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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #961
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Since people were asking about it, I wrote about our matchup vs Reanimator. Enjoy!
    Thank you for writing this article and taking the time to answer Kodieyost's question. Good cmm1GoblinLackey to add a relevant point with Cavern versus Chancellor of the Annex.

    Like pointed out, Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction or Leyline of the Void are almost auto-wins G2 and G3. Sadly, that's only 2 or 3 cards from the sideboard to bring in and chances are very low to find 1 in the opening hand or the next 2 mulligans. In my opinion, that's not enough and must be complemented by mana denial.

    If we survive T1 & T2, thanks to a well played Surgical or Cabal Therapy, Rishadan Port + Thalia then give us many turns to live. It often leads to a victory, unless they have enough mana to hardcast a big boy with dark ritual/mox/petal chaining.

    Reanimator is really scary G1, but postboard, I agree with 1GoblinLackey that it's almost 50/50. Here are some scenarios G1:

    T1: Cavern + Lackey (dodging Chancellor)
    T2: Lackey connects -> Warchief. Play mountain, cast Piledriver+MWM. PRAY! (very important)
    or
    T2: Lackey connects -> Warchief. Play mountain, cast Relic, let 1 mana open to exile the GY
    T3: Cast any Goblin one at a time, leave 1 mana open all the time, we can win from there...

    In G2 and 3:

    T1: Mountain + Vial (Surgical in hand in back-up)
    T2: Tick Vial, drop Rishadan Port -> Port Badlands or Swamp at opponent's upkeep. PRAY! (always)
    T3: Vial @2, vial in Thalia, Wasteland opponent or cast Lackey or Relic/Cage -> Port Badlands or Swamp at opponent's upkeep, we can win from there...

    Some people recommend to board Aether Vial out, because it's too slow against them. I strongly disagree. Like mentioned in your article, Reanimator is very low on mana. If used in adequacy with Port and Wasteland, Vial lets us bring our Gobs while atrophying their manabase. Of course, it implies that there is something to back-up our mana-denial plan like a Surgical/Relic or Thalia coming.

    Guess what, even bringing Pyroblast is good if you see a blue spell, because it kills Tidespout Tyrant, counters Show&Tell in the Tin Fins version of the deck and deny their cantrips or counters.

    Before changing to a monored list for testing reasons, and replace Thalia with Thorn of Amethyst, the white splash with Thalia and Containment Priest gave very strong results against fast Reanimator. It was even a positive match-up. Priest was an auto-win and worked against Show & Tell & Dredge as well. She is a 2/2 creature and can be cast unexpectedly at instant speed. Sadly, weird cards testing dropped this ratio significantly until I changed back to the white splash which stabilized the situation.

    [to continue...]

  2. #962
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Personally, I don't quite agree with the building a fast clock plan. It can't be fast enough to a T1 Griselbrand. So, if we can't be faster, they must be slower. So, I prefer the full control plan and mana denial does helps that. Tonight, I will look for some Reanimators matches played on MTGO and put them on Youtube. I really would like to show how efficient mana denial is.

    To implement this plan, the number of answers must be increased. Here is a possible boarding plan:

    -3 Ringleaders, -3 Gempalm, -2 MWM (no more Gempalm), -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Siege-Gang, -1 Tarfire
    +3 Thalia, +2 Relic, +2 Pithing Needle (Griselbrand), +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Stingscourger, +1 Tin Street Hooligan (Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox)

    It looks a bit like overboarded, but it's fine. Ringleader is too slow and with 9 non goblins, he won't be great. We won't use our removals as well and MWM is unable to block the big flyers. One questionable choice is Tarfire. It's nice to think that some tarfires can finish them after a double Griselbrand activation, but it almost never happens. Siege-Gang will never be cast and a T1 Lackey to SG is also very rare. The choice of Relic over Cage is, because I want to hunger DRS or Snapcaster Mage and make Tarmogoyf smaller.

    Another card I could see to bring against Reanimator is Rest in Peace if you splash white. With Abrade and Ancient Grudge everywhere in Grixis lists at the moment, a non-artifact graveyard hate could improve our results globally. It's vulnerable only to Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip and Disenchant. It's not as fast as Cage against Reanimator, but it has text against other MU like Lands, Aggro/4C Loam, DRS/Snap decks.

    I will give it a try.

  3. #963
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    play reb you idiot

    In any hypothetical matchup that is so tempo-oriented that you would want to unsummon your opponent's land, Goblins doesn't have the means to apply pressure consistently enough to abuse this speed boost. In any matchup where this tempo doesn't matter you will be sad that you can't counter Show and Tell, TNN etc or that it's a card you can't hit with Ringleader.
    Absolutely. There is no way we can out tempo the best tempo decks with just bouncing a volcanic island. This is semantically not possible. In my opinion, it's 1 R wasted to do pretty nothing. Instead of bouncing lands, we can deny them to use their mana at key moments with Ports, we can counter their blue Creature with REB/Pyroblast and we can swing through them with Piledriver and its pro blue ability. Nothing to be scared of. I consider Grixis/UR Delver a favorable match-ups, and Czech Pile/4C even or more if we dodge Hymn to Tourach and meet not too many Kolaghan's chained with Snapcaster.

    Actually, the problem with Goblins is that we are so weak against combo. There are 3 approaches:

    1) ignore them and pray not to encounter them
    2) have very specific and quick answers like Cage, Mindbreak Trap, Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, Surgical Extraction, Cabal Therapy/Duress/Thoughtseize...
    3) have less efficient, but more versatile answers: Relic, REB/Pyroblast, Pithing needle, ...

    The last 2 choices will decrease our explosiveness and weakens our Ringleader, but give us a chance to survive as the first one doesn't. Pros of choice 2 is that it solves the problem on the spot if you are lucky enough to have it in your opening hand or draw it naturally. Cons are that you won't board these cards in none Combo MU, which means 7-8 of 10 games. Pros of choice 3 is quite the contrary, you can board these cards in a lot of annoying MU, but you need one more turn to survive.

    To be honest I don't play Red Blast either but Volcano is just bad imo, sure you can still Vindicate jace with it, but people shouldn't be leaving jace in their deck vs you after sideboarding anyway
    Do you mean Miracles people or 4-color people? For Miracles, I'll pretend I never read that Sorry, but a Miracle player would never board Jace out against Goblins, ever! He is just too important to brainstorm and put Terminus on top. Otherwise, how can they avoid that we don't kill them on T3 or 4?
    If you mean 4C, maybe they board Jace out, I don't know, but I think this would be wrong. A free Brainstorm every turn seems pretty sweet to me.

    I agree with your thoughts on Weirding
    I disagree
    Most of the time, Warren Weirding is a dead card with Baleful Strix, DRS and friends on board. If you managed to kill them before TNN enters, then you don't care about him anymore, because you have such an advantage on board that TNN won't be that relevant, exception done if equipped with Jitte. That's another story.

    I don't know how you guys feel about TNN right now, but with 4 Piledrivers, he should be the one to be scared. I find DRS much more annoying.

    I also agree with Fourbirr's reasoning for playing minimum 1 Chieftain maindeck (regardless of # of Warchief) but I don't agree that boarding in Pyrokinesis vs Lingering Souls makes sense.
    Chieftain really improved some hard to win games. Boarding Pyrokinesis against Nic Fit was done, because I saw four 1/1 flying tokens that could have killed me in 3 turns. I find Pyrokinesis very good against Lingering Souls. That's 2 red cards for 0 to kill 4 unblockable creatures. I like it.

    In other news, my first experience with RR Grenzo is that it gave me a land and Counterspell and then my opponent played Karakas...
    Yeah, but Grenzo can do better. It's like if we stopped Piledriver, because he does just 1 damage alone. 1GoblinLackey had some cool experiences with him like casting Kolaghan's, DRS, Brainstorm. I found hilarious to kill a burn player with its own Fireblast or Lightning Bolts. But in my opinion, he is too cute. I prefer some angry Piledrivers and Moggs.

  4. #964
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    There are some tricks: stingscouger is def better than weirding 90% of the time, but weirding dodges Iona. Graf cage is probablly the best card in the matchup, followed by surgical. A big reason why stingscouger is better is that once it echoes away, it essentially turns off exhume. Getting a Matron or sting into the yard is a great position to be in.
    Yup =)

  5. #965
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Here are some feedbacks about my recent Bloodmark Mentor and Ember Hauler testings.

    The conclusion is that they are not really what we need. At least, they had to be tested.

    Bloodmark Mentor made me smile a couple of times like:

    - D&T opponent controls a Mom and Thalia, 1 Piledriver and two 1/1 tokens attack. Thalia blocks PDD, Mom blocks a token and confidently give her protection from red. A vialed in Mentor at the end of blockers step messed with his plans to equip Thalia with Jitte.

    - Elves player with 5 1/1s on board (yeah, I survived thanks to Mindbreak Trap on Natural Order) and a Nettle Sentinel saw some innocent tokens attacking him and prepared for the trade. Again, before damages, Vial brought a Mentor and lets him with his only Sentinel which then ate a tarfire. With not Matron or Sharpshooter, it was a nice feeling.

    - Grixis: opponent leads with DRS, Delver and Gurmag. Never needed to deal with Young Pyro. In this match, Mentor was irrelevant, because Piledriver and Gempalm won all alone.

    There are too many x/2s or bigger creatures in the format that justifies playing Mentor. To draw him more, I had 2 MD and shaved 1 Piledriver + 1 MWM. The turbo lack was considerable, and I feel like the deck was really clunky.

    On Ember Hauler, the only satisfying time was when he killed a Gurmag like in textbook, with the help of Vial and a Mogg blocking it. But, almost every G2 and 3, I decided to board him out, because he was just uncastable. For RR, Grenzo is much better, or Instigator for those who like the aggro pile. In my opening hand, with Warchief and Lackey, I wish he was just something else. My manabase was not ready for him, too. Only 4 mountains was wrong to begin with, and I should have tried the monored version like I said, but...nah, even so, I never really wanted to cast him and it's anti-synergistic with Warchief. He has no place in a classic list and can't replace any other 2-drop goblin that we already have. At least now, after around 20 matches with him, I'm sure he is not the guy I want.

    Maybe some other had better experiences. Let us know!

  6. #966
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Now, on a more meta level, I would like to advocate for Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast

    I will not discuss the differences in this post. There are some articles on the net or posts discussing it on The Source, like here.

    First of all, here is a non-exhaustive list of what blue spells you get to counter, destroy or kill in Legacy with exactly 1 red mana.

    Creatures
    True-Name Nemesis
    Delver of Secrets
    Snapcaster Mage
    Vendilion Clique
    Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    Baleful Strix
    Parasitic Strix
    Misthollow Griffin
    Blighted Agent
    Stormchaser Mage
    Izzet Staticaster
    Tidespout Tyrant
    all Merfolks
    more...

    Planeswalker
    Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

    Spells
    Show and Tell
    Force of Will
    Counterspell
    Spell Pierce
    Brainstorm
    Ponder
    Stifle
    Standstill
    Manipulate Fate
    High Tide
    Hydroblast
    Blue Elemental Blast
    Careful Study
    Flusterstorm
    Gitaxian Probe
    Portent
    Daze lol
    more...

    Enchantments
    Counterbalance
    Back to Basics
    Omniscience
    more...

  7. #967
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    The domination of blue deck in the Legacy format is indisputable. At the last Eternal Week-end 2017 in Pittsburgh, 7 of 8 in the top 8 are blue. No comment. If now is not the time for REB/Pyroblast, I don't know when this is?

    Of course, it costs 1 red mana, but we are not forced to always keep 1 red open in case that something would happen that we don't like. It's just not possible. Hence, things that we don't like happens all the time in Magic anyway the moment we draw our 7 cards. The point is to let them happen less than you would like to. REB/Pyroblast allows it.

    Early game, having a Cavern or playing around Daze is crucial. At this moment, it's unrealistic to have mana open for REB/Pyroblast and we prefer to cast our threats to get rid of their removals. Nobody denies that. I experienced that REB/Pyroblast really shine at midgame. Countering a Snapcaster Mage staring at Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay or Hymn To Tourach is game changing. As is killing Leovold with 1 red mana, and spare Pyrokinesis or Gempalm for the rest of their board. Against TES/ANT, countering a Ponder after a Brainstorm is so much value.

    Midgame, we most likely have this exact one more mana open. On T4-5 and 4 manas, we don't always get to cast a Ringleader. I see more and more Hydroblast in Stoneblade, Food Griffin, Miracle, Merfolk, even some 4C Control and Sneak&Show. Most of the time, we can't protect a Warchief or Piledriver from Hydroblast, because we don't see it coming. But what's true for us is also true for them. Our blue opponents don't see REB/Pyroblast coming and it catches them off guard all the time.

    Against Omni-tell or Sneak&Show, one of our worst Match-ups, I'm really happy to have 1 red open if it can counter a S&T or a Ponder. They tend to keep a hand with cantrips and a FoW to be sure to cast S&T or Sneak Attack anyway. Against us, S&T players don't hesitate to counter our T1 Vial. Instead of playing around Daze, we play around FoW, wait T2, cast Cage/Needle Daze-proof AND Force-proof. I think it's a necessary back-up for one of our only out. With a Prospector in play, we even can cast it with no red open at all. The surprise effect is just remarkable. Our opponent never expect that. Show&Tell is so important for them to cast, but they don't expect a counter from us. So maybe, they will keep a hand without any counter. So, it gives us a certain advantage on how good is their opening 7.

    Another Pro of REB/Pyroblast right now is that we don't have to change our manabase.

    I really think that REB/PYroblast is good at the moment and your comments would be much appreciated.

  8. #968

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I can't deny that legacy is full of blue cards. The problem with playing REB just to trade with some random blue card (you are listing all of this stuff like Blighted Agent, Delver etc) is that there are plenty of Goblins that will also trade with these cards, and crucially Goblin cards can be drawn off Ringleader whereas REB cannot.

    You can't argue against Weirding for being 'dead' when your opponent has Baleful Strix or DRS, and then list Baleful Strix as a reason to be playing Red Blast. ("If you managed to kill them before TNN enters, then you don't care about him anymore." Kill them with what? A card like Warren Weirding maybe?) Listing all this stuff like counterspell that you can Red Blast is equally dumb, instead of Red Blasting their counter why not just play another Goblin. Putting cantrips in this list is equally stupid for the same reason.

    There ARE blue cards that CAN'T be traded for Goblins (like Show and Tell for example) and boarding in REB to fight these is fine. The problem is that if you need non-Goblin cards to fight on this axis then you can also play discard, which is less narrow (hits Sneak Attack, Dark Ritual/Infernal Tutor/Ad Naus, Reanimate, etc). If you insist on playing Mono R (for whatever reason, I'm not trying to imply this is 100% wrong but I don't think it's correct at the moment) then you probably still need some way to interact on the stack or with your opponent's hand and therefore Red Blast seems like it would be the only option.

    If miracles feels that they have to play Jace as a 4 mana Brainstorm to enable their removal, then you are not sad about this. Maybe saying your opponent should board it out was too extreme, my point is that the Goblins deck is already well equipped to deal with Jace, you don't need to be looking for specific cards to board in that answer it.

    You can't take the control role vs Rector Nic Fit because as soon as your opponent plays Cruel Reality/Splendor/Death's Hold you effectively lose on the spot. If you want to trade 2 cards for your opponent's 1 Souls they will be very happy about this because not only is it card advantage for them but that's 2 non-threat cards you threw away, which gives them more time to ramp and set up Rector. You can argue that Pyrokinesis helps the aggro plan by allowing you to attack through Souls, but if you really believed this then boarding out MWM and Piledriver doesn't make sense.

    The fact that Piledriver only attacks for 1 by itself is a very good reason to not play it. It's not correct to only evaluate cards by "What is the best thing it can possibly do" but also "how frequently does it achieve that thing", "how good is it in situations where I am behind vs situations where I am already winning", and so on.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 12-13-2017 at 03:25 AM.

  9. #969
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I can't deny that legacy is full of blue cards. The problem with playing REB just to trade with some random blue card (you are listing all of this stuff like Blighted Agent, Delver etc) is that there are plenty of Goblins that will also trade with these cards, and crucially Goblin cards can be drawn off Ringleader whereas REB cannot.
    This listing doesn't show some "random" blue cards. It shows blue cards played by the most popular decks in Legacy.

    I don't consider Ringleader essential against combo. As an example, let's take Show&Tell, since we board a lot of cards against it, Ringleader blanks pretty often. A 2/2 haste goblin is still a goblin, but with 4 manas, there are better play to do against Show&Tell. I feel really fine to have a REB waiting for their Show&Tell/Omniscience or even Ponder/BS if they struggle to find a red source for Sneak Attack or their cheat sorcery.

    We don't trade against Delver, almost never. Unflipped, they let the damages go through, exception done for Lackey. When flipped, we have Gempalm, Tarfire and Pyrokinesis left. It doesn't hurt to also have Pyroblast for its versatility.

    You can't argue against Weirding for being 'dead' when your opponent has Baleful Strix or DRS, and then list Baleful Strix as a reason to be playing Red Blast.
    Ok, let me clarify this. This list just lists blue cards in Legacy that matters to us and have a direct impact on the flow of the game. Basically, I agree that we can ignore most of the counters, because we have Cavern and Vial. We can also ignore blue Planeswalker, because chances are high that we hit them in the face. Same goes for blue creatures. We can ignore cantrips, because we have Matron and Ringleader. We can ignore blue enchantments, because Counterbalance, Standstill, Back to Basics don't really matter against us.

    Why play REB/Pyroblast?

    • Because I want to beat the best decks like 4C Control/Grixis/Stoneblade all the time.
    • Because it catches my opponent off guard. After the 1st one, we can bluff and let one red open if not needed. It makes their decision harder with a Sword of Damocles upon his head.


    When?
    • Essentially on the draw and when we switch to a full control role.


    We never play in Goldfish mode and developing our aggro plan like we would love to. Personally, I mainly play Pyroblast to counter a Snapcaster Mage, to "force" a key goblin at a critical moment, to stop the bleeding caused by Jace's +2 ability after a Terminus, to stun my opponent while he is struggling with cantrips to find his 4th color.

    ("If you managed to kill them before TNN enters, then you don't care about him anymore." Kill them with what? A card like Warren Weirding maybe?)
    No, that's not what I wrote. If we manage to kill DRS, Strix or whatever so that they only have TNN left, we don't really care to Warren Weirding him, because our position is fine. We have time to start building a big swing with Piledriver.

    Listing all this stuff like counterspell that you can Red Blast is equally dumb, instead of Red Blasting their counter why not just play another Goblin.
    If Goblins would win with Goblins only, then why do goblins players play non-goblins cards in every Goblin lists out there? With this approach, Death & Taxes would not play equipments, only humans. Elves would not play Abrupt Decay, only Elves, and so on...
    Playing a key goblin mid or late game is exactly what I want to do. It's so good when there is a REB/Pyroblast in back-up.

    Putting cantrips in this list is equally stupid for the same reason.
    It's not my intention to play REB//Pyroblast to counter cantrips, that's not what I wrote. Occasionnally, if we have it in hand for whatever reason we had to board it in, it can counter cantrips, sure.

    There ARE blue cards that CAN'T be traded for Goblins (like Show and Tell for example) and boarding in REB to fight these is fine. The problem is that if you need non-Goblin cards to fight on this axis then you can also play discard, which is less narrow (hits Sneak Attack, Dark Ritual/Infernal Tutor/Ad Naus, Reanimate, etc).
    Of course, discard is another strong approach. I just don't like the black splash. I tried it in the past, but looking for a black source screw me too many times while staring at these 2 beautiful Cabal Therapies. Some players are successful with black, so it's not my intention to discourage people not to try it. I prefer white, because Thalia can be cast with 5-6 fetch lands, 1 Plateau or 4 Caverns or 4 vials. That's 14-15 ways to bring her which make her very castable.

    If you insist on playing Mono R (for whatever reason, I'm not trying to imply this is 100% wrong but I don't think it's correct at the moment) then you probably still need some way to interact on the stack or with your opponent's hand and therefore Red Blast seems like it would be the only option.
    No, I'm not running monored. Older posts show that I splash white for Thalia, and green for Tin Street Hooligan. My current list is in my signature.

    If miracles feels that they have to play Jace as a 4 mana Brainstorm to enable their removal, then you are not sad about this. Maybe saying your opponent should board it out was too extreme, my point is that the Goblins deck is already well equipped to deal with Jace, you don't need to be looking for specific cards to board in that answer it.
    Well, it's not like Miracles, Stoneblade ore Standstill are auto-wins. Against a good player, it's still a scary match-up that can degenerate very quickly with Monastery Mentor. He is enough trouble to deal with at the first place. Our main goal is then to answer him and look for a Gempalm. Jace +2 wreck our draws. With a Mentor in play, we have one turn, maybe 2 to live before he becomes uncontrollable. I don't want Jace to bottom Gempalm or Pyrokinesis at this moment.

    You can't take the control role vs Rector Nic Fit because as soon as your opponent plays Cruel Reality/Splendor/Death's Hold you effectively lose on the spot. If you want to trade 2 cards for your opponent's 1 Souls they will be very happy about this because not only is it card advantage for them but that's 2 non-threat cards you threw away, which gives them more time to ramp and set up Rector. You can argue that Pyrokinesis helps the aggro plan by allowing you to attack through Souls but if you really believed this then boarding out MWM and Piledriver doesn't make sense.
    Good point here, I agree with you. Usually, I never board in Pyrokinesis against decks running Cabal Therapy like Jund. I should remember it for the next time against Nic Fit. This was wrong.

    The fact that Piledriver only attacks for 1 by itself is a very good reason to not play it. It's not correct to only evaluate cards by "What is the best thing it can possibly do" but also "how frequently does it achieve that thing", "how good is it in situations where I am behind vs situations where I am already winning", and so on.
    Now I understand why you seem so concerned by TNN. I cannot enough recommend to play the full Piledriver playset. The difference is just remarkable and I bet your TNN opponent will be the one to be scared, not you

    Speaking of bringing one more goblin instead of playing REB/Pyroblast, ok, let's bring Piledriver. Not longer than yesterday, my Stoneblade opponent scooped after bringing the 3rd Piledriver in T4. Someone said easy win?

    Guys, what are your other thoughts about REB/Pyroblast?

  10. #970

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Well like I said, I also dislike reb. I don't think that a weird Boomerang/REB split card is worth playing either. Remember every Volcano you draw is 1 less attacker which makes it much less likely that you will kill the opponent quickly. (You're also spending a mana on the Volcano on turn 1 or 2, so you are also hindering your own development). For this card to actually be scary your draw has to be like mountain x2 , lackey, warchief, volcano, Piledriver, plus 1 more Piledriver/MWM etc. A huge factor of how I evaluate this card is that I think REB is already very bad vs non-combo matchups and Volcano is probably even worse against combo because it can't counter a spell. If you really wanted to play a card-disadvantage tempo swing that only really makes sense as a follow up to a lackey in a nut-draw vs blue combo then Active Volcano might even be worse than Raze.

    Regarding Jace, he's very bad at protecting himself with the minus ability against both haste creatures and creatures with beneficial etb abilities, which Goblins is full of. Like any PW he's also not good against decks that can swarm the board. Your opponent might not have enough other threats in the 75 or they might think that they have enough sweepers that Jace is still a viable win condition, but in general I think this card is very bad against Goblins.
    It's not supposed to act like a reb. I introduced this card because I think that mana denial is probably our strongest strategy nowdays.
    It's not a 5th wasteland or a strange boomerang, it just solves blue threats and can make tempo advantage if needed..
    You just said that reb isn't good enough for combo decks, and that's why we play black in form of discards, since no goblin-list play only rebs as sideboard option for combo.
    Combined with wasteland or port It can make a vial tick to 3 before you even see a kholagan.
    But that's my opinion, Just suggesting you to give it a try against 4c or grixis (: (Bouncing their untapped lands in eot from nowere makes your turns really really spicy)

  11. #971

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    No, that's not what I wrote. If we manage to kill DRS, Strix or whatever so that they only have TNN left, we don't really care to Warren Weirding him, because our position is fine. We have time to start building a big swing with Piledriver.
    Sorry, this is what I mean: You seem to be happy to use removal on DRS and Strix, because you say that if your opponent has nothing left and plays TNN on an empty board then the TNN isn't scary. Therefore, why would you be sad about playing Warren Weirding (a removal) and killing a DRS or a Strix? If weirding acts as an answer to TNN also, then even better. Just because it won't always kill like a TNN 100% of the time doesn't mean the card is bad.

    If Goblins would win with Goblins only, then why do goblins players play non-goblins cards in every Goblin lists out there? With this approach, Death & Taxes would not play equipments, only humans. Elves would not play Abrupt Decay, only Elves, and so on...
    Playing a key goblin mid or late game is exactly what I want to do. It's so good when there is a REB/Pyroblast in back-up.
    DNT and Elves don't play a card that says 'look at the top 4 cards and put all equipments into your hand' or 'look at the top 4 and put all Elves in your hand'.

    Why do you think Goblins is potentially a viable deck in legacy? My reasoning is the following:

    Grixis Delver is the most popular legacy deck, we could call it the 'default' legacy deck playing 'normal' magic with a mix of creatures, interactive cards etc. Call this 'scissors'. Traditionally the way to beat 'normal' magic matchups is either to be a lot faster or to go a bit bigger. You can't go a lot faster than a FoW/Daze deck, so the response has been the rise of 4 color / Czech Pile, with slightly slower card advantage elements (Leovold, Hymn, Snapcaster etc). This is 'rock'. The sacrifice made by Czech Pile is that because of these more clunky elements it probably has a slightly worse fast combo matchup (it loses to 'paper').

    Obviously none of these matchups are too lopsided but the general trend is there.

    Where does Goblins fit in the metagame? The way I see it is that it's an even more 'Rocky' version of Czech Pile:
    A) Goblins SHOULD still be favoured against Delver decks for the same reason that Czech Pile is, the card advantage elements. (Admittedly Goblins will have a slightly harder time because Goblins is arguably too greedy here, I.e. there is more of a chance that Delver can win by 'going under' the Goblins player)
    B) Goblins SHOULD be favoured against Czech Pile and other midrange/control decks because it is more greedy than them (when I say greedy I mean that Goblins plays a high number of slow card-advantage cards like Matron and Ringleader etc)
    C) Goblins will have a bad matchup vs combo because it is too greedy (Goblins can't interact on the stack or with the opponent's hand so Ringleader/Matron advantage is irrelevant, and Legacy combo decks will go off before Goblins can race them)

    Goblins can only be a viable deck if both A and B are true and if the significance of C is minimized (either because you find a way to make the combo matchups close enough or because the metagame is at a point where combo is very unpopular).

    The reason why I disagree with boarding in REB in non-combo matchups is because you are nerfing the greedy part of the deck (Ringleader triggers), which is the whole reason to play the deck in the first place.

    The obvious counterargument to this point is "You just said that being too greedy is a liability vs Delver, so why shouldn't I try to reduce the card advantage aspect in favour of being more interactive?" (by boarding in REB and boarding out a Goblin). In that case, what are you boarding out? I still don't think you want to board out Ringleader because it's too strong for finding Gempalm and Tarfire (and creatures), so what other cards are worth boarding out over Pyroblast? From your list Probably Tin-Street and Prospector are the worst cards vs Delver and you can make a case for boarding out Lackey vs DRS decks. Maybe if you board in REB for these cards your win % will go up slightly. I'm not saying that's impossible, and if you do have REB in your sideboard and can increase your win percentage by boarding it in then of course you should do it. What I am wary of is that if people think that a ton of non-goblin cards need to be boarded in to have a favourable matchup vs Delver (I don't know what exactly you board in this matchup, but on your decklist page you mention boarding Relic vs DRS, and you also have multiple Pyroblasts and Thalias) then it shows that 'Premise A' isn't true and therefore why even play Goblins at all? It would only make sense in an extremely grindy attrition metagame (and I don't think Delver is going away anytime soon). I think you can change your maindeck to be better against Delver while still having a build that is good against control/midrange (only 2 Tarfire is a bit of a red flag to me tbh).

    In addition, I only mentioned Delver specifically because against the non-aggro non-combo blue decks bringing in REB is even worse. They give you enough time to get your card advantage engine online so you don't need to stop any early plays, you shouldn't be worried about counters with Vial and Cavern, maybe vs Snapcaster it's worth it? But again, you need to be careful what you are boarding out. You can stop Snap/Plow or Snap/K-Command with a REB but another way to not fall behind in the face of this removal is to hit another Goblin off your Ringleader, and having another goblin enables proactive plays that can be done in any situation (compared to sitting on a REB and waiting for the opponent to do something).

  12. #972
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I like a lot what you wrote. The example with rock-paper-scissors if nice. On the Aggro beats Control beats Combo topic, I found this map.

    Unfortunately, it does not take into account that we switch role all the time. Sometimes, even during the same turn depending of the interaction we meet. We find ourselves constantly torn between those roles.That's the famous "Who's the beatdown" question we should ask ourselves all the time.

    ...so what other cards are worth boarding out over Pyroblast? From your list Probably Tin-Street and Prospector are the worst cards vs Delver and you can make a case for boarding out Lackey vs DRS decks.
    Generally, I think it's a bad idea to board a 1-of and there must be a very good reason to do so. I was always punished after boarding out a Tin Street/Tuktuk against Grixis then met Null Rod or Needle. If I lost G1, I'll prefer to let TSH/Tuktuk in MD. Otherwise, I can be a little bit more careless and board him out.

    Against Grixis, I essentially bring Pyroblast on the draw and board like this:

    [On the draw]
    -4 Lackey
    +2 Pyroblast, +2 Relic

    [On the Play]
    -1 MWM, -1 Piledriver
    +2 Pyrokinesis

    There is still 24-25 goblins main deck which is more than enough to deal damages. I don't board

    Against 4C control/Czech Pile, I don't like to bring Pyrokinesis on the draw, because of the card disadvantage it occurs, especially after losing G1. Hymn or Toughtseize is already enough to strip my hand and I board like this:

    [On the draw]
    -4 Lackey, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Pyrokinesis
    +2 Pyroblast, +2 Relic, +2 Thalia (to delay them from Kolaghan's)

    [On the play]

    -1 Sharpshooter, -1 MWM, -1 Prospector
    +2 Pyrokinesis, +1 TSH/Tuktuk (Jitte)

    I think Sharpshooter sub-optimal in this matchup, because he would trigger Leovold all the time. Along with Sharpshooter, I also tend to board Prospector out.

    Maybe if you board in REB for these cards your win % will go up slightly.
    That's precisely what I try to explain. Since Pyroblast increased slightly my win % lately, I wanted to share my impressions with you guys and let you know why I think that REB/Pyroblast are good at the moment.

    No problem if it's not convincing. I convinced myself

  13. #973

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Hey fellow Gobbos,

    This next Sunday I'm participating in our local Legacy Masters Invitational. 16 Man tournament. So of course throughout the year most people know what decks will be there. I'm already set on my list and sideboard of which I will post after the tournament, however I thought it might be fun to see how others may construct their sideboard for the meta as I believe it will be.

    2 Elves
    1 Other Goblins Player
    2 Infect
    1 Lands
    1 Turbo Depths
    2 Storm
    1 Grixis Control
    1 U/R Delver
    1 Other Delver Variant
    1 4c Loam
    1 U/G Titan Post
    2 Unknown Decks

    Have fun, Warchiefs and Chieftains.

  14. #974

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    Hey fellow Gobbos,

    This next Sunday I'm participating in our local Legacy Masters Invitational. 16 Man tournament. So of course throughout the year most people know what decks will be there. I'm already set on my list and sideboard of which I will post after the tournament, however I thought it might be fun to see how others may construct their sideboard for the meta as I believe it will be.

    2 Elves
    1 Other Goblins Player
    2 Infect
    1 Lands
    1 Turbo Depths
    2 Storm
    1 Grixis Control
    1 U/R Delver
    1 Other Delver Variant
    1 4c Loam
    1 U/G Titan Post
    2 Unknown Decks

    Have fun, Warchiefs and Chieftains.
    Good luck at the event! Assuming you're on mono red like you normally are (based on prior forum posts), I'd probably go with something like this:
    2 Pyrokinesis
    3 Blood Moon
    3 Chalice
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Relic
    2 Surgical Extraction

    Blood Moons seem particularly good in your meta; Lands, Loam, Grixis Control, Turbo Depths, Post, and Infect all hate seeing blood moon. Multiple Stingscourgers also looks good here, so maybe a 2nd one in the board would be worth a slot.

    Chalice obviously helps with a lot of combo decks and Delver/Infect/Elves. I've found it's good against Lands on the play to turn off crop rotation, exploration, and gamble as well.

    Pithing Needle has a lot of targets here: Most of the cards in Lands/4c Loam/Turbo Depths/Post are worth needling, and it's great against Elves.

    Pyrokinesis cleans up a lot of the small creature strategies. Maybe should be 3 over the 3rd needle? Hard to say.

    Relic; don't want to be stuck without a way to nuke a graveyard. Just a generally applicable card in a lot of matchups. Not stellar, but fulfills an important role.

    Surgical; lights out for turbo depths, and can provide protection against a fast storm draw. Gives you some outs to a punishing fire loop.

    Relic is probably the weakest card in the board against the field here, but I think it's worth it. Other option would be to include some toolbox goblins.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Post DRS Goblins MTGO Leagues Only Data

  15. #975

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    Hey fellow Gobbos,

    This next Sunday I'm participating in our local Legacy Masters Invitational. 16 Man tournament. So of course throughout the year most people know what decks will be there. I'm already set on my list and sideboard of which I will post after the tournament, however I thought it might be fun to see how others may construct their sideboard for the meta as I believe it will be.

    2 Elves
    1 Other Goblins Player
    2 Infect
    1 Lands
    1 Turbo Depths
    2 Storm
    1 Grixis Control
    1 U/R Delver
    1 Other Delver Variant
    1 4c Loam
    1 U/G Titan Post
    2 Unknown Decks

    Have fun, Warchiefs and Chieftains.
    It really depends on your list, but I suggest:
    3 pyokinesis
    2 blood moons
    3 surgical extraction
    1 sharpshooter (should see your list)
    1 tuk tuk ("" "")
    2 needle
    3 thorn of amethyst/chalices (maybe chalices are better)

  16. #976
    Member
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    Hey fellow Gobbos,

    This next Sunday I'm participating in our local Legacy Masters Invitational. 16 Man tournament. So of course throughout the year most people know what decks will be there. I'm already set on my list and sideboard of which I will post after the tournament, however I thought it might be fun to see how others may construct their sideboard for the meta as I believe it will be.

    2 Elves
    1 Other Goblins Player
    2 Infect
    1 Lands
    1 Turbo Depths
    2 Storm
    1 Grixis Control
    1 U/R Delver
    1 Other Delver Variant
    1 4c Loam
    1 U/G Titan Post
    2 Unknown Decks

    Have fun, Warchiefs and Chieftains.
    Hi Quackers,

    Could you post the list you'll be running ?

    Envoyé de mon FP2 en utilisant Tapatalk

  17. #977

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Here is my mainboard.
    4 waste
    4 cavern
    4 ports
    10 mountain

    4 lackey
    4 matron
    4 ringleader
    4 warchief
    2 chieftain
    2 mwm
    1 siege gang
    1 krenko
    1 lightning crafter
    1 stingscourger
    1 chirurgeon
    1 tuk tuk
    1 Kiki-Jiki

    2 gempalm
    4 vial
    4 tarfire

  18. #978

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Just had a "kitchen table" BR Goblins Vs BR Reanimate with a friend and it wasnt that bad we played a total of 10 matches and of those 2 games without sideboard, and of course 2 easy wins for BR Reanimate, the other 8 with sideboards and Goblins went 6-2, making a positive record of 6-4.

    Two of the most important cards in the matches definitely where Wasteland and Port, too powerful due to few lands that they have.

    I side in: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Cabal therapy, 1 Stingscourger. Cabal therapy was only used and good in 1 match, i think if i dind t bring them won t do much difference.

    I sided out: 3 Tarfires, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Goblin chirurgeon, 1 Goblin Ringleador.

    Notes:
    Tuktuk Scrapper despite of being bad, destroyed a chrome mox, giving victory in long game.

    Tried Earwig Squad a few games but felt terrible.

    Sent from my Power_2 using Tapatalk

  19. #979
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    Here is my mainboard.
    4 waste
    4 cavern
    4 ports
    10 mountain

    4 lackey
    4 matron
    4 ringleader
    4 warchief
    2 chieftain
    2 mwm
    1 siege gang
    1 krenko
    1 lightning crafter
    1 stingscourger
    1 chirurgeon
    1 tuk tuk
    1 Kiki-Jiki

    2 gempalm
    4 vial
    4 tarfire
    Thank you for the list. I had to count it 3 times to be sure, but this list has 59 cards!

    I won't discuss the list here, since it wasn't the question, but it seems to have really slow starts and the curve is high.

    According to the list of decks you expect to encounter, half of them are creature decks:

    2 Elves
    1 Other Goblins Player
    2 Infect
    1 Grixis Control
    1 U/R Delver
    1 Other Delver Variant

    This list is not prepared to fight 2 elves and 2 infects decks. G1 is inevitably a loss. I definitely fill the last slot with Sharpshooter. He will helps you greatly against Grixis and the mirror, too.

    You'll need 3 Pyrokinesis in the 75. Having 1 main deck instead of 1 tarfire seems a must.

    If you expect 1 Lands, 1 Turbo Depths and 1 U/G Titan Post, you'll also need a second Stingscourger for sure.

    A possible sideboard could be:

    2 Pyrokinesis (if 1 MD, otherwise run 3)
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Grafdigger's Cage (Elves, Storm: Past in Flames)
    1 Tuktuk
    1 Stingscourger
    2 Pithing Needle
    3 Thorn of Amethyst

    If you plan to run Chalice of the Void @1 against Elves or Infect, all tarfires will be uncastable, when you'll need them.

    Against Storm, Chalice is not necessarily an auto win. Assuming you lost G1 and starts G2 on the play, a CotV @0 does not prevent your opponent to go off with Dark and Cabal Rituals. Assuming you survive T1, putting a Chalice on 1 does not prevent they go off with Lotus Petals, Chrome Mox and LED.

    TL;DR: If you can't cast Chalice on 1 on T1, don't play it.

    Capitalize on Surviving T1 with Surgical Extraction and continue with Thorn.

    Good luck for the event and represent Goblins ;-)

    Envoyé de mon FP2 en utilisant Tapatalk

  20. #980

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Fourbirr View Post
    Hi Menph,

    Thank you for sharing the link. I was playing a league on MTGO and didn't know it was streamed. Game 1, I was really slow, because this Nic Fit version was new to me and I didn't know how to interact. The version I know has Veteran Explorer, Siege Rhino, Tireless Tracker as creatures.

    After the mulligan, my hand was 2 lands, 2 lackeys, 1 Sharpshooter and 1 Piledriver, which is absolutely keepable. Normally, against a midrange deck like Nic Fit, my strategy is to not touch Veteran Explore, because they have to find a Therapy to sacrifice him. I think it's usually better to build a board, then rush them, because we don't want to let them cast things that we can't deal with on turn 4 or 5.

    The thing is that I was afraid by the double Cabal Therapy+Veteran sac which would have left me with pretty nothing in hand. I shouldn't have attacked Veteran on T2 without a Rishadan Port in backup to cut the black. Later on, chaining Academy Rector was too much that I could manage. G2, I didn't Matron for Tarfire, because I did not have it. G3, Therapy ripped my hand. Not much that I could do, anyway.

    My list was:

    23 lands
    4 Wastelands
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Cavern of Souls
    5 Fetches
    4 Mountain
    1 Taiga
    1 Plateau

    16 core
    4 Aether Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader

    3 Goblin Warchief
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    2 Mogg War Marshall
    1 Tin Street Hooligan
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Skirk Prospector
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    3 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter

    3 spells
    2 Tarfire
    1 Pyrokinesis

    Sideboard
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Pyrokinesis
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Tin Street Hooligan

    I boarded like this:

    -1 Skirk Prospector, -1 MWM, -1 Tarfire, -1 Lackey, -2 Piledriver, -1 Tin Street Hooligan
    +1 Stingscourger, +2 Pithing Needle (Pernicious Deed, Garruk), +2 Surgical Extraction (Green Sun Zenit, Veteran, Cabal Therapy, Academy Rector), +2 Pyrokinesis (Lingering Souls)

    A few games before this one, I played against the same Nic Fit list and won, thanks to the strategy applied like mentioned before. But it's a tough MU and I don't like it at all.
    Fourbirr, I have some advice for you for Nic Fit, coming from someone who used to play against it at my LGS.

    I actually think this matchup is pretty solid, particularly the version with rector that is popular now, probably better than the more P. Deed centered versions with giant monsters like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Grave Titan. Here are my boarding thoughts.

    -Board out Vial. It just gets destroyed by deed, and we really don't need the mana. Maintaining card advantage in the face of board wipes is essential.
    -connected to the last idea, we can really use the mana from vet explorer. I've willingly traded lackey into an explorer. We can abuse the mana ramp just as much as they can, maybe even more.
    -I don't think surgical is at all necessary. We really can outgrind nic fit. Once the lands all get pulled out by explorer and vial gets cut, Ringleader hits 3-4 gobs a LOT. I'd sooner board in Relic than Surgical because it's at least not card disadvantage and can turn off half of therapy or souls. RIP would be the best option here if you're splashing white.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Post DRS Goblins MTGO Leagues Only Data

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