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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #1061

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    Hey guys, after thinking it through, let's go ahead and have a discord.

    https://discord.gg/2jd7WBf

    I intentionally didn't add anything special to the discord. I figured I should see how it grows before adding anything.


    I'm also working on an update to the Primer as it's getting dated.
    Awesome! I’ll hop in there this evening

  2. #1062

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    Reading through the thread I remembered a theory of deck building. If you bring in a card more than 50% of the time then it should be in the main deck... Any card under 50% I believe should theoretically be in the sideboard for the most consistent results.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Finkel
    The other interesting matchup is Ramp. For most of this deck’s existence, its win rate versus Ramp hovered around 5%. The addition of 1 Infinite Obliteration to the main deck turned an almost unwinnable matchup into one where you’re a favorite. A Dark Petition with spell mastery on turn 5 can eliminate all their World Breakers, and that’s usually fast enough (though not always). Then you can Seasons Past before Ulamog comes out, and you have enough removal and discard to take out the Atarkas and Chandras. Most of the other silver bullets stay in the sideboard, but Infinite Obliteration swings the match win percentage so much that it merits inclusion in the main deck.
    You can make a similar argument for Scrapper and how much % it gives you vs decks that have Stoneforge in them, which in my opinion warrants playing it main even though it isn't great in more than 50% of matchups. Not accounting for the relative strength of different cards apart from a simple binary of good/bad is where your analysis falls flat (assuming I even agree with your assessment of what cards are good against certain decks).

    Another thing you haven't included is a factor of what matchups are good/bad. A certain deck might be 20% of the meta but if you feel that Goblins is 70% to win this matchup do we weight cards that are good in that matchup higher, or lower? For example:

    No lightning crafter because Piledriver costs less and is good against close to the same percentage of the meta.
    What is the justification for exchanging a 2 drop attacker with a 4 mana removal? Even though they are apparently good against the same percentage of decks they are obviously not good against the same types of deck. Which type of deck are you trying to beat, and why?

    Or why not play another Siege Gang instead if it's good against 95% of the format and Piledriver is only at 70%? Is it because Siege-Gang is too expensive? Can we add more lands to enable Siege Gang then? Maybe we also need more removal so that our Lackeys can connect and we can deploy Siege-Gang? Should the lists start 4x Lackey 4x Instigator 4x Siege Gang? I mean if it's beating 95% of the format maybe we need to be thinking about this card more! Add some Kiki Jikis too because thats the next best thing at 87%!!!1!

    Or more realistically the percentages you came up with are actually pretty meaningless and you are just using rough numbers to justify what you intuit to work well, so why even bother with the stats at all?

    Finally:
    1 Goblin Piledriver does a lot of similar things in the matchups I wanted earwig for. Namely speeding up the clock, but also applying pressure without having to commit too much to the board.
    Have you actually read the textbox on this card? If you're going to play 1 copy of something in your SB that doesn't do anything except attack please just TRY Rabblemaster...

  3. #1063
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I have a really hard time cutting Siege-Gang personally. His board impact at it's worse is: "Must Answer, before he untaps" and we all know his best.

    Additionally I find lists with less than 2 Piledrivers lackluster in the finishing department, despite the number of bombs I run. I'll take 3-4 Piledrivers over 2 and 2 more bombs pretty much every time. It's really hard to get a better rate on the crack back power of Piledriver for his cost.

    On Rabblemaster: I think his power level is strong enough, but I run into his downside mattering far more than I ever want it to. Interestingly, he's at his best in goblin-light decks. He's almost a better t2 play over Blood Moon in Mogg Stompy though.

    If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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  4. #1064

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    I have a really hard time cutting Siege-Gang personally. His board impact at it's worse is: "Must Answer, before he untaps" and we all know his best.

    Additionally I find lists with less than 2 Piledrivers lackluster in the finishing department, despite the number of bombs I run. I'll take 3-4 Piledrivers over 2 and 2 more bombs pretty much every time. It's really hard to get a better rate on the crack back power of Piledriver for his cost.

    On Rabblemaster: I think his power level is strong enough, but I run into his downside mattering far more than I ever want it to. Interestingly, he's at his best in goblin-light decks. He's almost a better t2 play over Blood Moon in Mogg Stompy though.
    When I was suggesting cutting Piledriver for Siege Gang I was being facetious

    I agree that Rabblemaster appears to be best in Goblin-light decks, but this is because in these other decks where Rabblemaster is good (Red stompy in legacy or RB Midrange / Jund in modern or basically any of the decks Rabblemaster was used in Standard) there is no other Goblin card they are interested in playing. It's not at its best in these decks BECAUSE they have no other goblins in them.

    What does Rabblemaster do that is good? Quickly builds a board of attacking tokens, plus itself which attacks for a large amount.
    When is Rabblemaster bad? When the opponent can freely block the tokens, or the Rabblemaster, or any other Goblin that is forced to attack.

    So in what kind of decks are Rabblemaster viable?
    1) The opponent can't cast anything to slow it down so its just a relatively cheap creature that kills them super fast (Any deck with moon or chalice in it)
    2) Even if the opponent is allowed to cast things, they can't easily block because your deck is playing a lot of disruption (like discard or removal in the jund-style decks)
    3) You aren't playing (m)any goblins that have a high value on the battlefield that you don't want forced into combat (like Grenzo for example)
    4) You're a super aggressive red aggro deck with aggro 1- and 2-drops so Rabblemaster on the battlefield is probably scary even if the opponent has a blocker

    Decks like #4 were mostly how Rabble was used in standard but this kind of strategy isn't even viable in modern, let alone legacy, because the anti-creature spells are much stronger (Terminus lul) and so are the things that are likely to be blocking it. It's not what I am suggesting.

    Goblins (in this thread at least) isn't trying to be deck #1, so that's not relevant either.

    But can you build Goblins in a way that satisfies #2 and #3? I think so. Of course you are sad if your Warchief has to go smash itself into an angler but what if instead of the Warchief you had a Warren Weirding, or a Lightning Crafter, or you have a Chirurgeon so you can still safely attack with anything? If you just splash 1 Rabble into your stock list that's full of things that can be awkward to attack with (Like Lords, or Piledrivers, or Grenzos) then it probably won't seem very good because this 'drawback' will come up more often, but that's not how I would go about playing it.

    This appears to contradict my suggestion for the Quackers guy to play 1 copy in the board, but I think I've already made a case in the past for why I think Warchief and Piledriver aren't very good so I'm not going to repeat myself making such 'extreme' suggestions to change like 8-10 cards. But at least Rabble seems to exactly fit the bill of "I want 1 sideboard attacker that applies a lot of pressure without committing too many resources" (at least way more so than Piledriver) and if more people try it and like it maybe they will get on board with changing their build more to accommodate more copies.

  5. #1065
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Hi fellow Warchiefs,

    Finished 4-1 tonight on MTGO with the classic list.



    2-1 Turbo Depth
    Wastelands and a fast clock handle it G1. G2, he T1 Lage. G3, Vial T1, he Inquisition Kozilek me, T2 Needle on Stage, he T2 Hexmage, Vial at 2, he panicked and sac hexmage to remove vial counters. T3, I cast a lackey and drop Wasteland. T4 dropped 2nd Wasteland. That's it.

    2-1 Infect
    Tarfire, Pyrokinesis, Gempalm, trades, chump blocks and needle on Inkmoth Nexus that never came. Some angry Piledriver took it.

    0-2 New Miracles !!!! Opponent was very strong and I drew too many lands
    G1, Opponent was drew all he needed, while my draws were too slow. He finally puts Gideon, Ally of Zendikar quite early and he removed my gobs with StP/Snap which seals the deal, not much to say 😔. G2, close, but he finally Entreat for 5 Angels late game, while I was topdecking lands after lands for...7 turns!!

    2-1 New Miracles, the revenge
    Classic Miracles strategy. This time, I could use 2 Vials and Warchief/Piledriver, while he removed my Lackeys first.

    2-0 BUG Delver
    G1, I concentrated every removals on Shaman and then could have time to remove the rest. G2, opponent got savagely Wastelanded twice in a row, then DRS tarfired and Delver ate Pyrokinesis. He had only 2 wastelands while 2 Vials were ticking. I had Port and Cavern, but decide not to give him a reason to wasteland something. At some point, he was cumulating cards and his GY has 5 cards. I guess he was going to bring an Angler or Tombstalker, so I cracked Relic EOT and drew a Chieftain. He then was cleaning up his hands for 4 turns. Mine had 2 Gempalms and 1 Tarfire, just in case. Vial at 3 brings Chieftain, then Piledriver, then Warchief. GG

    The list of tonight was:

    Lands:
    5 fetches
    4 Mountains
    4 Caverns
    4 Wastelands
    3 Ports
    1 Plateau
    1 Taiga
    1 Karakas

    4 Vial, Lackey, Ringleader, Matron, Piledriver
    3 Warchief
    1 Chieftain
    2 MWM
    3 Gempalms
    2 Tarfires
    1 Pyrokinesis

    1 Stingscourger
    1 Prospector
    1 TSH
    1 Sharpshooter
    1 SGC

    SB:
    3 Thalia
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Surgical
    2 Relic
    2 Needles
    2 Pyrokinesis
    1 Stingscourger
    1 TSH

    I liked having Pyrokinesis AND Chieftain main deck. They did both great job everytime I had them. I never missed the 4th Gempalm or 4th Warchief for now. Some may prefer 4 Tarfires, but I prefer 3 Gempalms to compensate the Pyrokinesis card DISadvantage. And I can't bare having Tarfire countered. At least Gempalm is pretty safe now, since there isn't many Stifle around. I didn't miss the 4th Port, too, because Karakas replaced it and in another match against Turbo Depth yesterday, it saved my a$$.

    Since a couple of weeks, I find this main deck pretty solid. Of course it's slower than Winstigator, but if you like aggro-grindy-control games, this list is for you, because it's very versatile and can adapt in many situations.

  6. #1066
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    It really warms the cockles of my heart seeing Depths lose repeatedly to Goblins.

    Nice run man, gratz!

    On Rabblemaster- Goblins has always been a deck of nonbos and poor synergy. Warchief + Hooligan, 4 Port/4 Waste in a deck full of RR spells etc. Just run with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  7. #1067
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Thanks Steve,

    Watching your last run convince me to give the league another try. With all these Storm, Turbo Depth and Sneak & Show decks around, that was rather without great expectation.

  8. #1068
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I have some thoughts regarding splashes since people were talking about it.

    There are two main issues with splashing both black and white. The first is that many of the cards you often want to splash for are cards you want in the same matchups. This makes fetching awkward as you might easily end up drawing two of your sideboard cards but only be able to cast one, or you might have to fetch before you draw and risk getting it wrong half the time.
    The second problem is that the main draw to splashing white, Thalia, is much better when you also have Rishadan Port, and port is difficult to fit into lists splashing black because of the color requirements of your discard spells.
    That's not to say that you cannot utilize both colors at the same time however. Some cards, like Earwig Squad and Wear // Tear, require much smaller concessions to the manabase, and thus are much easier to splash even as a third color. In my current list for example I could easily cut a Pendelhaven for a Plateau and have the mana base work out if I wanted to play Wear // Tear in my sideboard in order to have access to enchantment removal.

  9. #1069

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I got around to watching Steve's 4-1 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vuU...e=youtu.be&t=7
    Note that a lot of the audio got muted presumably for the licensed music so if you discussed some of these plays out loud it got cut, I tried to check the chat at points where I thought interesting things were happening

    8:00 Maindeck Settler seems like it could be good here (actually assuming he's on storm Earwig Squad would have been close to the nuts).
    Rather than cast matron this turn and Lackey Siege Gang in, if you just attack for 4 with Chief and Lackey then he goes to 10 instead of 8, you lackey in the matron searching for Piledriver, port the opp, then next turn cast piledriver and swing with everything then the opponent takes 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 6 = 14 and is still dead. By taking the SGC line here you don't speed up your clock at all and you increase the chance that the opp goes off because you miss the port activation (again, assuming the opp is on storm). The downside of this play compared to just jamming SGC is if your opponent has another discard spell to hit your Piledriver or if they actually aren't on storm and go Land -> Angler or something

    Notably even if you played 0 Piledrivers main you could do the same thing searching for rabble instead and it would still be lethal

    15:00 Thalia is good I guess

    21:00 Reasonable example for how good MWM is here

    21:50 I don't think angler would be that bad for you, you just happily pay the Echo on MWM in that spot and keep playing imo

    23:50 I agree with wasting the opp off black here, doing it when he was tapped out was better imo but if he didn't tap out for the bolt I wouldve done it upkeep because it plays around stifle better (Idk if this guy plays stifle, if he plays therapy then he most likely doesn't but I can't remember if you have seen any this match)

    28:00 If the opponent doesn't scoop here then I *think* the best play is Crafter, champion Matron kill Pyromancer, but seeing as you don't have CrafterI suppose Ringleader would have been the best choice

    28:30 Why are you not boarding out TSH
    29:10 Okay then if you've actually seen this guy play Jitte then fine but I'm not sure I agree with the 'I need bears' argument.

    32:00 You're right about Pyrokinesis being absurd here, I need to rethink my opinion of this card maybe

    36:30 If you cast matron and he topdecks another land here you still have outs to win the game (including the Pyro you keep mentioning), I think conceding here is obviously premature, am I missing something?

    41:50 How much better of a topdeck would rabble have been there compared to Piledriver

    43:10 This is another spot where having access to Lightning Crafter would be very good

    46:45 2x SGC omegalul (but realistically if either one is Kiki or Crafter or Krenko etc you pretty much have to mulligan anyway so whatever)

    47:00 Yeah I wouldn't have bottomed that Ringleader

    53:10 Theres a reasonable chance he just loses if you exile his Tendrils I think
    54:00 Oh ok I guess not (I misread this situation) I think it might have been correct to play MWM there then rather than crack relic but not 100% sure about this (didn't look to see exactly what he kept/discarded)

    56:00 I wouldn't pay for MWM here, he's on 4 and has 1 Tundra and 1 Fetch, if you don't pay for MWM and attack him for 1 (down to 3) and then waste his Tundra his only land left is a fetch, and if he cracks it then he will go to 2 and you still have lethal next turn with the 2 tokens

    58:40 I think this is probably a keep (This is also another clear example for how much better Rabblemasters usually are compared to Piledrivers or Lords in postboard games vs combo)

    100 Rather than cast MWM here I think there's an argument for playing Vial instead, not because your opponent can combo off next turn and you need wasteland protection immediately, but because you're going to want to leave up wasteland in later turns to keep him off the combo and therefore you won't be able to hardcast 3 and 4 drops, so you want to have vial in play ASAP

    110 Tapping out seems really greedy unless you think he's respecting in-hand stingscourger and yep you're dead lmao

    1:16:00 Props for BTFO Adrian but I think I might agree with him here, I find Stingscourger is good enough against Angler as well but I agree it's a close decision whether to play it or not

    1:26:20 I guess Rabblemaster would not have been a lethal draw :D sometimes 2 haste power is what you need

    1:31:00 Because your opponent can map for Stage and make Marit Lage next turn you either need to leave port up for 1 of the Bayous or make a board that is lethal through a Marit Lage. (The opponent is on 17). If you vial in the MWM and sac all 3 of it to play matron, and then find Chieftain and then sac the matron to tap out and play Chieftain, then this turn you attack for 2 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 10 which puts the opponent to 7, next turn if they make a Marit Lage with Stage then next turn you can vial matron and harcast MWM to kill them

    I like this line better rather than either only MWM + Port or MWM -> Matron -> Port because if you do use port then you only deal 4 this turn and I can't find a line that gives you a lethal attack the following turn if your opponent makes a Marit Lage (by going Urborg -> Hexmage, or with ESG). Attempting to use Port also gets punished by e.g. Decay, but idk if he would board spot removal in against you. On the other hand playing Chieftain and tapping out gets punished by Deluge. I would err towards the Chieftain play but not 100% sure about this.

    I wrote all that before I saw what you did and your line with Rabble first instead of Chieftain is almost the same idea. My version also wins though 2 blockers (If you attack them to 7 on the first attack then you Vial matron, search for MWM, hardcast MWM, attack with MWM, token, Matron, Skirk, Driver, Chief, so even if they block Driver + something they still take 8 and die). The reason why this line (with Chieftain on the earlier turn instead of Rabble) is still better is because MWM is only 2 to hardcast so it's not reliant on you topdecking a land to cast Chieftain (if you had drawn a spell after playing Rabble you would have had to sac something for 1 more mana to cast chieftain and you wouldn't have had exact lethal through Safekeeper + Maritlage)

    (This line assumes you still have a 2nd MWM in your library, which I think you do)

    1:42:00 Prospector and Piledriver looking a lot more embarassing than the previous game

    1:45:00 I'm not sure I agree with this wasteland activation because even though you're 'ahead' on board (1 Piledriver lul) your opponent can still cast nearly all of their spells on 2 lands while you have 4 and 5 mana creatures that you can draw (or Matron chaining into other things for example)

    1:48:00 This is a board where SGC is pretty clearly the best 4-5 drop but I'm not sure if this is the kind of game state we should be expecting to play towards

    1:49:40 Obviously you draw one as soon as I type that lmao

    1:52:45 Not bolting the SGC wutface

    1:58:30 I might actually keep this hand on the draw if you assume he boarded his forces out because it's so good if he goes DRS into Delver or YP, but it gets punished so badly by TNN and discard that maybe it's not worth it

    2:03:20 Very clear cut case of Chirurgeon vs Prospector (Although you could say the exact opposite about the turbodepths game), also another case where piledriver is ass

    2:08:20 In my opinion this matron search is the hardest decision of the entire league and I'm still not sure what the correct line to take is. SGC, Ringleader, MWM, Gempalm, Chieftain, Tarfire are all reasonable choices. If anybody is interested in watching some of these games but doesn't want to go through the entire ~2 hrs then just watch this game and post what you think is the best play in this spot.

    2:09:40 I think this block is awful, because with no Goblins in play your Chieftain sucks and you also have no mana to generate with Skirk anymore so you get punished by Wasteland.

    210 This kind of situation is why I think it's a terrible argument to say "Piledriver is good against TNN, it has pro blue". All the TNN decks are too interactive so your Piledriver will always be tiny, and you will never have such an overwhelming board that you can alpha-strike into the TNN and not be worried about it eating your other stuff. (Against actual Merfolk the situation is probably different due to their lack of removal but that deck is such a small meta % compared to every other deck with TNN in it).

    2:19:20 To me this play seems very loose, if your opponent finds a red source and wastes you off your cavern then you are left with 1 mountain in play and a bunch of 3 drops in your hand vs your opponent's active lavamancer. I think the play this turn was to either Matron or do nothing

    2:21:20 Forked Bolt on your piledriver rather than activate lavamancer lol

    2:24:10 You need to try to matron for something here (Either Sharpshooter if you're greedy or Tarfire if you aren't) rather than play MWM because otherwise the YP is going to get out of control before you can deal with it.

    2:26:15 Same as above but even worse because the writing is clearly on the wall for you now (actually at this point he has so many guys it's too late, it doesn't really matter what you do)

  10. #1070
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I'd have killed DRS and two Young Peezies with Pyrokinesis, exiling Piledriver, and the jammed Ringleader, saccing Prospector, to block and recoup one turn. I would not Matron here as my opponent is empty handed, and therefore I'm not worried about DRS at that moment. On the following turn I'd strictly have more information to Matron with.

    The only other line I'd consdier is Pyro exiling Pile, dealing 2 and 2 to DRS and DRS. I'd still cast Ringleader here saccing Prospector with the same gameplan. I can beat a storm of x/1's pretty easily. Especially with Matron still in hand that might get another Ringleader.

    Assuming I didn't get to do that either of these turns, and Matron was on the stack exactly as the video has it, I'd Matron for Ringleader.

    In every case, burying him is what I want to do. It provides the best outs to him drawing a cantrip chain of elementals, slamming a Gurmag or TNN, and even Cabal Therapy, as my board is better.

    If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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  11. #1071

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    I'd have killed DRS and two Young Peezies with Pyrokinesis, exiling Piledriver, and the jammed Ringleader, saccing Prospector, to block and recoup one turn. I would not Matron here as my opponent is empty handed, and therefore I'm not worried about DRS at that moment. On the following turn I'd strictly have more information to Matron with.

    The only other line I'd consdier is Pyro exiling Pile, dealing 2 and 2 to DRS and DRS. I'd still cast Ringleader here saccing Prospector with the same gameplan. I can beat a storm of x/1's pretty easily. Especially with Matron still in hand that might get another Ringleader.

    Assuming I didn't get to do that either of these turns, and Matron was on the stack exactly as the video has it, I'd Matron for Ringleader.

    In every case, burying him is what I want to do. It provides the best outs to him drawing a cantrip chain of elementals, slamming a Gurmag or TNN, and even Cabal Therapy, as my board is better.
    Yeah I agree the best play here is Pyro pitch Driver, kill 1 DRS and double YP, sac Prospector play Ringleader, I don't know how I missed this when I was watching the first time.
    Matron for Ringleader in that spot is probably the best as well

  12. #1072
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    PHD Thesis
    That was an impressive read, thanks for taking the time to do it!

    Yeah, I acknowledge I made a heap of terrible plays but it's ok cos so did my opponents!

    There was also a line in one of the storm games where I could have popped prospector to cast Relic and then cast Thalia, which would be certain lights out.

    I really threw away match 5 and think that we could have easily 5-0'd were it not for some ridiculously bad plays on my tilted ass end. Stress is hard boyz :(
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  13. #1073

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    That was an impressive read, thanks for taking the time to do it!

    Yeah, I acknowledge I made a heap of terrible plays but it's ok cos so did my opponents!

    There was also a line in one of the storm games where I could have popped prospector to cast Relic and then cast Thalia, which would be certain lights out.

    I really threw away match 5 and think that we could have easily 5-0'd were it not for some ridiculously bad plays on my tilted ass end. Stress is hard boyz :(
    You 5-0d in our hearts, Steve, it’s okay :D You just misplayed so the list wouldn’t get published and we’d get meta game’d out by the filthy reddit players, right? Gotta hide the tech.

    Something I think is eternally interesting about Goblins is that there is virtually no consensus about it, both in building and in playing the deck. Playstyles vary so widely it can be the same 71/75 cards but play like a different archetype. Everyone’s individual experiences with this is probably why opinions on play lines are so varied. We build heuristics based on past plays with deck, making decisions difficult to agree on.
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  14. #1074

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    went 3-1 for the 2nd place in a small local event last w.e. playing Rwg build, almost the same i posted earlier. nothing special, but happy to won vs two decks i'm feeling not comfortable against

    4 lackey, vial, matron, ringleader
    3 gempalm, warchief, MWM, tarfire
    2 chieftain
    1 krenko, sharpshooter, tin street, prospector, piledriver, rabblemaster, pyrokinesis

    6 fetch
    4 wasteland, cavern
    3 port, mountain
    2 plateau
    1 taiga

    SB
    3 chalice
    2 thalia, rip, wear/tear, pyrokinesis
    1 SGC, carpet of flowers, blood moon, stingscourger

    R1 enchantress 2-1 w
    i think is a terrible MU for creature decks like goblin.
    game one he didn't combo of with infinite card draw and i managed to beat him very slowly due to elephant grass, prospector and sharpshooter do the rest of the job
    g2 he kill me with a lot of angels very quickly
    g3 go very aggressive against his mana in first turns with Tear on Wild Growth and one or two wasteland, then lackey slam a SGC in play. he gain some tempo with glacial chasm, but quickly lost life from his upkeep

    R2 jund 1-2 L
    g1 missed two land drop while he double turach me, ouch
    g2 double vial + triple wasteland + tarfire on deathrite in the first 4 turns, feels good!
    g3 i made an important misplay: he clear my board of 1/1s with golgari charm, and then play confidant. i play matron tutoring gempalm (instead of tarfire!!), next turn cycle gempalm and he kill matron in response. he draw milions of card while i had nothing.. very bad played

    R3 Pikula 2-1
    g1 fair play, nothing special to remember but goblin are just too good ;)
    g2 he found a ingeneered plague, while i didn't found my 2 copies of Tear
    g3 lackey into SGC...! again..!

    R4 my friend playing bug Food Chain - Balista 2-1 w
    this is a very bad MU in my opinion. tested many times with him and i think my overall record was around 1-12 for him.. but this time somehow goblins did their job!
    g1 usual goblin business, a couple of wasteland kept him under control, while prospector and sharpshooter won me the game.. again!
    g2 he combo out while i was trying to race him. didn't find Tear for his food chain, also din't find green mana for carpet
    g3 he paly toxic deluge killing my matron + tokens + rabblemaster around turn 4. but sealed the game anyway with matron, warchief and piledriver. he found an eng plague, but too late


    i liked the deck a lot. prospector is amazing (have access to a second one would be great), as SGC is: thinking about bringing him back again in the MD. carpet is bad since i don't want to fetch green on my first turn at all. i'd like a third wear/tear in th sideboard

  15. #1075
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    So goblins still beats pikula after 13 years?
    -rob

  16. #1076

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    how to deal against RUG tempo?? what the best SB options?? i cant think blood moon and nothing else.

    Stifle, daze, FoW, goyfs, mongoose and a lot of bolts... seems a pretty hard match.

  17. #1077

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Do you think Goblins is making a comeback?

    If you look at the decks to beat Goblins is in a good shape:

    Vs Miracles: Extremely favorable
    Vs Grixis: Even or slightly favorable
    Vs Czech Pile: Slightly Favorable
    Vs Lands: Favorable
    Vs Show’n’Tell: Slightly unfavorable
    Eldrazi Stompy: Favorable.

  18. #1078
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagratho View Post
    how to deal against RUG tempo?? what the best SB options?? i cant think blood moon and nothing else.

    Stifle, daze, FoW, goyfs, mongoose and a lot of bolts... seems a pretty hard match.
    Hi Sagratho,

    RUG is slightly unfavorable to even for Goblins. In G2, Relic of Progenitus is a very good asset. Postboard, try not to keep too many Tarfires, because they are useless against Nimble Mongoose and pump Tarmogoyf. One or two can be nice if you can tarfire a Tarmo, and crack Relic EOT.

    We need to play Daze-proof, on the play AND on the draw. Some players will keep their Daze even on the draw, which seems wrong, due to unproductive tempo play, but they know it will hurt us. On the draw, Thalia can be good.
    Last edited by Fourbirr; 02-07-2018 at 03:35 PM.

  19. #1079
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by menph View Post
    R2 jund 1-2 L
    g1 missed two land drop while he double turach me, ouch
    g2 double vial + triple wasteland + tarfire on deathrite in the first 4 turns, feels good!
    g3 i made an important misplay: he clear my board of 1/1s with golgari charm, and then play confidant. i play matron tutoring gempalm (instead of tarfire!!), next turn cycle gempalm and he kill matron in response. he draw milions of card while i had nothing.. very bad played
    Well done for representing Goblins at your LGS.

    Sad that you didn't Matron for Tarfire. They have no Counters, we can play safe here. Or maybe were you short on cards and need something from cycling? Anyway, you could have tutored for Matron again, play her, grab Gempalm and delay you Confidant kill for 1 turn.

  20. #1080

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    Do you think Goblins is making a comeback?

    If you look at the decks to beat Goblins is in a good shape:

    Vs Miracles: Extremely favorable
    Vs Grixis: Even or slightly favorable
    Vs Czech Pile: Slightly Favorable
    Vs Lands: Favorable
    Vs Show’n’Tell: Slightly unfavorable
    Eldrazi Stompy: Favorable.
    I’d struggle to say Lands is favorable, by quite a stretch. Sometimes we get to aggro them out, but it’s quite scary to see the ease they can lock us out. Can’t grind out actually infinite removal spells plus mana denial and 20/20s. I could see the classic list being favored with blood moons in the SB, winstigator has felt even, based on my testing in the last few days.

    Sagratho, with regards to RUG delver. I’ve done a ton of testing against it lately, the matchup is very interesting. There’s a couple things you can do to increase your percentage against them. Maindeck stingscouger is quite good for bouncing goyfs, which will get big very very quickly if you let them. T1 is the most important turn of the game, and the correct sequencing is counterintuitive. On the play, if you have a choice between a cavern, lackey or mountain, vial start, go with lackey. Without cavern, play vial. On the draw, still lead on lackey, and it might even be correct to play it with a mountain over cavern, as if it eats a force or daze you are happy. You also don’t want to be wastelanded on their t2. The whole point of this is that you always always want your vial to be daze-proof. It’s your best card in the matchup by a mile. If you resolve vial, you’re relatively favored unless they do something like play 3 goyfs in a row. We lose the matches where their draw is like a zoo deck. Also worth noting that winstigator does significantly better in this matchup. The instigator forces them to respect a vial on 2 and perhaps not attack. A lackey and winstigator on board forces the opponent to hold back blockers until they find more threats or bolts, giving you time to fill up the board with more goblins as your mana develops.

    For postboard, Relic of Progenitus is your best option by far, if you resolve one you basically can only lose to a bunch of quick delvers. I dunno if I’d even bring in blood moon, it’s so expensive. Something that I’ve heard was done back in the day is surgical to hit wasteland or tropical island (so they can’t cast mongoose or goyf). Maybe a little suspect, but now that the deck also plays Loam in the board, it might be worth it.

    Lastly, as far as actually playing goes: Rarely actually wasteland them. Port is fantastic in the matchup, since they run on so few lands that cutting them on colors is totally doable, and makes playing around stifle a lot easier, since they’re less likely to be holding up mana on your turn.

    Hope this helps!
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

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