[Deck] Vial Goblins

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Great primer! Watched some of your video too.

You've convinced me to add Stronghold.

Might have to add Sharpshooter back after seeing your Skirk-Sharpshooter slaughterfest combo. I miss Sharpshooter. I thought it was redundant with Chainwhirler (and no one here plays Elves), but I guess it still has value against a lot of dorks, especially with Skirk tricks.

Do you think Fanatic is better than Tarfire now? DRS is gone, but there are still must-kill X/2s like Mentor, SFM, Containment Priest, Insectile Aberration.. Is the thought that Cratermaker already gives you enough shocks and it's better to have another cheap 1cc dork for Earwig Squad?

[1GoblinLackey]

Great primer! Watched some of your video too.

You've convinced me to add Stronghold.

Might have to add Sharpshooter back after seeing your Skirk-Sharpshooter slaughterfest combo. I miss Sharpshooter. I thought it was redundant with Chainwhirler (and no one here plays Elves), but I guess it still has value against a lot of dorks, especially with Skirk tricks.

Do you think Fanatic is better than Tarfire now? DRS is gone, but there are still must-kill X/2s like Mentor, SFM, Containment Priest, Insectile Aberration.. Is the thought that Cratermaker already gives you enough shocks and it's better to have another cheap 1cc dork for Earwig Squad?

Glad you enjoyed the primer and my video! I had been running only Whirler for awhile, but I found that Sharpshooter just adds some extra dimensions to the deck that are quite attractive. A little extra reach didn't hurt anyone!

I am VERY convinced that Fanatic is better than Tarfire by a pretty significant margin. That list of 4 creatures is basically every relevant X/2 in the format (and tarfiring a mentor is kinda a pipe dream if your opponent isn't bad), all the other small creatures are X/1s. Cratermaker can handle all of those anyway, yes. Fanatic is cheap, comes into play off Vial/Cavern, allows you to tap out while still holding removal up (incidentally making your ports/wastes better, and 3 drops more castable), pumps your piledriver/gempalm numbers, and prowls a Squad. It doesn't kill Insectile Abberation, but it sure is good at killing Delver of Secrets, Dark Confidant, Noble Hierach, any infect creature, Flickerwisp, Mother of Runes, Vampire Hexmage, Thalia, Young Pyromancer, most elves, etc etc. I've saved myself a lotta damage by blocking a Gurmag Angler, then throwing Fanatic at a Delver before damage. It feels AWESOME.

[tescrin]

Some years back I developed a Goblin Aggro/Combo deck which basically added Goblin Bushwhacker and Dark Triumph with more of a "burn" feel. While that's not terribly relevant, Dark Triumph feels like a sleeper card to me, waiting for someone to do the obvious with it; that goofy aforementioned deck had many lines that result in a T3 kill vs combo decks or players that don't want to block (and Triumph of course can be played *after* blocks; depending how you want to roll.)

I mostly mention it because I think if you're going to be running black, it may well be worth considering Dark Triumph as a "end the game right now" spell. The fact it's instant speed, can be used in response to removal, is free, and is most of an Overwhelm makes it combo quite well with MWM (who can be sac'd in response to his echo trigger to give his tokens and your T1 play the boost)

[nusume9]

Hello guys!

Im all new to goblins, have just picked up the deck and I'm going to play it at the local legacy event this weekend.
I do have some questions regarding how to value my creatures (probably what the deck is all about :D)

i have landed in this list after a couple of weeks of playing and just moved sting to the sideboard.
its a lot of midrange decks in my local meta and I'm wondering what to bring in the last spot and feel like I need some help to understand the ratio between the 4th gempalm/cratermaker/warchief vs 3rd war marshal vs the first chieftain. the list is kinda straightforward (been watching goblinlackey1 a lot on youtube, so its influenced a lot by him but without the black splash. thanx a lot for your great content! ;))

anyone able to explain how I should think here?

mainboard (59 cards atm)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Skirk Prospector
1 goblin trashmaster
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Aether Vial
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

sideboard
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Damping Sphere
1 Stingscourger
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus


best regards

nusume9

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Welcome to the tribe!

I really think the 4th Warchief or the 1st Chieftain is more important than the other two option. Haste wins games, by allowing you to pivot from control to aggro faster, not to mention how good it is against planeswalkers.

You could just do what Eli (goblinlackey1) and just run 61. If I did that it'd be the 4th Gempalm, as it's just a good grindy card.

I'm a little worried about your Loam game with only 1 Relic of Progenitus. Tormod's crypt shrinks Knights, but it does not cantrip. Other than that it looks pretty solid.

Go get 'em.

[1GoblinLackey]

Hello guys!

Im all new to goblins, have just picked up the deck and I'm going to play it at the local legacy event this weekend.
I do have some questions regarding how to value my creatures (probably what the deck is all about :D)

i have landed in this list after a couple of weeks of playing and just moved sting to the sideboard.
its a lot of midrange decks in my local meta and I'm wondering what to bring in the last spot and feel like I need some help to understand the ratio between the 4th gempalm/cratermaker/warchief vs 3rd war marshal vs the first chieftain. the list is kinda straightforward (been watching goblinlackey1 a lot on youtube, so its influenced a lot by him but without the black splash. thanx a lot for your great content! ;))

anyone able to explain how I should think here?

mainboard (59 cards atm)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Skirk Prospector
1 goblin trashmaster
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Aether Vial
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

sideboard
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Damping Sphere
1 Stingscourger
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus


best regards

nusume9

Welcome! Glad you've been watching my content, I really appreciate it. I'd agree with Olaf here and play the 4th Warchief/1st Chieftain. If you're willing to go to 61, I'd then probably play the 3rd War Marshal.

Your sideboard looks pretty good, I'd suggest another Relic over Damping Sphere though. Relic is more widely applicable, Sphere is somewhat specialized tech for Storm and Elves. Hope your first outing with Gobs goes well, but remember to not expect to. Most first timers lose a lot with Gobs, it's VERY hard to play. If you've watched my stuff, you'll know that I often make a small mistake that I kick myself for 5 turns later for. It can be quite punishing. Have fun first and foremost!

[nusume9]

Welcome! Glad you've been watching my content, I really appreciate it. I'd agree with Olaf here and play the 4th Warchief/1st Chieftain. If you're willing to go to 61, I'd then probably play the 3rd War Marshal.

Your sideboard looks pretty good, I'd suggest another Relic over Damping Sphere though. Relic is more widely applicable, Sphere is somewhat specialized tech for Storm and Elves. Hope your first outing with Gobs goes well, but remember to not expect to. Most first timers lose a lot with Gobs, it's VERY hard to play. If you've watched my stuff, you'll know that I often make a small mistake that I kick myself for 5 turns later for. It can be quite punishing. Have fun first and foremost!

Thank you! okey, I think I'm gonna try the first chieftain to have a better game against marsh casualties and killing Lilly the last hope/jace.

the deck is really hard to play and I don't expect to win the tournament, just have some fun and learn the deck in a more competitive setting =)

i will try the second relic over the damping sphere or tormods crypt, I know there is some TES players at the event. They don't rely anything on the graveyard, so thats why the damping is there.

will write a small summary of my first experience with the deck in a bigger tournament:)

Welcome to the tribe!

I really think the 4th Warchief or the 1st Chieftain is more important than the other two option. Haste wins games, by allowing you to pivot from control to aggro faster, not to mention how good it is against planeswalkers.

You could just do what Eli (goblinlackey1) and just run 61. If I did that it'd be the 4th Gempalm, as it's just a good grindy card.

I'm a little worried about your Loam game with only 1 Relic of Progenitus. Tormod's crypt shrinks Knights, but it does not cantrip. Other than that it looks pretty solid.

Go get 'em.

Thank you for the input, I added the first chieftain for the reason you stated. regarding card 61 I think it comes down to more silverbullets, as I don't have any splash I don't feel its needed (I don't think thats why I'm gonna lose matches :D matron is a hard card to play with the choices I have already;))

i will add the second relic instead of tormod's or damping sphere. I will have some testing done against grixis control/loam/reanimator/maverick on Saturday and see what feels the best.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Fanatic is better than Tarfire

Reasons

I'm convinced. I'll make the switch.

I noticed you struggled against Phoenix in your stream (or at least how to play against them). Here are some strategy ideas that worked for me.

They run up to 8 discard spells (Thoughtseize + Cabal) and 12 cantrips, so expect them to always have discard postboard. On the other hand, many lists lack spot removal and some run 0 counters. That means SB answers in play (Crypt, Relic) are much better than reactive SB answers in hand (Pyrokinesis, Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest).

Even though Surgical on Phoenix seems really good, I'd argue that because Surgical is so common and they have so many ways to find discard, no competent player is going to combo off postboard without playing around Surgical. Expect either discard or plan B (Mentor/Stalker/Pyromancer). In all those matches where you boarded in Surgical, how many times did you Extract his Phoenixes? I think 0. I think a Goblin is better. Good Phoenix players won't play into Surgical. Or if they see Surgical in game 2, board it out for game 3. Let them waste tempo playing around a card that isn't there.

Turn 1 proactive answers seem the best: Leyline of the Void, Crypt, Relic, Grafdigger's Cage. They come down before discard can hit (on the play or if he turn 1 Ponders) and cheaply nullify his main plan. He's forced to dig into maybe 2-3 artifact kill cards brought in postboard (maybe 0 if he boarded wrong?), which gives him a lot fewer outs than if he just needs discard to attack your hand.

It's a Cabal Therapy match. Play all 3 Therapies. The "unfair mode" is an A+B combo: Dark Ritual + Buried Alive (+ generic other spell). Strip one from his hand and the deck is significantly worse. You should be able to beat the "fair" mode. I'd name Buried Alive blind (Dark Ritual is defensible too), then flashback to strip cantrips or SB cards. Not only does Therapy break his A+B combo, but it also outgrinds his 1-for-1 discard. He can stop Surgical and Kinesis and Thorn, but he can't stop Therapy.

Waste/Port them off black when you can. It shuts off Buried Alive, discard, -1/-1s, Tombstalker...

Stingscourger is good. Bouncing Phoenix is better than killing it because it's harder for them to deploy it from hand than from the yard. Sting also kills Mentor tokens and buys a lot of tempo bouncing Tombstalker. I'd leave it in.

With Gempalm and Cratermaker, kill Phoenix on his combat step instead of your turn. Good chance he plays 3 spells and doesn't even lose an attack. They have few ways to interact with the board, but many ways to chain 3 spells, so I think that's what you play around in a vacuum.

I'm on the fence about Pyrokinesis. Killing 2 Phoenixes is mediocre, because they can just get them back. Otherwise... you're 2-for-1ing yourself against Mentor? Because they run 1-for-1 hand disruption and draw much better than you (12 cantrips), the card disadvantage hurts. They can just strip other red cards from your hand, leaving you in a position where Kinesis is dead or you're forced to exile something good to "lose less".

Why am I advocating not bringing in some SB cards that could be good against them but lose to discard? Boarding out too many Goblins seems bad. You need a clock (their win conditions are explosive), you need threats to push past their hand disruption and -1/-1s, and you need enough bodies to feed Gempalms and Therapy. They're combo, but the win conditions are also fragile creatures that Goblins has many MD answers for. I've beaten them without ever drawing any SB cards. On the other hand, the best way to lose to Marsh Casualties is to have a creature-light draw and no Ringleaders in the deck to recover.

[egoblinsw]

@1goblinlackey
I am trying out a very similar list to your Volrath’s article, and was surprised to like it. I have been struggling with my ultra-toolbox list and really enjoyed the low curve with lots of piledrivers and MWM. I’ve been some of their biggest haters, but am coming around. I tried out oversold cemetery instead of oath of ghouls, but it took too long to come online. I want to try out oath next.

[1GoblinLackey]

I'm convinced. I'll make the switch.

I noticed you struggled against Phoenix in your stream (or at least how to play against them). Here are some strategy ideas that worked for me.

They run up to 8 discard spells (Thoughtseize + Cabal) and 12 cantrips, so expect them to always have discard postboard. On the other hand, many lists lack spot removal and some run 0 counters. That means SB answers in play (Crypt, Relic) are much better than reactive SB answers in hand (Pyrokinesis, Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest).

Even though Surgical on Phoenix seems really good, I'd argue that because Surgical is so common and they have so many ways to find discard, no competent player is going to combo off postboard without playing around Surgical. Expect either discard or plan B (Mentor/Stalker/Pyromancer). In all those matches where you boarded in Surgical, how many times did you Extract his Phoenixes? I think 0. I think a Goblin is better. Good Phoenix players won't play into Surgical. Or if they see Surgical in game 2, board it out for game 3. Let them waste tempo playing around a card that isn't there.

Turn 1 proactive answers seem the best: Leyline of the Void, Crypt, Relic, Grafdigger's Cage. They come down before discard can hit (on the play or if he turn 1 Ponders) and cheaply nullify his main plan. He's forced to dig into maybe 2-3 artifact kill cards brought in postboard (maybe 0 if he boarded wrong?), which gives him a lot fewer outs than if he just needs discard to attack your hand.

It's a Cabal Therapy match. Play all 3 Therapies. The "unfair mode" is an A+B combo: Dark Ritual + Buried Alive (+ generic other spell). Strip one from his hand and the deck is significantly worse. You should be able to beat the "fair" mode. I'd name Buried Alive blind (Dark Ritual is defensible too), then flashback to strip cantrips or SB cards. Not only does Therapy break his A+B combo, but it also outgrinds his 1-for-1 discard. He can stop Surgical and Kinesis and Thorn, but he can't stop Therapy.

Waste/Port them off black when you can. It shuts off Buried Alive, discard, -1/-1s, Tombstalker...

Stingscourger is good. Bouncing Phoenix is better than killing it because it's harder for them to deploy it from hand than from the yard. Sting also kills Mentor tokens and buys a lot of tempo bouncing Tombstalker. I'd leave it in.

With Gempalm and Cratermaker, kill Phoenix on his combat step instead of your turn. Good chance he plays 3 spells and doesn't even lose an attack. They have few ways to interact with the board, but many ways to chain 3 spells, so I think that's what you play around in a vacuum.

I'm on the fence about Pyrokinesis. Killing 2 Phoenixes is mediocre, because they can just get them back. Otherwise... you're 2-for-1ing yourself against Mentor? Because they run 1-for-1 hand disruption and draw much better than you (12 cantrips), the card disadvantage hurts. They can just strip other red cards from your hand, leaving you in a position where Kinesis is dead or you're forced to exile something good to "lose less".

Why am I advocating not bringing in some SB cards that could be good against them but lose to discard? Boarding out too many Goblins seems bad. You need a clock (their win conditions are explosive), you need threats to push past their hand disruption and -1/-1s, and you need enough bodies to feed Gempalms and Therapy. They're combo, but the win conditions are also fragile creatures that Goblins has many MD answers for. I've beaten them without ever drawing any SB cards. On the other hand, the best way to lose to Marsh Casualties is to have a creature-light draw and no Ringleaders in the deck to recover.

Thanks for the advice for Phoenix! I'm coming around on the idea of Therapy, but I can't quite seem to find the slots for it. If I'm siding 4 grave hate cards, earwig squad, and then some number of therapies, what would you cut?

@1goblinlackey
I am trying out a very similar list to your Volrath’s article, and was surprised to like it. I have been struggling with my ultra-toolbox list and really enjoyed the low curve with lots of piledrivers and MWM. I’ve been some of their biggest haters, but am coming around. I tried out oversold cemetery instead of oath of ghouls, but it took too long to come online. I want to try out oath next.

Happy to hear that my build is working out for you! Oath is kinda the nut, it's a very fun card to have in play. The curve is a big deal that gets overlooked in the deck. I wanna find a way to cram a 3rd war marshal in there.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Thanks for the advice for Phoenix! I'm coming around on the idea of Therapy, but I can't quite seem to find the slots for it. If I'm siding 4 grave hate cards, earwig squad, and then some number of therapies, what would you cut?

What would you cut for the first 5? Sharpshooter, Stronghold, and 3 Ringleaders?

What's your grave hate?. This is controversial... but I'd play Therapy before Surgical/Faerie Macabre if there isn't room for both. I just think Surgical is too reactive and a lot easier for them to play around with discard or Plan B, while proactive Therapy is more likely to stop explosive hands and harder for them to stop with their disruption. Especially on the play (if they have Brainstorm up it's riskier).

[Vinz35]

Hi,

Did anyone of you try Cheering Fanatic or Legion Warboss ? What did you or what would you remove ?

[joaquin]

Hey guys, I don't post here very often but I'm taking goblins to a tournament in a few days.
Two new cards I'm trying out are 1 Mogg Fanatic and 1 Goblin Settler.

I don't think settler will be amazing, but I have wanted to test it out as a 1 of for a long time (pet card).

I have a quick question about sideboarding. I am running a mono red list with 4 Faerie Macabre, 1 relic, and 1 cage in the board. My meta has a lot of reanimator and sneak and show so I'm also running 1 karakas mainboard in place of the 4th port.

Do you think leyline of the void or surgical would be better options than faerie macabre? If so, why? I like the fact that faerie macabre can't be countered, and it's not a permanent so it can't be destroyed. But it gets hit hard by hand disruption and doesn't have as strong of an effect as surgical.

Thanks in advance, I'll post my list and how the tournament went next week!

[1GoblinLackey]

Hey guys, I don't post here very often but I'm taking goblins to a tournament in a few days.
Two new cards I'm trying out are 1 Mogg Fanatic and 1 Goblin Settler.

I don't think settler will be amazing, but I have wanted to test it out as a 1 of for a long time (pet card).

I have a quick question about sideboarding. I am running a mono red list with 4 Faerie Macabre, 1 relic, and 1 cage in the board. My meta has a lot of reanimator and sneak and show so I'm also running 1 karakas mainboard in place of the 4th port.

Do you think leyline of the void or surgical would be better options than faerie macabre? If so, why? I like the fact that faerie macabre can't be countered, and it's not a permanent so it can't be destroyed. But it gets hit hard by hand disruption and doesn't have as strong of an effect as surgical.

Thanks in advance, I'll post my list and how the tournament went next week!

Hey! Good luck in your event!

I think if you're running 4x of a single grave hate card, Leyline is by far the best. I'd probably do 4x Leyline and 2x Relic. Leyline will at the very least buy time while they look for decay or wear//tear, and Relic hits from a slightly different angle (notably doesn't get blown up by reverent silence). Relic also has lots of utility in a bunch of fair matchups. If you wanna stick with Faeries, then at least do a split with surgicals. Surgicals can come in in more matchups, and simply diversifying makes you less susceptible to Cabal Therapy, which most graveyard decks play.

[joaquin]

So in a meta where I want a lot of graveyard hate would you say 2 faerie, 2 surgical, and 2 relic is a pretty good package?

[kombatkiwi]

What would you cut for the first 5? Sharpshooter, Stronghold, and 3 Ringleaders?

What's your grave hate?. This is controversial... but I'd play Therapy before Surgical/Faerie Macabre if there isn't room for both. I just think Surgical is too reactive and a lot easier for them to play around with discard or Plan B, while proactive Therapy is more likely to stop explosive hands and harder for them to stop with their disruption. Especially on the play (if they have Brainstorm up it's riskier).

Maybe you don't want to cut sharpshooter in this matchup because their non-Phoenix backup plan is pretty removal-light (after sideboarding maybe not) and mostly revolves around 1 toughness creatures (Dark Confidant or Young Pyro)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@Vinz35

I tried out Cheering Fanatic directly before Deathrite Shaman was banned and was pleasantly surprised by the result, but I don't think he compares to Goblin Cratermaker. If you are short on two drops, he still competes with Goblin Cratermaker, Goblin Piledriver, and Mogg War Marshal, and those are sort of tough to beat out. I was on a 3/3/3 split between Cheer, Pile, and MWM when I did the testing.

Lot's of people seem to be picking up Warboss, but I'm not seeing consistent results by the card. It's obviously good in our gameplan, but I personally think it's got a case of "Good match-ups better, bad match-ups worse."

---

@joaquin

I would NOT run Settler if you don't have Warren Instigator, the extra speed and pseudo mana sources makes it very good, not to mention Goblin Matron becomes a Dragon Fodder / Stone Rain when Warren Instigator hits. If you don't have it you are comparing your tutor target to Goblin Ringleader or Siege-Gang Commander, and in a classic grindy shell, it should basically always be one of those other options at 4 or 5 mana.

If you are truly gunning for graveyard stuff Leyline of the Void is the best answer. If you are gunning for them but don't have 4 slots to commit, then Faerie Macabre does it. If you want powerful all around, but fast hate, it's Surgical Extraction. I tend to run Surgical if I am to run one of these options simply because it comes in against far more match-ups. It's not awkward boarding in 2 Surgical against Lands, but is to bring in 4 Leyline. They don't fold to grave hate, they just don't like it. Especially since it affects opening hand decisions so hard. My hands down choices for Grave Hate: Surgical for un-fair stuff / Relic of Progenitus for fair stuff. My unorthodox choice for Reanimator and S&T: I'm running 3 Karakas in my board. I'd say just run another one over a piece of grave hate.


---

On Phoenix:

I'm not so sure I like Goblin Sharpshooter against Arclight Phoenix / Young Pyromancer; it's pretty slow. At least Goblin Chainwhirler comes down and becomes active immediately. If you don't have a Goblin Chainwhirler go ahead and leave it in, but if do I'd say cut the Gatling gun.

[egoblinsw]

Triple agree that Warren Instigator ( with chrome mox) is what makes settler strongest. Being able to tutor him directly into play turns 2-3 and often also find Kikijiki is the biggest appeal of winstigator lists for me.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Maybe you don't want to cut sharpshooter in this matchup because their non-Phoenix backup plan is pretty removal-light (after sideboarding maybe not) and mostly revolves around 1 toughness creatures (Dark Confidant or Young Pyro)

Good point. I was thinking of the Esper lists that plan B into Mentor or Tombstalker (Bob is bad with Tombstalker), but some Grixis lists run Bob or Pyro. There are many plan Bs to play around. What would you board out for 5 slots? What about for 8? Would you even bring in that many cards?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Good point. I was thinking of the Esper lists that plan B into Mentor or Tombstalker (Bob is bad with Tombstalker), but some Grixis lists run Bob or Pyro. There are many plan Bs to play around. What would you board out for 5 slots? What about for 8? Would you even bring in that many cards?

Not sure, the deck is super new. Whitefaces, the progenitor of the grixis build, is in our Discord, and basically suggested that treating it like Combo Elves is best. Creature Combo, with a good fair plan. Awkwardly they attack from so many angles it would be super easy to overboard.

Step 1, board something that make it so you don't lose to T1 or T2 Triple Phoenix.

Step 2, board to beat several X/1 and X/2 in the mid game.

After that I think it's really dependent on your Main/Side.