On another note: I know our Reanimator MU is atrocious, but what’s the general strategy for winning that?
PrayingOriginally Posted by Kodieyost
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Play some dedicated hate cards that splash other matchups in your sideboard. Surgical and grafdiggers are both great. Cabal therapy and thoughtsieze work fine. Warren weirding beats everything except g-daddy
There are some tricks: stingscouger is def better than weirding 90% of the time, but weirding dodges Iona. Graf cage is probablly the best card in the matchup, followed by surgical. A big reason why stingscouger is better is that once it echoes away, it essentially turns off exhume. Getting a Matron or sting into the yard is a great position to be in.
I’ve been testing against UB reanimator for months now and from all the games (I like to lose this matchup) Stingscourger is just the best Goblin we have for them. As stated it shuts off exhume, and I like to bring in hand hate from the board and try to take their reanimate spells. Can’t really be fast against them. If you’re splashing black you get EWS which works wonders. But generally it’s so hard to get ahead here. Another deck I think we like to struggle against is elves but from what I’ve gathered from games is that a heavy creature destruction package does great in the early game to buy us time for a matron/sharpshooter. Testing partners both run those two decks so every weekend I get to be the luckiest guy in the world and eat crap lol. But it has tought me that these games are winnable, just very hard to get good win percentages. Just hope ou generally avoid these ones.
Against reanimator, Grafdigger's and Stingscourger are what I use along with quick pressure. Against elves, it's easier on the play with a lacky and removal but in the post board games holding up pyrokenisis to respond to the craterhoof trigger is really good against inexperienced elves players and then your buddies that play the deck a lot will always play around the possibility after you do it to them once.
the 2-drop we were searching for has finally been spoiled!!!!
jeez
Anybody still playing the 2 mana 1/2 can finally upgrade :D
hi there everybody,
fourbirr's game was streamed at 2:22 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MX8Au5s_5Q
a very bad MU for us..
personally this rector version of Nic Fit with big enchantments is my favourite deck atm. i wish i had most of the card to wrap it up
about the mana-stability topic of the last week: what do you think about cutting most of the non-basics for more mountains and add a couple of Price of Progres as unexpected game-closing shenanigan?
i think we could keep just caverns for delver MU ( maybe a couple of ports for some value) and then steal games out of nowhere thank to the best legacy burn spell.
i didn't have time to test it out properly yet but could be interesting to try it out
lol
Game 1 is at 2:00:00
"We thought about playing starfield but we decided that we don't want to make our curses vulnerable to removal" I see why these guys are 1-3 klappa
I think they misplay a lot g2, at least they realise you should have matroned for tarfire (unless you only kept in 1, which is reasonable in this mu, but then g3 you still have Pyrokinesis? Interested to see your list and how your boarded here)
I think you arguably played too many things into on-board deed in both g2 and g3
If you want to play a non-goblin burn card then why not Goblin Grenade? In any matchup you would want PoP except Lands and maybe Eldrazi I don't think it's worth making your Ringleaders worse.
Hi Menph,
Thank you for sharing the link. I was playing a league on MTGO and didn't know it was streamed. Game 1, I was really slow, because this Nic Fit version was new to me and I didn't know how to interact. The version I know has Veteran Explorer, Siege Rhino, Tireless Tracker as creatures.
After the mulligan, my hand was 2 lands, 2 lackeys, 1 Sharpshooter and 1 Piledriver, which is absolutely keepable. Normally, against a midrange deck like Nic Fit, my strategy is to not touch Veteran Explore, because they have to find a Therapy to sacrifice him. I think it's usually better to build a board, then rush them, because we don't want to let them cast things that we can't deal with on turn 4 or 5.
The thing is that I was afraid by the double Cabal Therapy+Veteran sac which would have left me with pretty nothing in hand. I shouldn't have attacked Veteran on T2 without a Rishadan Port in backup to cut the black. Later on, chaining Academy Rector was too much that I could manage. G2, I didn't Matron for Tarfire, because I did not have it. G3, Therapy ripped my hand. Not much that I could do, anyway.
My list was:
23 lands
4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Fetches
4 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
16 core
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 spells
2 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis
Sideboard
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
I boarded like this:
-1 Skirk Prospector, -1 MWM, -1 Tarfire, -1 Lackey, -2 Piledriver, -1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Stingscourger, +2 Pithing Needle (Pernicious Deed, Garruk), +2 Surgical Extraction (Green Sun Zenit, Veteran, Cabal Therapy, Academy Rector), +2 Pyrokinesis (Lingering Souls)
A few games before this one, I played against the same Nic Fit list and won, thanks to the strategy applied like mentioned before. But it's a tough MU and I don't like it at all.
I see a lot of you guys playing 3x warchiefs in a build with 4 piledrivers.
Seems like a mistake to me, they synergize really well together in an aggressive list like yours.
1 Do you feel the lack of it or it is just correct actually playing 3?
2 Has anyone tryed the classic list with no finishers? (4piledrivers/no toolbox/no finishers/mono sting)
Hi Marlock,
Nice that you asked. I will try to answer your questions, but it won't be one by one, because they are related and need dependently explanations. Sorry in advance if it's a bit long. But it's not like we have 1'000+ post every day :-)
Actually, I played a 4/4 Warchief/Piledriver split since Onslaught. At the moment, having 4 Piledrivers is absolutely true for me. If I cut just 1, I feel the difference and I wish I could matron for him a 4th time. In this list, Piledriver is a must and when I replaced him to test Bloodmark Mentor or Ember Hauler, it wasn't fine. Piledriver is much scarier than the other two's and more explosive. I realized that I just weakened the deck. Pro blue is so important for us against the tier 1 decks. He is actually the only finisher, Siege-Gang comes second. I couldn't recommend him more.
There is a lot of Plagues on MTGO or in my local meta to solve the TNN problem and all the 1/1's Grixis tokens. I wanted to win these matches and aside Wear//Tear or Krosan Grip, Chieftain is the only way we have to survive Plague. Furthermore he is a goblin, is matronable and gives haste.
I consider Chieftain belongs to the toolbox. The 1-of Chieftain in my list came after a long testing and he clearly improved my results. Until now, I never missed the 4th Warchief and it was never a problem to cast Piledriver. My losses are generally not due to the sole aspect of not being able to bring Piledriver on board or having haste. I consider the match in its entirety, not only aggro, cast Warchief, then cast Piledriver and swing. I like having a lot of different ways to solve a problem. Gempalm to kill Baleful Strix as well as Gurmag, Sharpshooter to deal the last damage to a missed Gempalm or make an elves stew, Prospector to make infinite mana with Mogg War Marshall, Tin Street for Batterskull or Baleful/Parasitic Strix, Stingscourger for Grigri or even Shaman if he is on the way for Lackey, Port against...anything. Each card of any goblin list isn't that strong alone, but benefit the synergy of the whole deck. If we can play well with the toolbox, then we have access to multiple answers in a wide spread of different situations.
As long as we can interact with our opponent, thanks to our toolbox, we give him problems that he needs to solve. With the full aggro approach, I feel vulnerable to the specific card that will shut down the aggro plan and there is then no back-up. I feel that the full aggro plan represent only 30% of all other possibilities the deck really can do.
Most of the time, victories come from all the 1/1s dealing 2 or 3 damages a turn. For these 1/1s to live longer, and to make a really scary turn with Piledriver, I found that matroning/vialing for Chieftain was a big problem for my opponent that he had to answer. I would say that 95% of the time, he takes a bolt which lets Piledriver, Sharpshooter or other buddies live longer. This is fine, because my opponent will have to find new answer for his next turn, because a Sharpshooter or living Piledriver can be REAL trouble, same goes for Krenko/Winstigator/Kiki Jikki.
This list is the process of creating a versatile way to fight against Grixis, Czech Pile, BUG Control. For my part, there are 4 changes that increased the winning ratio from 53% to 59% which was:
MD
- 4 basic mountains, instead of 3
- 1 Pyrokinesis main deck instead of the 4th Gempalm
SB
- 2 Pyroblast
- 2 Surgical Extraction
I had to make these changes, because my ratio was dropping day after day. I played almost against the same online players, so I knew that something was wrong with the list. I also changed a long played Tuktuk with Tin Street, but for now, I can't really say that it improved a lot the D&T MU, because I almost never play against them. The difference with Tuktuk is in his CMC. The hooligan rather shines against non D&T decks, like BUG midrange. He can answer an early TNN+Jitte. And if not, then he's still a 2/1 for R with Warchief in play to support Piledriver or steal 2 damages. In a very grindy meta, I find it good, it's better than a vanilla 2/2 for 2 like the last spoil ;-)
Have a nice testing week-end guys
Thanks!
I use to play 0 piledrivers in my list, just 'cause I always thought this deck as a "control" deck.
And I really feel comfortable with this list actually, going top on some large events. But all these TNN around are quite scary.. i'd like to bring piledrivers back, but they won't really synergize well with a toolbox list, which is my favourite way to play the deck.
I would probably try warren weirdings against TNNs instead of piledrivers, it solves really well the threat when needed and doesn't need a board to be scary, just solves the problem itself.
By the way, I'm testing a new card: active volcano as a sideboard option.
You may just say:"play reb you idiot", but here's a little explanation about the choice:
How many times do we have to keep our mana open to COUNTER a spell? How many times we use reb to kill something already in play instead?
I know that this can't solve TNN problem, but neither can reb. Usually, we end up tapping out our mana casting a creature or just reb gets countered, making us losing a turn.
What about having vial in play and bouncing an underground T2 instead?
I think that tempo is our biggest problem nowdays, and cutting a landrop seems a good option to me.
We play 4 waste and 4 ports, having more mana denial makes actually a madness for our opponent casting his cards, especially when all their CC are around 3. Besides that, it always can be used as removal for delver/jace as reb. I tested it with friends only but it seems working preatty well. What do you think about this option? :-)
play reb you idiot
In any hypothetical matchup that is so tempo-oriented that you would want to unsummon your opponent's land, Goblins doesn't have the means to apply pressure consistently enough to abuse this speed boost. In any matchup where this tempo doesn't matter you will be sad that you can't counter Show and Tell, TNN etc or that it's a card you can't hit with Ringleader.
To be honest I don't play Red Blast either but Volcano is just bad imo, sure you can still Vindicate jace with it, but people shouldn't be leaving jace in their deck vs you after sideboarding anyway
I agree with your thoughts on Weirding
I also agree with Fourbirr's reasoning for playing minimum 1 Chieftain maindeck (regardless of # of Warchief) but I don't agree that boarding in Pyrokinesis vs Lingering Souls makes sense.
In other news, my first experience with RR Grenzo is that it gave me a land and Counterspell and then my opponent played Karakas...
not sure about this
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How many times did you counter a TNN or a SnT with reb? We just have to use our mana to deploy our threats, we can't afford to leave our mana open for an hypotetical counter the most of the times.
I tested a lot aginst SnT, and trust me, I did counter SnT like one time in 40 games. T1 lackey T2 active volcano seems a pretty reasonable play since you probably kill your opponent before they could do anything. (If they go off on T1 or 2 it doesn't really matter if you have reb or volcano)
Well like I said, I also dislike reb. I don't think that a weird Boomerang/REB split card is worth playing either. Remember every Volcano you draw is 1 less attacker which makes it much less likely that you will kill the opponent quickly. (You're also spending a mana on the Volcano on turn 1 or 2, so you are also hindering your own development). For this card to actually be scary your draw has to be like mountain x2 , lackey, warchief, volcano, Piledriver, plus 1 more Piledriver/MWM etc. A huge factor of how I evaluate this card is that I think REB is already very bad vs non-combo matchups and Volcano is probably even worse against combo because it can't counter a spell. If you really wanted to play a card-disadvantage tempo swing that only really makes sense as a follow up to a lackey in a nut-draw vs blue combo then Active Volcano might even be worse than Raze.
Regarding Jace, he's very bad at protecting himself with the minus ability against both haste creatures and creatures with beneficial etb abilities, which Goblins is full of. Like any PW he's also not good against decks that can swarm the board. Your opponent might not have enough other threats in the 75 or they might think that they have enough sweepers that Jace is still a viable win condition, but in general I think this card is very bad against Goblins.
Since people were asking about it, I wrote about our matchup vs Reanimator . Enjoy!
R/B Goblins
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Hey Sandro, thanks for writing the article. The link you posted is broken on my end, I found it by going through the website itself though. Your conclusions reflect my own that if you have some reasonable number of targeted sideboard slots, the matchup is probably 50/50 postboard. Problem is getting through game 1 with a win.
I think there's some things worth mentioning that I didn't see in the article.
-Evaluate Cavern highly in openers. Since most reanimator builds nowadays play the 4 Chancellors of Norn, breaking the tax with an uncounterable goblin is great. Even if they end up reanimating something that's not griselbrand or iona on t1, Lackey can force a staring match for a little bit, which definitely favors us.
-Beware show and tells postboard if you ever see a blue land! It's one of their more elegant ways to dodge graf cage and surgical. If they do go for this plan, discard spells get markedly better.
-Really good observation to nail the entombs. Even faithless looting is worth going after sometimes, since they usually can't flash it back and then reanimate in the same turn.
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