitile and is never bad when cast for its prowl cost, next to that its a 5-3 body wich isnt bad either
    I would only bring in the other 2 from the sideboard vs combo decks like storm and lands i think

    Warren Weirding
    - Can always remove the creature on turn 2 whatever creature it is
    - Yes i know it can be dazed wich tarfire can't on t2 but it can also take care of really scarry creatures, emrakul and friends but also creatures like KoTR, TNN etc
    - Mabey 2 is to mutch but we will see
    - In some situations it can provide more creatures for you by sacking your own goblin

    Goblin Chirgueon over Skirk Prospector
    - Without krenko and a full playset of MwM i think this is the right choice
    - Also because of more fatal pushes this card can save critical creatures

    2 Siegegang over 1 Siegegang and 1 Krenko
    - Without white i have no place for karakas wich can save your own krenko
    - If pithing needle than you still have 4 boddies
    - better vs elves and it can kill delver/drs/yp and so on
    - It doesnt get killed by fatal push
    - Doesnt need a hastelord to be effective

    Tuktuk
    - He is a necessary evil, in many matchups he is dead but you can't afford to cut him in my oppinion
    - I rather have tuktuk than TSH since you can copy him with Kiki and i dont have to splash green for him

    Downside of this list
    All the black cards increase the number of fetches needed to make sure that you have black mana in your opener after boarding, wich makes it hard to play ports in this build
    next to that we have no answer to enchantments that hit the board, but i guess thats something i can live with, since we can discard them or remove them the Aerwig Squads

    Than for the sideboard
    Bloodmoon
    Takes care of Lands, verry strong vs pile/bug decks i think i would only board in on the play on the draw it seems to slow

    Faerie Macabre/Surgical
    Obviously vs graveyard decks (pfire/lands/reanimator/storm/dredge etc) it also works verry well with the discard package.
    They both serve the same goal. The big difference Surgical has a bit more impact, but he can get countered.
    Fearie Macabre, gets around counters and is free can take out 2 targets at once. For example vs reanimator with 2 creatures in the bin.
    So thats why i split those 2/2

    Aerwig Squad
    Just an extra answer vs combo decks

    Cabal therapy/Thoughtseize
    Strong vs equipment en combo decks, especially with 31 creatures (including tokens for siegegang) in the deck
    Thoughtseize serves the same goal as Cabal Therapy but even stronger because it's a 100% procent hit. Both really strong in combination with the graveyard hate

    Pyrikonesis
    Same reason why i packed 2 maindeck

    Some things i'am not sure about.

    Cutting Krenko
    What do you guys think of 2 Siege-Gang of Krenko and Siege-Gang in this list, and my reasoning behind this dicision

    Cabal Therapy
    In my honest oppinion i think this is one of the hardest cards to play in magic
    What would you pick vs these decks if in opening hand or wouldnt you play it al on t1 and just play vial or lackey if possible
    - Elves (do you choose the excellerator or the combo spell like NO, GSZ or something like that
    - Storm (do you pick cantrips or mana excellerators or tutors)
    - Sneak and Show (Do you pick cantrips or the sneak or the show it self
    - Reanimator (The reanimate spells or the entomb or cantrips)
    - BR reanimator (the reanimate spells mana excellerators or entomb)

    Finishers
    I only have 2 finishers in the deck. No piledrivers, no Krenko, no lightningcrafter combo.
    Do you guys think i need a tutorable 1-of piledriver, and if so what should i cut?

    I would really like to hear your guys oppinion on this list and reasoning for card choises.

    Thx In Advance :)

  10. #850

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    First and foremost, I don't think 2 sieges and 1 kiki jiki are better than krenko+shooter+warchief. I am not able to imagine any scenario in which I'd prefer those cards... but if you feel more confortable, test it!! I don't play any of them since long time ago. Don't play without Krenko, he is the best :D and you need a good finisher.

    Pyrok is so good but it puts you in cards disadvantage... I wouldn't play around goyfs, few decks play them right now... anyway, 4/5 or 5/6 is the same threat to deal with.

    I completely agree with you in how goods the earwigs are. At the beggining, I didn't play them but taking advantage of this forum I realised my mistake, you can even play 2 copies... I've been thinking to not play with piledrivers as well, but they are extremely tech against combo decks, so I'd play a single copy to be able to find it with the matron tutor, but, if you don't like it, hold this copy in the sb.

    Sideb, I usually play a different mana sources commanded by ancient tombs so my side is based on it. You can keep an eye on that (in this thread) if you like to test different combinations...

    Enjoy!!

  11. #851

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by cheinp View Post
    First and foremost, I don't think 2 sieges and 1 kiki jiki are better than krenko+shooter+warchief. I am not able to imagine any scenario in which I'd prefer those cards... but if you feel more confortable, test it!! I don't play any of them since long time ago. Don't play without Krenko, he is the best :D and you need a good finisher.

    Pyrok is so good but it puts you in cards disadvantage... I wouldn't play around goyfs, few decks play them right now... anyway, 4/5 or 5/6 is the same threat to deal with.

    I completely agree with you in how goods the earwigs are. At the beggining, I didn't play them but taking advantage of this forum I realised my mistake, you can even play 2 copies... I've been thinking to not play with piledrivers as well, but they are extremely tech against combo decks, so I'd play a single copy to be able to find it with the matron tutor, but, if you don't like it, hold this copy in the sb.

    Sideb, I usually play a different mana sources commanded by ancient tombs so my side is based on it. You can keep an eye on that (in this thread) if you like to test different combinations...

    Enjoy!!
    Thank you for your response and advise.

    I like to play Kiki because it can change boardstates completely being able to copy
    - Matron
    - Ringleader
    - Sharpshooter
    - Chieftain
    - Tuktuk
    - Siege-gang

    I dont play around goyf i jump block it for days just like gurmag angler.
    But i like the fact pyro can take out multiple targets, and we are still one of the biggest card advantage decks out there even with the pyro's main.

    Like some other said before
    T1-get your lackey/vial countered (if your t1 play doenst get countered your completlein the drivers seat
    T2-Pyro there board multiple elves, multiple creatures from delver decks) feels really really strong

    I would definitley prefer Siege-gang over Krenko in a couple of situations
    - D&T, they play 3 karakas 4 stp, revoker etc. If siege-gang gets removed or deactived he atleast leaves 3 bodies
    - Elves its sac ability makes it possible to kill combo elf pieces
    - Grixis, he can kill delver/DRS/YP Doesnt get killed by fatal push. If bolted he leaves 3 bodies on the field
    - Blade decks, you can use his sac ability to make sure jitte doesnt get counters
    I think Krenko is better in MU wich you want to finish fast like combo. But for that i have my sideboard.

    If you have black i don't think someone could justify not playing Aerwig Squad :)


    I really like your thoughts about the piledriver, iam really searching for a slot for him. But not sure what to cut:(.

  12. #852

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by dissy View Post
    Fellow Chieftains,

    This sunday i'am going to play a small legacy tournament (5 rounds). Last week i played a 7 round tournament with classic list white splash. It didnt feel verry good going 3-4
    Especially the Krenko gets pretty underwhelming (he gets killed right away) with less hastelords and al the fatal pushes. Next tot that there aren't enough combo decks in my area to justify the white board wich is only good for combo.
    Thats why i tried a different approached inspired by Fourbir and some other well known goblin players who splashed black with succes.

    This is the list wich i will be playing this sunday


    Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

    Creatures:28
    1 Goblin Chirurgeon
    4 Goblin Lackey
    2 Mogg War Marshall
    1 Stingscourger
    2 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Matron
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    3 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Earwig Squad
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    2 Siege-Gang Commander

    Spells:9
    4 AEther Vial
    2 Tarfire
    2 Warren Weirding
    1 Pyrokinesis

    Lands:23
    3 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Mountain
    4 Wasteland
    4 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard:15
    2 Bloodmoon
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Earwig Squad
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Pyrokinesis

    I cut the number of tarfires altough tarfire is really strong, it is not enough vs elves or grixis for example and it grows goyf.
    I also cut the number of gempalm incinerators. On turn 2 it just isnt good enough to push lackey through.
    Pyrikonesis on turn 2 versus elves almost seals the deal, you can wipe the board vs grixis or DenT. It can take care of bigger creatures if needed.
    Also sharpshooter get's a lot better with the 2 MD pyros.
    Yes its dead vs some combo decks but that is something we need to live with i guess

    Another thing is Aerwig Squad main deck i think he is absolutley a bom if cast for its prowl.
    - He can take care of equipments like jitte or bskill
    - He can steal games vs Storm
    - He makes pfire matches a lot easier if you can remove them
    - He can take care of boardwipes
    - He is almost insta-win vs mirracles (removing the wincons)
    - He can take care of craterhoof and friends
    - Versus Grixis you can remove the TNN (wich is our biggest problem vs grixis if not running pdriver
    - The card is really versitile and is never bad when cast for its prowl cost, next to that its a 5-3 body wich isnt bad either
    I would only bring in the other 2 from the sideboard vs combo decks like storm and lands i think

    Warren Weirding
    - Can always remove the creature on turn 2 whatever creature it is
    - Yes i know it can be dazed wich tarfire can't on t2 but it can also take care of really scarry creatures, emrakul and friends but also creatures like KoTR, TNN etc
    - Mabey 2 is to mutch but we will see
    - In some situations it can provide more creatures for you by sacking your own goblin

    Goblin Chirgueon over Skirk Prospector
    - Without krenko and a full playset of MwM i think this is the right choice
    - Also because of more fatal pushes this card can save critical creatures

    2 Siegegang over 1 Siegegang and 1 Krenko
    - Without white i have no place for karakas wich can save your own krenko
    - If pithing needle than you still have 4 boddies
    - better vs elves and it can kill delver/drs/yp and so on
    - It doesnt get killed by fatal push
    - Doesnt need a hastelord to be effective

    Tuktuk
    - He is a necessary evil, in many matchups he is dead but you can't afford to cut him in my oppinion
    - I rather have tuktuk than TSH since you can copy him with Kiki and i dont have to splash green for him

    Downside of this list
    All the black cards increase the number of fetches needed to make sure that you have black mana in your opener after boarding, wich makes it hard to play ports in this build
    next to that we have no answer to enchantments that hit the board, but i guess thats something i can live with, since we can discard them or remove them the Aerwig Squads

    Than for the sideboard
    Bloodmoon
    Takes care of Lands, verry strong vs pile/bug decks i think i would only board in on the play on the draw it seems to slow

    Faerie Macabre/Surgical
    Obviously vs graveyard decks (pfire/lands/reanimator/storm/dredge etc) it also works verry well with the discard package.
    They both serve the same goal. The big difference Surgical has a bit more impact, but he can get countered.
    Fearie Macabre, gets around counters and is free can take out 2 targets at once. For example vs reanimator with 2 creatures in the bin.
    So thats why i split those 2/2

    Aerwig Squad
    Just an extra answer vs combo decks

    Cabal therapy/Thoughtseize
    Strong vs equipment en combo decks, especially with 31 creatures (including tokens for siegegang) in the deck
    Thoughtseize serves the same goal as Cabal Therapy but even stronger because it's a 100% procent hit. Both really strong in combination with the graveyard hate

    Pyrikonesis
    Same reason why i packed 2 maindeck

    Some things i'am not sure about.

    Cutting Krenko
    What do you guys think of 2 Siege-Gang of Krenko and Siege-Gang in this list, and my reasoning behind this dicision

    Cabal Therapy
    In my honest oppinion i think this is one of the hardest cards to play in magic
    What would you pick vs these decks if in opening hand or wouldnt you play it al on t1 and just play vial or lackey if possible
    - Elves (do you choose the excellerator or the combo spell like NO, GSZ or something like that
    - Storm (do you pick cantrips or mana excellerators or tutors)
    - Sneak and Show (Do you pick cantrips or the sneak or the show it self
    - Reanimator (The reanimate spells or the entomb or cantrips)
    - BR reanimator (the reanimate spells mana excellerators or entomb)

    Finishers
    I only have 2 finishers in the deck. No piledrivers, no Krenko, no lightningcrafter combo.
    Do you guys think i need a tutorable 1-of piledriver, and if so what should i cut?

    I would really like to hear your guys oppinion on this list and reasoning for card choises.

    Thx In Advance :)
    This list fits your style of playing the deck, no one can say if it's actually better or worse than any other list.
    But you could accept some suggestions maybe (:
    1 Personally, i would not recommend leaving home without the full set of warchief: they provide the best type of advantage we want.
    2 Your list is full of removal, i'd try to cut the scrapper for more toolbox/stability(4th warchief) since no equipments will be attached to creatures (you're playing 2 weirdings/2 pyrokinesis, are you really afraid of stonforge mystic? :P)
    3 I really love ports, your deck doesn't seem an aggro version to me, so why not give a try to some ports? They give you extra t2 "drops" and can be nasty in dead turns.
    4 too much aerwig squads in SB/MD

    I like playing a different list of the deck so I may not be the best advisor, but hope that it could help anyway (:

  13. #853

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @dissy I like to play 2 SGC over 1-1 split with krenko. He is the best finisher we have imho.

    Right now the meta is very grindy with a lot of grixis control/4c pile everywhere, also jund is well played in my local meta. In this kind of MU I don't like to rely on activations or multiple cards to gain an advantage because many times I have empty board with very full graveyard (also opponents) and every creature that touches the ground die very fast tnx to bolt, push, snappy, both Lili, punishing fire, toxic deluge, golgari charm, plague etc. So it's very hard to make many tokens with krenko.
    Similarly I often find myself without juicy target for Kiki or nothing to champion with crafter. SGC do his job immediately and give us also removals, he's great! Kiki is better than krenko in this kind of situation tnx to his build-in haste.

    I also would like to try 1-2 copies of rabblemaster because it will be a great top deck or matron target in grindy MU.

    On the other hand, the "K" bosses are the best for steal hard games, especially when you have to face creatures hard to deal with. Make thousand of tokens or copying sharpshooter to throw twice damage over huge blockers are our only way to win sometimes.
    So it's definitely a meta choice in my opinion.
    I like to have at least one piledriver for his Blu protection against TNN and for every situation where we have to race as fast as we can. In the worst scenario he will eat a removal or kill a chump-blocker.

    I won't like to have less than 4 tarfire personally (also because i'm mono R), anyway you have already a lot of removals.

    Even if I'm playing mono red fetch-less list, Black splash is very strong (EWsquad and edict) but I think top deck manipulation (mirri's guile and sylvan library) could be also very powerful in actual grindy meta. I don't have any dual atm but I think green is a strong choice now.



    *i did some minor edit to fix cellphone typing*
    Last edited by menph; 11-16-2017 at 05:55 PM.

  14. #854

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @dissy

    I agree with you that the black splash is very powerful. 3 Earwigs is probably excessive unless you have a ton of ANT and Miracles in your area though. Squad's great in a lot of matchups, but you only really want more than 1 those in particular. Your board also looks a little weak to some of the fair decks, I feel like some Relics of Progenitus or maybe Sparksmith could be worth adding. With so many blacks sources, you can also extremely comfortably play K command, which is an absolute house and really insulates against both equipment and hymn decks by recurring discarded/dead/countered goblins.

    If you want to play ports in a black splash list, I think having 9 black sources is acceptable. I play 24 lands right now in order to play the full 4 ports and avoid mana screw, but if you want to stick with 23, you could try this:


    6 Fetches
    4 Caverns
    4 Wasteland
    3 Badlands
    3 Mountain
    3 Port

    A major concern I have with your list is that it's pretty reactive. You're gonna have a hard time pressuring the opponent in a meaningful way without any piledrivers or other beaters. Ports would help alleviate this problem. Your curve is also really high. There's gonna be a notable number of hands where you're staring at a bunch of uncastable 5 drops. 3 Finishers + Squad seems like just too many.

    @the discussion on finishers: I am really unsure whether Siege Gang or Krenko is better, because they die to different things. Siege gang dodges fatal push, but dies to K command, forked bolt, punishing fire, and so on. He's also worse against Stifle, since stifiling a Krenko trigger is merely delaying the inevitable. 5 is also way way more than 4. Ticking a vial to 5 means it's dead for the rest of the game, whereas 4 is right where we want to be to drop ringleaders anyway. All this being said, siege gang is really helpful for killing planeswalkers, getting around ensnaring bridge, generally annihilating D&T and Elves. It's quite a tough call. I think I'm gonna try to just play both for awhile. They're really good in topdecks, and have giant board impacts. I'm playing 24 lands, so a 5 drop isn't as big a deal as I normally think it is.

    Piledriver is also really really good right now guys. Lotta decks with creature bases that are 4x drs then all blue creatures (pile in particular).

    For the record, I've done some testing with a bunch of unconventional card choices over the last months. I've tested Loam + K command as engines in the goblins shell, Mother of Runes, and Deathrite Shaman. The Loam deck had the problem of losing really hard to DRS, which is not a problem we want to be having. Mom was medium, Chirurgeon is better I think. Deathrite had the most potential, the card is just dumb powerful. Having access to maindeck gravehate and being able to nullify other DRS is really sweet. Not currently doing any testing on that front, but if someone's feeling adventurous, I'd try it out.

    EDIT: Some therapy strategy points. Dissy brings up what to name against various combo decks. Normally, the idea with therapy is "name what what you can't beat", and this bears out in some of the matchups. T1 on the play against Elves I might be tempted to name deathrite, gsz, or symbiote, those are their best cards. However, chances are that you kept a hand against elves that has some kind of removal, so I default to naming natural order. Natural order is how we lose against elves almost every time. The only time this might change would be if I think they have an answer to a critical card in my hand (abrupt decay for a sharpshooter or needle). On the draw, I def name natural order to make sure I don't just die on t3.

    Sneak and Show I default to Show and Tell, especially with the Omniscience versions being more popular nowadays. Chances are you can strand the payoff cards more than enablers. Surgical is also kinda nice against them if you're bringing in a ton of discard spells, since if you surgical the show and tells, they end up with a bunch of dead draws in their deck.

    Against Storm I name LED, Brainstorm, or Dark Ritual on the play, Infernal Tutor on the draw.

    Reanimator: Both versions I target the entombs. They only have 4 entombs and 4 ways to discard (faithless or careful study), and they have 12 reanimation spells (reanimate, exhume, animate dead). Against the blue version maybe you name brainstorm sometimes? I dunno. On the draw it's tougher. There's a pretty high chance that if they didn't cast the entomb in response to the therapy, then they don't have it, in which case I'd name the reanimate since reanimator can sometimes be really tightly strapped for mana and could be missing another mana source. If you can keep the fatties in their hand, then their deck does literal nothing.
    Last edited by 1GoblinLackey; 11-17-2017 at 02:25 AM.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Post DRS Goblins MTGO Leagues Only Data

  15. #855

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    @dissy

    I agree with you that the black splash is very powerful. 3 Earwigs is probably excessive unless you have a ton of ANT and Miracles in your area though. Squad's great in a lot of matchups, but you only really want more than 1 those in particular. Your board also looks a little weak to some of the fair decks, I feel like some Relics of Progenitus or maybe Sparksmith could be worth adding. With so many blacks sources, you can also extremely comfortably play K command, which is an absolute house and really insulates against both equipment and hymn decks by recurring discarded/dead/countered goblins.

    If you want to play ports in a black splash list, I think having 9 black sources is acceptable. I play 24 lands right now in order to play the full 4 ports and avoid mana screw, but if you want to stick with 23, you could try this:


    6 Fetches
    4 Caverns
    4 Wasteland
    3 Badlands
    3 Mountain
    3 Port

    A major concern I have with your list is that it's pretty reactive. You're gonna have a hard time pressuring the opponent in a meaningful way without any piledrivers or other beaters. Ports would help alleviate this problem. Your curve is also really high. There's gonna be a notable number of hands where you're staring at a bunch of uncastable 5 drops. 3 Finishers + Squad seems like just too many.

    @the discussion on finishers: I am really unsure whether Siege Gang or Krenko is better, because they die to different things. Siege gang dodges fatal push, but dies to K command, forked bolt, punishing fire, and so on. He's also worse against Stifle, since stifiling a Krenko trigger is merely delaying the inevitable. 5 is also way way more than 4. Ticking a vial to 5 means it's dead for the rest of the game, whereas 4 is right where we want to be to drop ringleaders anyway. All this being said, siege gang is really helpful for killing planeswalkers, getting around ensnaring bridge, generally annihilating D&T and Elves. It's quite a tough call. I think I'm gonna try to just play both for awhile. They're really good in topdecks, and have giant board impacts. I'm playing 24 lands, so a 5 drop isn't as big a deal as I normally think it is.

    Piledriver is also really really good right now guys. Lotta decks with creature bases that are 4x drs then all blue creatures (pile in particular).
    I play this manabase -1 fetch +1 Port and havent had too many issues with it (If you put a gun to my head and said 'Play a different mix of 23 lands' then I would use what 1GoblinLackey is suggesting).

    Even though his list only has 2 Tarfires I think any 5 of Tarfire/Pyro/Weirding is probably about right.
    I agree that 3 Earwig in the 75 is probably too many.
    I currently play 1 Crafter 1 Kiki 1 Krenko 1 Earwig 0 SGC and I would consider cutting the Krenko for SGC, or MAYBE cutting something else for SGC but I think this is pushing the curve a bit far.
    Crafter does a lot that people love Siege Gang for in terms of being able to kill a PW, or shoot down small guys, or ping over a Moat etc etc and just like Siege Gang it often leaves behind some value when it dies.

  16. #856
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Played Goblins again at my LGS last night, going 3-1 this time. I probably won't be playing Goblins again for a while, but it was definitely fun playing it two weeks in a row.

    I made some tweaks to my list since last time, which felt much better.

    R/b Vial Goblins

    Lands (22)
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Badlands
    6 Mountain
    4 Wasteland

    Creatures (28)
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader

    Spells (10)
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Tarfire
    2 Warren Weirding

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Tuktuk Scrapper
    2 Goblin Sharpshooter
    1 Stingscourger

    Basically, I cut 2 Goblin Chieftan for 2 more Goblin Piledriver, and I cut Krenko for the 2nd Warren Weirding.

    Krenko did nothing for me last week, and wouldn't have done anything for me this week either. I cut it because I went down on hastelords, but I never missed it. I think Krenko would be solid against grindy decks that can stall out the board, like D&T and Maverick, but Goblin Ringleader just seems so much better more often.

    Goblin Piledriver was great. I'm not sure why people started trimming these in the first place. The older successful lists always ran 4. In almost every game, Piledriver took my mediocre board of a few small Goblins and turned it into a serious problem that the opponent had to either deal with immediately, or lose.

    The extra removal via the 2nd Weirding felt correct. I'm quite happy with this configuration at the moment.

    Anyway, onto the matchups:

    Round 1 vs Deathblade 2-0
    He was playing the Jon Goss list. In game one, I have an unanswered Lackey that puts a Ringleader into play that hits 3 Goblins, but what ultimately won me the game was that he kept a land light hand and my double Wasteland hand blew him out. In game two, I just did what Goblins does... Tarfire killed his SFM, I put Goblins on the board, blew up a Jitte with Tutuk, and outvalued him. I killed him one turn before he could get to a hardcast Batterskull.

    Round 2 vs Infect 2-1
    I lose the die roll but I keep a good hand. I kill two Blighted Agents, get a board with a couple of Goblins, and Matron for a Ringleader for the the next turn. I play a Mountain instead of the Wasteland in my hand, and he EOT Crop Rotates for Inkmoth, untaps and has Invigorate + Berserk for lethal while I'm sitting on a Gempalm Incinerator (don't have enough mana to cast) and a Wasteland in hand. In game two, I have tons of removal and a pile of Goblins on board. In game three, I have a turn 1 Lackey, kill a Glistener Elf and Lackey puts a Warchief into play, next turn I play double Piledriver and threaten to put him at 1... he fetches for Savannah to Plow one of the Piledriver's, but it's too little too late. I play a Wasteland that deals with an Inkmoth Nexus, and kill him on the next turn.

    Round 3 vs TES 1-2
    He wins the die roll. I mull two horrible hands and keep a weak 5. He kills me on his turn 4 with a lethal Tendrils. In game two, I keep a disruption-less hand with a Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Ringleader, and 3 lands. He double Probes and fetches to put himself to 15, Lackey drops him to 14 and puts Warchief into play. Next turn I topdeck a War Marshal, play Piledriver and War Marshal, and swing for 14 for the turn 3 kill. In game three, I mulligan another two horrible hands down to 5. My blind Therapy misses, and he kills me on turn 2 with a lethal Tendrils.

    Round 4 vs Metalworker Stax 2-0
    I win the die roll. In game one, I have a Vial + Lackey hand that puts me way too far ahead. In game two, I keep a much slower hand and he gets an early Tabernacle to slow things down even more. I get a midgame Vial, and I'm slowly chipping away. He deals alot of damage to himself with Ancient Tombs this game. He has the board stabilized at 4 life with Crucible, Inventor's Fair, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, a Metalworker, and no cards in hand... but I EOT a Warchief, tick Vial to 4, and play both of the Tuktuks that I've been sitting on all game to blow up both Bridges, and swing for lethal.
    Sligh
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  17. #857

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    He has the board stabilized at 4 life with Crucible, Inventor's Fair, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, a Metalworker, and no cards in hand... but I EOT a Warchief, tick Vial to 4, and play both of the Tuktuks that I've been sitting on all game to blow up both Bridges, and swing for lethal.
    Its worth pointing out (for people that might not know) that if you vial in the 2nd scrapper in response to the trigger of the first one then they both see 2 allies and deal 2 damage each, which would have been lethal without attacking.
    Obviously it was irrelevant here but what if your opponent had 3 Ensnaring Bridges? haha

    Still not convinced about Piledriver but I appreciate the data.
    Having a board of 'a few mediocre goblins' becomes a much less likely situation if you don't play 4 Warchief 4 Marshal.

    The 'problem' (Obviously I can't say 100% whether you are right or wrong on this but this is how I see it) is that you are stuck in this logic loop where it's like:

    a) 4 Piledriver is good
    b) Therefore, it is good to play 4 MWM and 4 Warchief because they help to enable 4 Piledriver
    c) Therefore, 4 Gempalm is good because they are good with 4 MWM

    or maybe it's the other way around, for example your premise is that Gempalm is good

    a) 4 Gempalm is good
    b) Therefore, it is good to play 4 MWM to enable 4 Gempalm
    c) Therefore, it is good to play 4 Piledriver because it's good with 4 MWM
    d) Therefore, it is good to play 4 Warchief because it's good with 4 MWM and 4 Piledriver

    Cutting any individual one of these cards seems bad, because they are all somewhat dependent on each other. (It results in situations like "I can't cut MWM, Gempalm will suck", "I can't cut Piledriver, it powers up MWM too much")

    I agree that this set of cards has a lot of synergy between them, but in my opinion the overall combination is not as good as a build of Goblins where you cut this stack of cards almost entirely.
    This is a big leap of faith I guess but IMO the reason why goblins is good is Vial/Matron/Ringleader (and probably Lackey even with DRS in the picture). You don't have to play all the other cards just because they were good in standard/extended 10+ years ago.

  18. #858
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    There's no logic loop forcing me to play those cards, they're simply good cards that have great synergy together. Mogg War Marshal is fantastic for getting multiple bodies on the board cheaply, and I'm never upset to see one. Piledriver is another cheap threat that forces the opponent to have an answer. Warchief's cost reduction allows the deck to flood the board with Goblins faster and makes the deck more aggressive by giving everything haste.

    I have no idea what you're on about by referencing Standard and Extended. Go look at Legacy Goblins lists from 2005 to 2010, when the deck was a force in the metagame, and you'll see the same core of Vial/Lackey/Piledriver/Gempalm/Warchief/Matron/Ringleader as 4-of's in most of those lists. I can understand trimming some Gempalm's these days because there are more removal options available, but the rest of that core hasn't changed for good reason.

    I'm not saying that running situational one-of's and higher cc Goblins are bad, but I think lowering the curve and focusing on improving the consistency of the core gameplan is a better approach to building Goblins. Some may agree, many will disagree, but I'm not really here to convince anyone. I only came to share my experiences. Take from it what you will.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  19. #859

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post

    Round 4 vs Metalworker Stax 2-0
    I win the die roll. In game one, I have a Vial + Lackey hand that puts me way too far ahead. In game two, I keep a much slower hand and he gets an early Tabernacle to slow things down even more. I get a midgame Vial, and I'm slowly chipping away. He deals alot of damage to himself with Ancient Tombs this game. He has the board stabilized at 4 life with Crucible, Inventor's Fair, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, a Metalworker, and no cards in hand... but I EOT a Warchief, tick Vial to 4, and play both of the Tuktuks that I've been sitting on all game to blow up both Bridges, and swing for lethal.
    The end was still hilarious. Don't forget the mistrigger with that tabernacle

  20. #860
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by PuppyWuppy View Post
    The end was still hilarious. Don't forget the mistrigger with that tabernacle
    We both missed one Tabernacle trigger that game, but mine was fairly low impact. I lost two 1/1 tokens, and he had 2 Bridges with no cards in hand at that point anyway. Regardless, it was a missplay on my part, not going to deny that.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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