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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #81
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by treach View Post
    Well, my tournament went miserably (2-4 with a BYE), faced A LOT of SFM decks (2x stoneblade, 1x d&t) and lost every time, albeit I did put a fight against stoneblades. It was either my bad luck, bad mulligan decisions and some misplays, or my opponents had the nuts (probably all of the above, eldrazi player admitted he got good draws, and I saw SFM on turn2 most of the time, d0h) but I have to play more since goblins really are not an easy deck to pilot. I also hate Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice. Our metagame was rather fair so next time I'm thinking about packing more shatter goblins in my main.

    Anyhow, I'm looking forward to more reports from you guys (more experienced pilots), especially decklists etc. I wrote a short and whiny report here, decklist included.
    A few words on the SFM matchups:
    I would start with reading the opening post - especially the paragraph about those MU. This will help you to understand the respective keycards of each deck, as well as how games usually go.
    Also, I would dare to say that your list is not as well-equipped for those MUs as it could be. Some points to consider:
    * due to the lack of Mogg War Marshal your Gempalm Incinerators will have harder time dealing 2 dmg compared to other lists. dealing 2 dmg to destroy SFM (or any other potential carrier of equipments) is crucial
    * the first point wouldn't necessarily be a problem if your list had enough reliable removal to make up for the "weak" Incinerators. Something like 4 Tarfire, or 2 Tarfire, 2 Pyrokinesis would do.
    * as SFM matchups tend to be very grindy, your list would profit from running more cards that support a grindy strategy - that is: more Gempalm Inicnerators, more Mogg War Marshals, multiple Krenko/Siege-Gang Commanders (>2).
    * In the absence of a reliable removal suite and grindy gear you could also take an alternative route and play 4 Goblin Chieftains, which help you to force you Lackeys and Piledrivers past your opponents defenses without suffering too many losses

    Some suggestions for changes to your list:
    * cut your toolbox: -1 Earwig Squad, -1 Chieftain, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Warping Wail / +1 Gempalm Incinerator, +3 Mogg War Marshal
    * if you are on G then Tin Street Hooligan is a better choice than Tuktuk Scrapper - the anti-synergy with Warchief is hardly ever relevant. Tuktuk Scrapper is a better choice if you are not splahing G , or if you are running Kiki-Jiki and/ or Warren Instigator. Also tuktuk scrapper is fine as a #2 copy of artifact hate (in case you like the flexibility that vial/lackey give you).
    * SB: #3 shatter Goblin seems to be too much, especially when you have Krosan Grips; Warping Wail and Warren Weirding don't seem to fit in very well. In what MUs do you use them?
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

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  2. #82

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Thanks for the feedback guys! I might try those changes next time for sure! Anyhow, I have Warping Wail and Warren Weirding for reanimator, ANT and Show and Tell (which are usually represented by a few players), but I didn't get to face any this time around. I find it scary if I have no answers so I stockpile on them, which is obviously a mistake.

    You are right about MWM and Gempalm, and it was last minute change that I removed all of my War Marshals (had 2), which ended up being a mistake. I'm not keen on mainboard pyro, but it could be a good decision since it can lead to blowouts. Thanks again, and I'm gonna read Goblin Tour Guide now :)

  3. #83
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    * SB: #3 shatter Goblin seems to be too much, especially when you have Krosan Grips; Warping Wail and Warren Weirding don't seem to fit in very well. In what MUs do you use them?
    I can confirm that the third shatter goblin never feels incredibly relevant to me. I'm always better off with a Pithing Needle, Wear // Tear, or Ancient Grudge in my board. It gives you another angle to come at them from as well.

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  4. #84
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Played in BoM trial today. Lost finals.

    R1 2-1 rug delver (no mongoose)
    R2 omni tell 0-2
    R3 sneak and show 2-0
    R4 infect 2-0
    R5 ID merfolk
    Semi 2-1 merfolk
    Finals rug delver (no mongoose)

    List and report later.
    -rob
    -rob

  5. #85

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Plated at GPT in Michigan today! 23 players total. Here is my list and a very brief report.
    Lands (23)
    11 Mountain
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern of Souls

    Artifacts (4)
    4 Aether Vial

    Instant (2)
    2 Pyrokinesis

    Creatures (31)
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    3 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Stingscourger

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Blood Moon
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Chalice of the Void
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Pyrokinesis

    I ended up going 4-1 in 5 Swiss rounds, winning against B/R Reanimator, Grixis Delver three times (twice in Swiss, once in Top 8), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG and only losing to Jund Loam (both in Swiss and then again in Top 4).

    I feel like there is literally no reason to even consider running Goblin Piledriver anymore. Driver dies to every single reasonable removal spell in the format, the protection isn't relevant nowadays and he doesn't buy time like Mogg War Marshal does. Gempalm Incinerator is absolutely insane and should be played as a 4-of in nearly every list going forward; Since Mogg War Marshal enables the 2 damage from the ability, it is hard to justify Piledriver in its slot.

    Three maindeck Krenko felt GREAT! He was an absolute bomb all day. I even managed to have one stolen by an opposing Ashiok (!!!) but managed to bounce it with Stingscourger. Sadly it was then Cabal Therapied.

    I'm considering running a full 4 Leyline of the Void as graveyard hate going forward. I got absolutely SMASHED by the Jund Loam deck and even though I won versus B/R reanimator, it seems like having Turn 0 interaction is realistically the best way to try to combat it.

    Any other questions let me know, I'm exhausted atm so this is all I can write :)

    I'll be attending GP Louisville - not sure if I'll go with this list or if I will try to get one together with Earwig Squads in it...

  6. #86
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    A bit of a mishmash of what was posted and what I like to do with goblins


    4 goblin ringleader
    4 goblin matron,
    4 goblin lackey,
    4 goblin chieftain,
    4 warren instigator
    2 gempalm incinerator
    2 krenko, mob boss
    1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
    1 siege-gang commander
    1 tuktuk scrapper
    1 goblin settler
    1 stingscourger
    3 tarfire
    4 aether vial
    3 chrome mox
    1 sylvan library
    2 pendelhaven
    3 wasteland
    2 bloodstained mire
    2 wooded foothills
    1 scalding tarn
    4 cavern of souls
    5 mountain
    1 taiga


    Sb

    2 carpet of flowers
    2 surgical extraction
    2 faerie macabre
    1 goblin sharpshooter
    1 siege-gang commander
    2 magus of the moon
    1 blood moon
    3 pyrokinesis
    1 umezawa's jitte

    Not sure if the green splash is worth it, but it makes pendelhaven more useful.

    I only drew Sylvan once, and it was forced. Mox wasn't extremely useful, but I did have a cool play twice of leading with wasteland + mox + tarfire their guy

    Maybe not the best list, but I had fun and it fit my playstyle.

    The last game in finals my opponent was on the play and mulligans to 6.

    I had a hand of 2 wasteland and some other lands + the Sylvan and a lackey.

    He had no basics in his deck so I went for it. Didn't really draw into anything useful and he drew brainstorm which fixed his mana. He sat on fetches until he hit two then double goyfed me and forced my Sylvan.


    Not having war Marshall is rough vs goyf, but maybe I can have some in the sb for next time. Would also consider running 2 Krosan grip for any problematic enchantments.
    -rob

  7. #87

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Pyre View Post
    Plated at GPT in Michigan today! 23 players total. Here is my list and a very brief report.
    Lands (23)
    11 Mountain
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern of Souls

    Artifacts (4)
    4 Aether Vial

    Instant (2)
    2 Pyrokinesis

    Creatures (31)
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    3 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Stingscourger

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Blood Moon
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Chalice of the Void
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Pyrokinesis

    I ended up going 4-1 in 5 Swiss rounds, winning against B/R Reanimator, Grixis Delver three times (twice in Swiss, once in Top 8), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG and only losing to Jund Loam (both in Swiss and then again in Top 4).

    I feel like there is literally no reason to even consider running Goblin Piledriver anymore. Driver dies to every single reasonable removal spell in the format, the protection isn't relevant nowadays and he doesn't buy time like Mogg War Marshal does. Gempalm Incinerator is absolutely insane and should be played as a 4-of in nearly every list going forward; Since Mogg War Marshal enables the 2 damage from the ability, it is hard to justify Piledriver in its slot.

    Three maindeck Krenko felt GREAT! He was an absolute bomb all day. I even managed to have one stolen by an opposing Ashiok (!!!) but managed to bounce it with Stingscourger. Sadly it was then Cabal Therapied.

    I'm considering running a full 4 Leyline of the Void as graveyard hate going forward. I got absolutely SMASHED by the Jund Loam deck and even though I won versus B/R reanimator, it seems like having Turn 0 interaction is realistically the best way to try to combat it.

    Any other questions let me know, I'm exhausted atm so this is all I can write :)

    I'll be attending GP Louisville - not sure if I'll go with this list or if I will try to get one together with Earwig Squads in it...
    I think I have to agree with you on the matter of Piledriver, Dan. He either gets chump-blocked, or removed without having any impact on the board state whatsoever. I've slowly gone from 4, to 3, to 2, 1, and now 0 and I rarely miss him. I make up for the damage output by playing a second chieftain. Chieftain + Krenko is an absolutely game-winning combo, and almost no deck can survive more than 1 activation, so they either have to right then and there, or get swamped.

    I took your list and made some adjustments. I've continued to try Smuggler's Copter to good effect, though I've cut the number down to 2, which I think is the correct number if you're looking to try out Copter. I feel like 3 is good in terms of frequency of drawing it, but you often feel like you have to board one out in SB games just to make room, so I brought it to a permanent 2. I also added a pendelhaven, which I think should be a staple of the war marshal-heavy lists. I feel like an overlooked strength of the mono-red version that you have is the all basic red sources without any fetches. Starving deathrites can be surprisingly effective on occasion, and having your red sources be wasteland-proof helps a lot. I am skeptical of Siege-Gang though. He never does quite enough for me unless you're putting him in off of lackey. I much prefer running Sharpshooter. I also noticed you aren't running prospector, which I find pretty important in the matchups that involve equipment (avoiding jitte counters or batterskull lifelink is very relevant). His ability to be a kind of ritual with war marshal and krenko is also pretty powerful. What made you not run him?

  8. #88
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Pyre View Post
    Plated at GPT in Michigan today! 23 players total. Here is my list and a very brief report.
    Lands (23)
    11 Mountain
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern of Souls

    Artifacts (4)
    4 Aether Vial

    Instant (2)
    2 Pyrokinesis

    Creatures (31)
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    3 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Stingscourger

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Blood Moon
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Chalice of the Void
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Pyrokinesis

    I ended up going 4-1 in 5 Swiss rounds, winning against B/R Reanimator, Grixis Delver three times (twice in Swiss, once in Top 8), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG and only losing to Jund Loam (both in Swiss and then again in Top 4).

    I feel like there is literally no reason to even consider running Goblin Piledriver anymore. Driver dies to every single reasonable removal spell in the format, the protection isn't relevant nowadays and he doesn't buy time like Mogg War Marshal does. Gempalm Incinerator is absolutely insane and should be played as a 4-of in nearly every list going forward; Since Mogg War Marshal enables the 2 damage from the ability, it is hard to justify Piledriver in its slot.

    Three maindeck Krenko felt GREAT! He was an absolute bomb all day. I even managed to have one stolen by an opposing Ashiok (!!!) but managed to bounce it with Stingscourger. Sadly it was then Cabal Therapied.

    I'm considering running a full 4 Leyline of the Void as graveyard hate going forward. I got absolutely SMASHED by the Jund Loam deck and even though I won versus B/R reanimator, it seems like having Turn 0 interaction is realistically the best way to try to combat it.

    Any other questions let me know, I'm exhausted atm so this is all I can write :)

    I'll be attending GP Louisville - not sure if I'll go with this list or if I will try to get one together with Earwig Squads in it...
    So, you did try the list just as you said you would.
    Why did you decide against Sylvan Libraty, and more importantly, against Skirk Prospector? Especially the latter provides a lot of flexibility (e.g. using MWM as Dark Rituals under a Warchief, or turning Krenko into a mana-Factory).
    Last edited by GoboLord; 12-11-2016 at 06:22 PM.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  9. #89

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    I took your list and made some adjustments. I've continued to try Smuggler's Copter to good effect, though I've cut the number down to 2, which I think is the correct number if you're looking to try out Copter. I feel like 3 is good in terms of frequency of drawing it, but you often feel like you have to board one out in SB games just to make room, so I brought it to a permanent 2. I also added a pendelhaven, which I think should be a staple of the war marshal-heavy lists. I feel like an overlooked strength of the mono-red version that you have is the all basic red sources without any fetches. Starving deathrites can be surprisingly effective on occasion, and having your red sources be wasteland-proof helps a lot. I am skeptical of Siege-Gang though. He never does quite enough for me unless you're putting him in off of lackey. I much prefer running Sharpshooter. I also noticed you aren't running prospector, which I find pretty important in the matchups that involve equipment (avoiding jitte counters or batterskull lifelink is very relevant). His ability to be a kind of ritual with war marshal and krenko is also pretty powerful. What made you not run him?
    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    So, you did try the list just as you said you would.
    Why did you decide against Sylvan Libraty, and more importantly, against Skirk Prospector? Especially the latter provides a lot of flexibility (e.g. using MWM as Dark Rituals under a Warchief, or turning Krenko into a mana-Factory).
    Regarding Sylvan Library - I really don't like needlessly exposing myself to Wasteland just to play Tin Street Hooligan and in this case Sylvan Library as well. I played R/g Goblins when Omnitell was still the best deck for the Krosan Grip but since that is no longer a popular deck I've eschewed splashing for the time being. I think for a local FNM event sometime I may try the green splash again for Library though since there aren't huge stakes on the line there :)

    For Skirk Prospector, it was mostly because I had removed all of the Goblin Sharpshooters and needed to find slots for the sideboard cards. Moving Siege-Gang from the side to the main required removing Skirk. While I appreciate the idea behind generating mana with Mogg + Skirk, I'd rather have my singleton Skirk be a powerful Siege-Gang. Having Siege-Gang main means that I also don't have to dedicate a slot to Sharpshooter, either. So - two free slots! I opted for a Chieftain, as pairing him with Mogg/Krenko is absurd, and the Siege-Gang.

    Siege-Gang singlehandedly won the game versus Death and Taxes for me where Skirk/Sharpshooter would not have otherwise. Also, while I appreciate Skirk's ability to dodge Batterskull/Jitte - the real problem in that matchup is Sword of Fire and Ice. Our mainboard 1-of artifact removal HAS to be dedicated to the initial Jitte or Batterskull - but then the second SFM always hits the board with the SOFI that we can no longer beat. It's also the reason I opted for Tuktuk Scrappers over Tin-Street - I'm starting to like the multiplicative artifact destruction effect and I may in fact start boarding in a 2nd copy for 3 total in these matchups - breaking 2 artifacts at once was absolutely insane (hit two Revokers on both my Krenko and Siege-Gang at the same time for the win).

    Either way, I don't think that Skirk/Sharpshooter (as I played them in my list prior to this) or Sylvan Library/Tin Street are inherently WRONG, I just wanted to use a more stable and streamlined list for the event since there were byes on the line. If I manage to make an FNM, I will try them out before GP Louisville.

    Are any other Chieftains going to attend? I'd love to see you there :)

  10. #90
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    P.Diddy continues to polarise as always, but can we please refrain from saying he is bad because he dies to removal? Please point me to the card in our deck that doesn't die to plow or bolt.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook View Post
    Either way, fuck wizards, RIP Shortcake.

    #FreeNedleeds

  11. #91

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    P.Diddy continues to polarise as always, but can we please refrain from saying he is bad because he dies to removal? Please point me to the card in our deck that doesn't die to plow or bolt.
    He dies to removal without having done anything

    Lackey is 1 mana for 1 mana or better removal spell
    Matron is +1 cards
    Ringleader is +0 to +4 Cards
    Mogg War Marshal is +1.5 Cards
    Siege-Gang Commander is +1.5(ish) Cards
    Krenko is literal remove or die compared to Piledriver
    Hastelords are remove or be overwhelmed, especially with Krenko.

    You can chump block a Piledriver, but you can't chump block two turns worth of Krenko activations.

    All hail our Boss, Krenko! :)

  12. #92
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @gobolordL I was giving your list some play testing against a small amount of our paper proxy gauntlet and had a few notes.

    Ideally your list wants to commit a Krenko, perhaps a second through a kill spell, and win with it. In that vein Chieftain makes sense on paper, but I found that the lack of cost reduction on Warchief was too big a burden to lose comparatively. If I have a Krenko, then it did not matter how big the tokens were, I had a lot of them, and therefor am winning. When I was behind it didn't do much to pull me back, as all I want to do when behind was to commit cards to the board. I think If I played a list like yours again it would be with a 4/1 or 3/2 split in favor of Warchief, as the ancillary of Chieftain is still good just a tad more than niche scenarios.

    3 Krenko's felt like 1 too many for me, even with him as my primary game plan. Perhaps it's just my play style, with waiting and baiting, but I never felt like I needed the third, and actually felt it as a liability against Karakas decks (which is probably why you had Siege-Gang in the board). In addition to lowering the curve by 1 or 2. I'd probably be dropping one of him on this game plan in the future.

    ---

    @mistercakes
    Good job, looking forward to it. Feels good to place high.

    I would not play a list without at least 2 Mogg War Marshal right now. I'm actually trying to figure out how to fit more in my own list. I Strongly advise you don't drop him from the main, he's kind of the mid-game glue. I'd drop a finisher and something else, or perhaps 2 finisher's in your place for them. (I actually prefer Kiki-Jiki in WInstigator lists for reference though.)

    I'm still not sold on Carpet of Flowers. My brain simply is telling me that it is a crutch style answer and not actually resolving the issue, but I'm willing to admit a probable bias here.

    ---

    @Dan Pyre
    Good job as well, goblins doing well all over it seems. There was a period in my career of this deck where I ran 4 Leylines, and that period lasted about 5 months. The exact scenario you are listing that you want it for, is the exact reason I stopped running it. I loathe Leyline in the fair match-ups, it's super awkward in a match that goes to a grind, as it is usually the deadest available draw in the mid game, even if you have black mana. Just my opinion on that piece.

    I think I still prefer the traditional list, so I don't sync with your sentiments on Piledriver, but I do agree that GoboLords list felt like it was ignoring that gameplan anyway, so it matters less. The traditional list just has a better clock overall in my experiences, and I value that type of push.

    ---

    I've been broke due to lack of a Job, but I recently started up one again, so maybe sometime soon I could get to play again in a competitive setting that isn't play testing. Here's to hoping. I'm getting that itch to play with something on the line.

    If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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  13. #93
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    @gobolordL I was giving your list some play testing against a small amount of our paper proxy gauntlet and had a few notes.

    Ideally your list wants to commit a Krenko, perhaps a second through a kill spell, and win with it. In that vein Chieftain makes sense on paper, but I found that the lack of cost reduction on Warchief was too big a burden to lose comparatively. If I have a Krenko, then it did not matter how big the tokens were, I had a lot of them, and therefor am winning. When I was behind it didn't do much to pull me back, as all I want to do when behind was to commit cards to the board. I think If I played a list like yours again it would be with a 4/1 or 3/2 split in favor of Warchief, as the ancillary of Chieftain is still good just a tad more than niche scenarios.

    3 Krenko's felt like 1 too many for me, even with him as my primary game plan. Perhaps it's just my play style, with waiting and baiting, but I never felt like I needed the third, and actually felt it as a liability against Karakas decks (which is probably why you had Siege-Gang in the board). In addition to lowering the curve by 1 or 2. I'd probably be dropping one of him on this game plan in the future.

    ---

    @mistercakes
    Good job, looking forward to it. Feels good to place high.

    I would not play a list without at least 2 Mogg War Marshal right now. I'm actually trying to figure out how to fit more in my own list. I Strongly advise you don't drop him from the main, he's kind of the mid-game glue. I'd drop a finisher and something else, or perhaps 2 finisher's in your place for them. (I actually prefer Kiki-Jiki in WInstigator lists for reference though.)

    I'm still not sold on Carpet of Flowers. My brain simply is telling me that it is a crutch style answer and not actually resolving the issue, but I'm willing to admit a probable bias here.

    ---

    @Dan Pyre
    Good job as well, goblins doing well all over it seems. There was a period in my career of this deck where I ran 4 Leylines, and that period lasted about 5 months. The exact scenario you are listing that you want it for, is the exact reason I stopped running it. I loathe Leyline in the fair match-ups, it's super awkward in a match that goes to a grind, as it is usually the deadest available draw in the mid game, even if you have black mana. Just my opinion on that piece.

    I think I still prefer the traditional list, so I don't sync with your sentiments on Piledriver, but I do agree that GoboLords list felt like it was ignoring that gameplan anyway, so it matters less. The traditional list just has a better clock overall in my experiences, and I value that type of push.

    ---

    I've been broke due to lack of a Job, but I recently started up one again, so maybe sometime soon I could get to play again in a competitive setting that isn't play testing. Here's to hoping. I'm getting that itch to play with something on the line.
    Thanks for sharing you insights.

    I agree with you on Warchief and Chieftain here. The cost reduction of Warchief is absolutely crucial, while one or two Chieftains could be nice in niche situations. I would go with a 4/1 split if anything, cutting Sylvan Library or Skirk Prospector.
    Karakas is indeed a real bummer (unless you have Vial @4 + Warchief on the table, but thats a huge "unless") and thats one of the reasons for playing SGC in the board (the other one being just overloading grindy decks with finisher goblins). I don't think 3 copies of Krenko are too much tough, as I'm doing this primarily for the chances of drawing one naturally. You don't really need 3 copies if this was only as a backup in case the first one gets removed. Still, I was thinking about wether a 2-1 split between Krenko and SGC could do, but that puts you into those awkward Vial-counter-situations again. Also I think the vulerability of 3 Krenkos opposed to a 2-1 split is more pronounced in sideboarded matches because a) that puts Pithiung Needle and Phyrexian Revoker on the map and b) by that time your opponent might have noticed what you are up to. I would say (all estimated, no real data, but only an example to make my point clearer): 100% of all opponents will see the first Krenko coming, 30% will expect the second one and 0% will expect the third copy, which is definitely a huge plus, considering the powerlevel of the card that "you didn't see coming".
    Therefore I'm willing to accept the few situations where Karakas and Kreko actually interact in pre-board games as corner cases (you do have Wastelands and Port yourself after all).
    Krenko is a shitty replacement for Piledriver in pretty much every MU where Piledriver shines. You want to have Piledriver whenever you want a quick and dirty victory. That just not happening with the list I last played because it has very hard times winning before turn 5. As I already stated, that list is the most controllish one I ever built and I didn't get punished for it only because I dodged every form of fast combo deck on that event. So, yes this list is totally ignoring the "fast-kill" route and I can't say it felt good. Not only are combo decks more scary, but can't you shrug off a True-Names Nemesis anymore, because it will sometimes just flat out race you.
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  14. #94
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I was looking through decklists on tcdecks and checking out the top winners of recent big tournaments. I was specifically looking to see how many Anti-Combo cards decks were running in the maindeck. It was pretty enlightening. Miracles runs about 10 counterspell cards. Grixis Pyromancer runs 10-12 counters main plus 2-4 discard spells. Eldrazi runs 12-14 cards that either counter spells, make them more expensive, or removes cards from opponents hands. Even a deck like Jund or Aggro Loam that seems weak to combo will actually run 4-6 Discard spells + 2-4 Lilliana, giving them 6-10 anti-combo cards overall. Even Combo decks are packed with anti-combo cards. Show n Tell runs 8 counterspells, ANT runs 6 discard spells. The new Br Reanimator decks packs 8 discard spells + 4 Chancellors. The only decks I saw that conspicuously DON'T run anti-combo cards are Elves and Lands. Lands isn't a big contender right now, and Elves has the ability to T3 consistently enough that it can beat combo pre-board that way.

    I always knew Goblins was weak to combo, but it was never so clear as to just how far behind the field we are. I always just chalked that up to us being a creature heavy deck that's strong against fair decks. But compare us to another deck that's creature dense, Death and Taxes, and it's clear just how much weaker we are against combo than them. Between the Thalias, Prelates and Revokers DnT is running 12-16+ combo hating creatures pre-board.

    We run 0 combo hating goblins generally. Sometimes we run 1-3 Earwig squad.

    It seems that we are very low on our anti-combo cards in the maindeck, and it seems a little unreasonable that Goblins hasn't evolved to run more. We can easily run 1-3 MD Earwig Squad which is obviously a very strong card against a lot of combo decks (though not all), and it's weaknesses against some combo decks is more than made up for by it almost single-handedly destroying Miracles. Since Earwig is literally the only anti-combo goblin we should probably be running discard with the B splash as well. Cabal Therapy seems like the obvious card to run since we have so many bodies to spare for the flashback, especially Mogg War Marshal. I know Sandro has had a lot of success mainboarding 2 CTs in the past. I think the number could be a little higher, maybe 3-4. The top performing decks right now are running a bare-minimum of 6 anti-combo cards in the maindeck.

    I mocked up a quick list that I think I'll try out the next time I bring the gobbos to a tourney...

    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    4 Warchief
    4 Matron
    4 Ringleader

    6 Removal

    3 Earwig Squad
    3 Cabal Therapy

    4-6 Flex

    22-24 Lands

    Are the removal and flex slots sufficient?

    What do the other Goblin pilots out there think?
    Last edited by jrw1985; 12-15-2016 at 05:40 PM.

  15. #95
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Well, if you are going to play Cabal Therapy wouldn't you play it alongside MWM? That would make your removal-suit also pretty obvious, right? So, to fill in the gaps:

    3-4 Incinerator
    1-2 Pyrokinesis
    0-1 Warren Weirding

    2-3 Mogg War Marshal
    1-2 Goblin Piledriver (or drop it for something like 1 Krenko and one Chieftain)

    I don't know if it's sufficient, though.

    Ow, and aren't you one card short?

    EDIT: Lands plays Sphere of Resistance or Chalice of the Void. Alongside Mox D, and paired with manadenial, it can be fast enough. Still, Lands is indeed very weak against Combo in general.
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  16. #96
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    Well, if you are going to play Cabal Therapy wouldn't you play it alongside MWM? That would make your removal-suit also pretty obvious, right? So, to fill in the gaps:

    3-4 Incinerator
    1-2 Pyrokinesis
    0-1 Warren Weirding

    2-3 Mogg War Marshal
    1-2 Goblin Piledriver (or drop it for something like 1 Krenko and one Chieftain)

    I don't know if it's sufficient, though.

    Ow, and aren't you one card short?

    EDIT: Lands plays Sphere of Resistance or Chalice of the Void. Alongside Mox D, and paired with manadenial, it can be fast enough. Still, Lands is indeed very weak against Combo in general.
    Fixed! Thanks. 4-6 Flex spots depending on whether you're running 22-24 lands.

  17. #97
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Good approach, Jon. The old question remains whether you want to take that route and make a miserable MU slightly less miserable. The package of Earwig Squad and Therapy would be the way to go as they are most flexible.
    @ Chatto: definitely wouldnt run Kinesis in that list with so "many" non-red and non-creature spells. MWM is definitely tje way to go though.
    I played a similar list a while back. Need to see if I can find it some where (pretty sure it would be connect es to a tournament report)
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  18. #98
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    Good approach, Jon. The old question remains whether you want to take that route and make a miserable MU slightly less miserable. The package of Earwig Squad and Therapy would be the way to go as they are most flexible.
    @ Chatto: definitely wouldnt run Kinesis in that list with so "many" non-red and non-creature spells. MWM is definitely tje way to go though.
    I played a similar list a while back. Need to see if I can find it some where (pretty sure it would be connect es to a tournament report)
    I think you are right. Depending on the manabase you could swap them for Dismember? Or just good ol' Tarfire.
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    It appears I will be heading the PTQ's in Kentucky, USA, in two weeks.

    I'm curious about something. Ever since the introduction of Recruiter of the Guard, I've felt D&T slip from a 50% matchup to about a 40% matchup. What are your guy's plan for the match since the changes?

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  20. #100
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    No changes to be honest. The MU is still about Mother, Equipments and Flying beaters vs. Removal, Pithing Needle and cardadvantage. I find Pithing Needle the strongest card in this MU followed by Pkinesis. And the MU definitely feels positive still.
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