[Deck] Vial Goblins

[kombatkiwi]

Fourbirr, I have some advice for you for Nic Fit, coming from someone who used to play against it at my LGS.

I actually think this matchup is pretty solid, particularly the version with rector that is popular now, probably better than the more P. Deed centered versions with giant monsters like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Grave Titan. Here are my boarding thoughts.

-Board out Vial. It just gets destroyed by deed, and we really don't need the mana. Maintaining card advantage in the face of board wipes is essential.
-connected to the last idea, we can really use the mana from vet explorer. I've willingly traded lackey into an explorer. We can abuse the mana ramp just as much as they can, maybe even more.
-I don't think surgical is at all necessary. We really can outgrind nic fit. Once the lands all get pulled out by explorer and vial gets cut, Ringleader hits 3-4 gobs a LOT. I'd sooner board in Relic than Surgical because it's at least not card disadvantage and can turn off half of therapy or souls. RIP would be the best option here if you're splashing white.

As I said in a recent post, you can't outgrind Rector Fit because Goblins is never going to beat an Overwhelming Splendor. Therefore, Surgical is very important. (You can respond to the Rector trigger by Extracting the Rector, which causes the ability to fizzle and also ensures your opponent won't play any more Rectors for the rest of the game).

For example Elspeth -3 doesn't even kill any Goblins and the 3 Soldiers can die to Sharpshooter. Most of the time I would much rather my opponent be trying to resolve 6 mana Elspeth than 5 mana Curse of Death's Hold, for example. I agree that boarding out vial is probably right.

[Fourbirr]

Dear 1GoblinLackey, thanks for sharing some tips.

Fourbirr, I have some advice for you for Nic Fit, coming from someone who used to play against it at my LGS.

I actually think this matchup is pretty solid, particularly the version with rector that is popular now, probably better than the more P. Deed centered versions with giant monsters like Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Grave Titan. Here are my boarding thoughts.

-Board out Vial. It just gets destroyed by deed, and we really don't need the mana. Maintaining card advantage in the face of board wipes is essential.
-connected to the last idea, we can really use the mana from vet explorer. I've willingly traded lackey into an explorer. We can abuse the mana ramp just as much as they can, maybe even more.

I must admit I have never tried to board out Vial. I like to have a Vial to cheat goblins while denying opponent's manabase with Port. I feel that Vial is never disappointing or slow, even against fast combo like Reanimator, TES/ANT, Elves or Infect. At the moment, it's not an option, especially against midrange decks like Nic Fit.

I don't think surgical is at all necessary. We really can outgrind nic fit. Once the lands all get pulled out by explorer and vial gets cut, Ringleader hits 3-4 gobs a LOT. I'd sooner board in Relic than Surgical because it's at least not card disadvantage and can turn off half of therapy or souls. RIP would be the best option here if you're splashing white.

Hmmm, interesting. I think quite the contrary. Actually, my last Nic Fit Rector opponent seemed to fear Surgical a lot. A Surgical on Veteran, Rector or Cabal Therapy is a real knock-out for them. This stops their mana acceleration, respectively their disruption. It gives us more time to cast our team until they are still trying to look for lands to cast their fatties.

Your proposed tactic to hit veteran in the face with Lackey would work real nice in a list with a lot of basics. Sadly, splashing green and white force to be very careful in the mana sequencing, because there are only 3-4 basics. Bringing duals and colorless lands first, so that a trade with veteran brings the basics profitably. In a monored build, I guess it's less of a problem. We probably get 2 goblins off a veteran trade. Next time, I'll rather let the veteran live, and cast/vial as many gobs as possible to later overwhelm them.

For the white splash, the Rest in Peace solution is quite appealing, but it's double edged if they have the Helm of Obedience combo, like in this list of a guy I know. Therefore, Relic seems safer.

For you who splash black, Cabal or Thoughtseize must be quite juicy. G2, T1 Cabal naming Veteran, Surgical him. Yummy!

I realized that kombatkiwi advice NOT to board in Pyrokinesis is absolutely right. This MU should be approached like a Jund or BUG/4C Control. Cabal+Veteran with Hymn to Tourach hurt too much. If we discard our gobs, it's worth.

EDIT [22.12.2017 6 AM GMT+1]
Actually, Lingering Souls is a job for Sharpshooter. There is no need for Pyrokinesis.

[1GoblinLackey]

As I said in a recent post, you can't outgrind Rector Fit because Goblins is never going to beat an Overwhelming Splendor. Therefore, Surgical is very important. (You can respond to the Rector trigger by Extracting the Rector, which causes the ability to fizzle and also ensures your opponent won't play any more Rectors for the rest of the game).

For example Elspeth -3 doesn't even kill any Goblins and the 3 Soldiers can die to Sharpshooter. Most of the time I would much rather my opponent be trying to resolve 6 mana Elspeth than 5 mana Curse of Death's Hold, for example. I agree that boarding out vial is probably right.

I hadn't realized that Surgical fizzles rector, that's important to know. My concern had been that if you're not running discard, how do you get a rector in the graveyard to surgical unless it's been killed, at which point they've probably won anyway. I see that surgical dodges that. However, I would at least note that I probably wouldn't surgical anything else but the rectors, like the Lingering Souls that Fourbirr mentioned.

Elspeth is a huge problem most of the time, unless you already have a huge board and can swing past the 3 1/1s to kill her, or sharpshooter as you mentioned. The problem is that she's really hard to get to attack profitably and kill. Eventually she emblems, and we probably can't beat that.

I played online last night against Rector Nic Fit twice, 2-0 4-0 in matches/games. Game 1 match 1 was the closest, with my opponent giving me the edict curse on t4 or so by hardcasting it, and my draw was kinda bad up till that point. However, they honestly don't do a whole ton sometimes once they get their mana set up. I forced them to pop a deed to wipe my board (taking 4 lingering souls tokens with them). Earwig Squad stripped the rest of the scary enchantments out of their deck (in the other match, my opponent just scooped to squad). The edict curse was starting to put me in an awkward spot since I just needed more creatures to swing at them but I didn't see anything like Mogg War Marshal to make the edict bad. I ended up Warren Weirding myself to turn an earwig squad into 2 1/1s. I had a pendelhaven too, so it was still 2 damage a turn after the edict. Double tarfire to face finished them off. I only saw 1 ringleader and 0 matrons all game, and my opponent had 2 deeds. That alone tells me the matchup can't be that bad.

Here's the list I was playing for reference:
16 Core (Lackey, Matron, Ringleader, Vial)
3 Warchief
3 Piledriver
3 Gempalm
3 Tarfire
2 Mwm
1 Sharpshooter
1 Earwig
1 Krenko
1 Chirurgeon
1 Chieftain
1 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
1 Tuktuk
1 Weirding

23 Lands
6 Fetches
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Badlands
1 Karakas
1 Pendelhaven

Sideboard
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Minister of Pain
1 Stingscourger
1 Pithing Needle
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrade (has since been turned into another surgical)

61 card maindeck, I honestly like everyone 1-of and think they play a certain purpose, and so aren't cuttable.

I sided like this;
+3 Therapy
+1 Needle
+1 K Command
+1 Stingscourger

-4 Aether Vial
-1 Weirding
-1 Tarfire

I'd probably take out another tarfire for a surgical knowing about the rector thing.

My other matches last night online;
2-1 ANT
1-2 BR Reanimator (got nut drawn game 3 on the draw. Despite my great hand of lands including Karakas, Stingscourger, and Relic, my opp thoughtseized me, then reanimated a Sire of Insanity all on t1. RIP me).
2-0 Rector Nic Fit
2-0 Rector Nic Fit
2-0 Ravager Affinity (basically a shopless vintage workshop deck)

[Fourbirr]

I hadn't realized that Surgical fizzles rector, that's important to know. My concern had been that if you're not running discard, how do you get a rector in the graveyard to surgical unless it's been killed, at which point they've probably won anyway. I see that surgical dodges that. However, I would at least note that I probably wouldn't surgical anything else but the rectors, like the Lingering Souls that Fourbirr mentioned.

Huh?! I read my posts about the Nic Fit coverage just to check, but I never mentioned that. I mentioned to surgical Rector AND Veteran.

Earwig Squad on their enchantments? Ouch, it hurts. Well done!

[1GoblinLackey]

Huh?! I read my posts about the Nic Fit coverage just to check, but I never mentioned that. I mentioned to surgical Rector AND Veteran.

Earwig Squad on their enchantments? Ouch, it hurts. Well done!

Sorry mate, didn’t mean to put words in your mouth. I was thinking of this post “1 Stingscourger, +2 Pithing Needle (Pernicious Deed, Garruk), +2 Surgical Extraction (Green Sun Zenit, Veteran, Cabal Therapy, Academy Rector), +2 Pyrokinesis (Lingering Souls)”

Combined the lingering souls with the other surgical targets in my head. My bad.

[Fourbirr]

No problem ;-)

[Cringe]

I played a very early version of nyxfit and all i can say is that I hoped and prayed that my opponent didn’t know how rector worked. I can see how this would be a decent matchup for us. You can force them into early deeds and surgical the rectors. Their deck is built around running out rectors on turn 4 at the latest, 80% of the time. I think grabbing the EWS early may be great for us to grab those enchants as early as possible. They help us with board state through the land ramp which feels good to Matron on turn one if we are drawing, to grab the EWS for turn 2? Though they tend to run 6 discard and 6 removal. I plan on proxy for this deck to test against in the near future.

How do you guys feel about blade matchups? I tend to get stomped by them. My 3 testing partners swear that I just insanely bad luck all the time. But there are constantly games where I get 3-6 goblins on board and keep the pressure and then invite easily wiped up and then quickly facing Tnn and a jitte.

[1GoblinLackey]

I played a very early version of nyxfit and all i can say is that I hoped and prayed that my opponent didn’t know how rector worked. I can see how this would be a decent matchup for us. You can force them into early deeds and surgical the rectors. Their deck is built around running out rectors on turn 4 at the latest, 80% of the time. I think grabbing the EWS early may be great for us to grab those enchants as early as possible. They help us with board state through the land ramp which feels good to Matron on turn one if we are drawing, to grab the EWS for turn 2? Though they tend to run 6 discard and 6 removal. I plan on proxy for this deck to test against in the near future.

How do you guys feel about blade matchups? I tend to get stomped by them. My 3 testing partners swear that I just insanely bad luck all the time. But there are constantly games where I get 3-6 goblins on board and keep the pressure and then invite easily wiped up and then quickly facing Tnn and a jitte.

I agree with your evaluation of the Nyx Fit matchup. So much of their deck is devoted to getting the enchantments online that they just don't do anything at all if you can stop that. Lingering souls doesn't matter to us if you can force them to pop deeds. Earwig is absolutely huge in the matchup, and is usually fast enough.

I also struggle with blade matchups, and would love to hear some advice on them. I have a couple sideboard cards to assist a great deal (Minister of Pain to wipe multiple TNNs is huge, and K command is a big deal in the grind while also destroying equipment), but every time I see a blade decklist now I just think "well, here's every card goblins has ever been afraid of".

[Cringe]

In my experience of blade decks I find that it really is a hard matchup no matter what we do. They bring in some more hate which just makes our efforts seem terrible at best. I find that having 4 Tarfire and 3 Gempalm help but Gempalm is actually slower in the early game than we want here . If they aren’t running black then our matrons are golden to grab a Tuk tuk early. If you Tarfire their stoneforges with Gempalm backup (they WILL always have counters lol) then work towards a Cavern for the tuk tuk, we are sitting pretty. I’m going to get some more games in but I really feel like a slow hand of removal and some shatter affects helps. Sometimes I build a board state for 3 turns against a TNN and have the shatter plan in my hand. But it never seems to help towards a win because they just always have the removal/equipment with protection. I’m heavily considering keeping tuk tuk main and having 2 abraids in the side. I don’t like the idea all that much. But at some point I think I may have to bite the bullet and go down to the 28-30 Goblin range in G2 to make sure I can handle their board state.

Side note: inexperienced blue players keep force and daze in. Most blue decks have the tools in their deck to deal with our board. Experienced players will usually bring in more heat at the cost of counters because of our deck style. Sadly, those inexperienced players will see that one card that needs countered and counter it if we don’t have a Vial or Cavern, and always leave a bad taste in my mouth lol. One test partner I have likes to keep them in because I only run 2 caverns as of now. But I think we can be more aggressive in games 2 and 3 so long as we keep a Matron in hand for a turn 4 or 5 shatter Goblin.

Through all the test games I play I’m leaning towards blade decks being our worst matchup as a whole games 1-3. Combo makes us wish we were playing a different deck but after sideboard I feel that most of my combo games go 45-55 or 50-50

EDIT: Thinking back to my comment on blue players. Not all blue decks side out all counters. They don’t want to see a turn one Vial lol. As much as we’d love to have the turn one

[Fourbirr]

I played a very early version of nyxfit and all i can say is that I hoped and prayed that my opponent didn’t know how rector worked. I can see how this would be a decent matchup for us. You can force them into early deeds and surgical the rectors. Their deck is built around running out rectors on turn 4 at the latest, 80% of the time. I think grabbing the EWS early may be great for us to grab those enchants as early as possible. They help us with board state through the land ramp which feels good to Matron on turn one if we are drawing, to grab the EWS for turn 2? Though they tend to run 6 discard and 6 removal. I plan on proxy for this deck to test against in the near future.

Thank you for the tip Cringe. Not running EWS, I'm usually always very careful for this trade, because their 4 CMC spells are stronger than us. Until now, my strategy was to cast one goblin at a time, build a board state, not attack to let their Veteran alive and swing later for 10+.

So, against a Nic Fit Rector list, would you recommend to hit or trade an early Veteran Explorer to get the lands that will favor us more than them, because they are usually very slow and we can ramp them?

[Fourbirr]

How do you guys feel about blade matchups? I tend to get stomped by them. My 3 testing partners swear that I just insanely bad luck all the time. But there are constantly games where I get 3-6 goblins on board and keep the pressure and then invite easily wiped up and then quickly facing Tnn and a jitte.

I guess your 3 testing partners are probably right. These losses were possibly due to bad luck or decisions. Stoneblade is a very favorable matchups for goblins. It's almost even with Miracles. I find Deathblade a little tougher, because we have also to solve DRS. Snapcaster Mage in Stoneblade is less of a problem, because Piledriver don't care about him. TNN is a thing, but unequipped, we can race it. Piledriver shines here, but a shatter artifacts is key.

You mentioned Tuktuk, well, If Stoneblade gives you trouble, why not try Tin Street? Tin Street will come 2 turns earlier. With 4 manas, we cast Piledriver, Tin Street AND answer Jitte in the same turn. That's a huge difference in a game where we have to race.

[Cringe]

Thank you for the tip Cringe. Not running EWS, I'm usually always very careful for this trade, because their 4 CMC spells are stronger than us. Until now, my strategy was to cast one goblin at a time, build a board state, not attack to let their Veteran alive and swing later for 10+.

So, against a Nic Fit Rector list, would you recommend to hit or trade an early Veteran Explorer to get the lands that will favor us more than them, because they are usually very slow and we can ramp them?

Well , curses I believe it is called, is really weird to read. I feel that if we are in the play, we turn one lackey (say we have a decent hand) we can feel free to drop land turn two and tar fire or use removal for the land, but we don’t want to trade with them because if it’s passed turn 2 they can use the lands to play against us and then we need to catch up. The way I see this is that they are going to get to 4 lands. They need a sac outlet for the rector. So if we use their mana excelerator to build a board then we are looking good. We can slow there sac outlets with wasteland but I’m not too sure what they run other than that and Cabal Therapy. But I’ll stick to saying that we can use their lands a little better than they can early on. They have to see rector, they have to have an outlet. And some games we can just make a speedy board and get them. Games 2 and 3 look great with BR build.

As for tin TSH. I’m not sure how to take this card. I don’t want to splash green because I’m really feeling the BR right now. After boarding I get hand hate and more shatter. I’m still heavily considering 2 abraids I’m the side

[Cringe]

I plan on testing against this deck as soon as I can. It’s different from when I played it but the idea is generally the same for them. Their enchants cause us to scoop it up. But I don’t know how truly slow they are. I can see siege gang winning us games. I’m sure we just have to play explosive here and hope they don’t get rolling too early. Building a big board state may be good here. Abusing their explorers on our turn 4-6 for extra land to finish them off may be valuable but they do have board wipes. Hand hate hurts them since they no longer run starfield of nyx to recur enchants. Playing safe after game 1 can allow ya to see their hand in splashing black and that helps in so many ways since we can see what threats they’ll be holding. I’ve always seen this as a combo control deck. I was playing against a delver variant and had a turn 2 Nissa Vital force turn two with a turn three humility to lock the game in. They can be fast, and they can pose a board state that calls for removal from us that will push them towards a win. But at that point that’s magic and that’s looking at it hypothetically. Just looking at their deck and our play style leads me to believe we have a good matchup here. I’ll report after I do some testing in the near future.

Let’s also bow our heads and be thankful for miracles pushing through top bannings to put that ugly deck back on the market. It’s been rough in me with all these DRS and I’ll take an easy game any day hahaha

[menph]

I plan on testing against this deck as soon as I can. It’s different from when I played it but the idea is generally the same for them. Their enchants cause us to scoop it up. But I don’t know how truly slow they are. I can see siege gang winning us games. I’m sure we just have to play explosive here and hope they don’t get rolling too early. Building a big board state may be good here. Abusing their explorers on our turn 4-6 for extra land to finish them off may be valuable but they do have board wipes. Hand hate hurts them since they no longer run starfield of nyx to recur enchants. Playing safe after game 1 can allow ya to see their hand in splashing black and that helps in so many ways since we can see what threats they’ll be holding. I’ve always seen this as a combo control deck. I was playing against a delver variant and had a turn 2 Nissa Vital force turn two with a turn three humility to lock the game in. They can be fast, and they can pose a board state that calls for removal from us that will push them towards a win. But at that point that’s magic and that’s looking at it hypothetically. Just looking at their deck and our play style leads me to believe we have a good matchup here. I’ll report after I do some testing in the near future.

Let’s also bow our heads and be thankful for miracles pushing through top bannings to put that ugly deck back on the market. It’s been rough in me with all these DRS and I’ll take an easy game any day hahaha

I tried the deck but I have to test against it , on paper I think this is a hard MU for us.

Playing explosive is the best way but I don't know if building a big board is the key against Nyx Fit since they can wipe everything with deed. Anyway is also easy to have key cards discarded by therapy, so keep a ringleader in hand could be risky too. Needle on deed? maybe, but will slow us down a lot. so revoker could be better,but looks pretty meh.. They have decay, garruk and the - x/-x one.
If we can stop rector's trigger with surgical, or other GY hate, we have to keep in mind that scary enchantments cmc is 5, 7 and 8 and try to attack their mana with ports and wasteland to prevent them from hardcasting. For this reason playing surgical on veteran explorer in the first turns seems reasonable to buy us some turns and save surgical from discard spells.
Maybe keep them below 5 mana could be hard but we can try to play against Curse of death's Hold with 2/2's and chieftains.

I don't see SGC as strong option here because if they land Curse we have no 1/1s to trow and if they land the "big humility" he will be a useless 1/1 itself.
I see piledriver chief and rabblmaster very well positioned instead.

I think mono R version is very weak in this MU even if the number of basics available is higher.
Splashing white looks awesome to me since give us access to both Rip and disenchant. Also black looks great for EW squad removing enchantments.

Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

[Cringe]

Not sure where I was coming from with the siege gang comment, but I agree that he isn’t as good as other finishers we have.

The just spoiled a Mogg Fanatic with haste. Oh boy!

[Stevestamopz]

Not sure where I was coming from with the siege gang comment, but I agree that he isn’t as good as other finishers we have.

If not Siege-Gang, what is the better finisher?

The card literally does everything Goblins wants:
- Army in a can
- provides reach
- allows for the fastest possible kills with Lackey/Driver/Siege Gang starts.

[Dan Pyre]

If not Siege-Gang, what is the better finisher?

The card literally does everything Goblins wants:
- Army in a can
- provides reach
- allows for the fastest possible kills with Lackey/Driver/Siege Gang starts.

I don't think I've played a game without SGC in awhile. Just having one copy in the maindeck is so important for early wins, late gas or reach. I'd say that Krenko is a better finisher (especially in Chieftain builds) but SGC has far, far more utility. I'm of the opinion that most lists should run at least 1 of either of these, if not both.

TL;DR stroking steve's opinion off

[menph]

If not Siege-Gang, what is the better finisher?

The card literally does everything Goblins wants:
- Army in a can
- provides reach
- allows for the fastest possible kills with Lackey/Driver/Siege Gang starts.

we are talking about Nyx fit MU.
SGC is my all time favourite finisher goblin too, but he doesn't shine in this particular MU imho.
of course IF lackey connects and IF you have SGC in your opening hand he's a bomb even here, but as 1-of how frequently this can happen??

[Cringe]

If not Siege-Gang, what is the better finisher?

The card literally does everything Goblins wants:
- Army in a can
- provides reach
- allows for the fastest possible kills with Lackey/Driver/Siege Gang starts.

Gang Bang is my favorite finisher. He’s just hard to get by with in this matchup. In any matchup if you can turn one lackey into a turn 2 siege gang then he’s by far the best we have. But that’s a hot sex move that we don’t get to see often. Against curses you want a EWS asap.

[1GoblinLackey]

I suppose I'll provide the other side to the finisher debate; I personally keep trying to find excuses to play siege gang, because it's obviously very powerful with a lot of utility, but I typically don't play him anymore in my lists. This is for a couple reasons;

-5 mana is too much. Period; I'm really trying to cut the curve down in my goblins lists as much as possible, and I think the inclusion of a 5 drop is just not feasible anymore in legacy. Besides Nic Fit, what other deck tries to cast 5 drops? Miracles siding in Keranos for the mirror or other nonsense like that? Besides, they have every card selection spell imaginable, whereas we have nothing. In the majority of games, siege gang is gonna rot in your hand, either never coming down or being too little too late. Lackeying out your siege gang is a pipe dream against the fair decks most of the time, and against the combo decks, it's not even that good compared to warchief, or matroning for a hate piece like stingscourger or earwig. We cannot pressure combo decks fast enough to actually kill them before the go off without disruption, so I'd rather spend my mana on discard or hate pieces, and using my lackey to just drop whatever's left and kill them that way.

-He's too fragile; Siege Gang can come on board, then die immediately without getting any value whatsoever. Before, this wasn't a huge deal, because you still have the army that came with him. However, the 3 1/1s just aren't anything without him, thanks to the fact that there are virtually no 1 toughness creatures in legacy to trade with in combat. Those 1/1s are just gonna get stonewalled. Imagine you're facing a gurmag angler and you have a siege gang. Even if he survives, you have to invest 6 additional mana to kill their 1/1. 11 mana to 1. That is just not a mana trade we can reasonably make. Krenko does a way better job here, since he can just make infinite dudes to make a 5/5 irrelevant. Also, I think it's worth noting that a 2/2 is a lot smaller than a 3/3. Siege Gang dies to K command, Forked Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, 1 Jitte hit of counters, 1 SoFI hit, Pyroclasm/Kozilek's Return/Rough//Tumble, and so on. The only card that Krenko dies to that Siege Gang doesn't is Fatal Push, which while relevant, isn't a huge deal compared to all the others. Playing Karakas has also made Krenko better for me (as well a Chirurgeon to protect him), so maybe this add bias to my point of view.

-Siege gang is too fair; He doesn't generate infinite creatures like Krenko eventually will at an exponential rate, and he doesn't create (virtually) infinite value like Kiki-Jiki will. I'd probably sooner play Kiki than Siege Gang at this point. There have been so many games where Krenko's ability to just keep generating creatures just by sitting on the table is invaluable when trying to battle past huge monsters like Angler and Goyf. Kiki does a similar job by letting you overrun your opponent with value, and his haste mitigates the vulnerabilities siege gang has at 2 toughness. Siege gang and his troop of 1/1s just don't do enough.


The only meta situation where I would significantly prefer Siege Gang is if there's a whole bunch of D&T and Ensnaring Bridge decks. Siege Gang is definitely good for killing walkers out of nowhere, or lobbing creatures over a moat.

A less relevant point, but still a part of my thought process-

-Basically useless with a Leovold on board.