Page 92 of 97 FirstFirst ... 4282888990919293949596 ... LastLast
Results 1,821 to 1,840 of 1923

Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #1821
    Member
    jrw1985's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Location

    Kapa'a HI
    Posts

    412

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I saw that most of the top Legacy decks run way more mana or land-equivalent cards than we do. Eldrazi and Dark Depths run 30 mana/land cards, Delver decks and Miracles run 28 when you consider cantrips as nothing more than a way to make a land drop. The deck with the fewest lands/mana is DnT. They run 24 lands and 4 Vials (which are sort of a mana source) so their manabase is very similar to ours, but they have a much lower curve and are also monoW. I wondered if I upped the number of lands in the deck from a standard high of 24 up to 26 lands how that would affect land drops and Ringleader reveals. I might as well run the numbers on land drops and Ringleaders. Assuming a 60 card deck and the standard high end of 24 lands vs 26 lands, and 32 Goblins vs 30 Goblins, what are the basic questions we need to answer?...
    1) What are the odds of blanking with Ringleader? 32Goblins 4.5% .... 30Goblins 6% ... 1.5% difference
    2) What are the odds of hitting 4 goblins off Ringleader? 32G 6.9% ... 30G 5.2% ... 1.7% difference
    3) What are the odds of hitting 2 or more goblins off Ringleader? 32G 73.2% ... 30G 68.1% ... 5.1% difference
    4) What are the odds of having 0 lands in your opening hand? 24Lands 2.2% ... 26Lands 1.4% ... 0.8% difference
    5)What are the odds of having 2 or more lands in your opening hand? 24L 85.7% ... 26L 89.6% ... 3.9% difference
    6) What are the odds of having 6 or more lands in your opening hand? 24L 1.3% ... 26L 2.2% ... 0.9% difference
    7) What are the odds of having 2 or more lands T2 on the play? 24L 91.0% ... 26L 93.8% ... 2.8% difference
    8) What are the odds of having 3 or more lands T3 on the play? 24L 78.9% ... 26L 84.6% ... 5.7% difference
    9) What are the odds of having 4 or more lands T4 on the play? 24L 63.2% ... 26L 71.6% ... 8.4% difference
    10) What are the odds of having 5 or more lands T5 on the play? 24L 46.7% ... 26L 56.7% ... 10.0% difference
    11) What are the odds of having 6 or more lands T6 on the play? 24L 31.9% ... 26L 42.0% ... 10.1% difference
    10) What are the odds of having 7 or more lands T7 on the play? 24L 20.2% ... 26L 29.0% ... 8.8% difference
    Here's what jumps out at me from the numbers: Those 2 lands that are no longer goblins cards don't have a huge impact on ringleader performance. Whether you're running 30 or 32 goblins your odds of blanking or hitting four off Ringleader are pretty slim. And more likely than not, you're drawing two or more goblins either way. Running a higher concentration of Goblins in your deck will no doubt make Ringleader performance marginally better, but a 2-goblin-card-difference will not change the expected results of a Ringleader in a meaningful way. TL;DR - Your Ringleaders are generally drawing you two cards either way.
    Now here's a more impactful area: Land Drops. How those two extra lands affect land drops is much more significant. Early land drops do not see much difference between a 24 and 26 land build. Your chances of being mana screwed or flooded T1 are both pretty slim. What becomes significant is your ability to make land drops as the game goes on. Your odds of hitting your 3rd and 4th land drops are fairly better with 26 lands, but the real difference shows up on the 5th land drop, because with 26 lands you are more likely than not to hit your 5th land drop, with 24 lands you are more likely than not to miss your 5th land drop.
    I'm not going to try to calculate odds of mana-flood because there are two many variables. I have lost plenty of games to mana-flood where I still drew 3-4 non-land cards. Those games feel like flooding because you drew the wrong non-land cards, not because you drew too many lands. It's obvious to assume that a 26 land build would flood out more often, I just can't think of how to define "flooding" for the sake of calculating.
    As always, all odds are brought to you by Stattrek!
    https://stattrek.com/online-calculat...geometric.aspx

  2. #1822

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I saw that most of the top Legacy decks run way more mana or land-equivalent cards than we do. Eldrazi and Dark Depths run 30 mana/land cards, Delver decks and Miracles run 28 when you consider cantrips as nothing more than a way to make a land drop. The deck with the fewest lands/mana is DnT. They run 24 lands and 4 Vials (which are sort of a mana source) so their manabase is very similar to ours, but they have a much lower curve and are also monoW.
    This is a valid consideration, but think of Lackey as a mana source. A 23 land goblins deck is running 31 cards whose only real purpose is playing other cards (23 + 4 vial + 4 lackey)

  3. #1823
    Member
    jrw1985's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Location

    Kapa'a HI
    Posts

    412

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by egoblinsw View Post
    This is a valid consideration, but think of Lackey as a mana source. A 23 land goblins deck is running 31 cards whose only real purpose is playing other cards (23 + 4 vial + 4 lackey)
    I thought about that, but ultimately decided Lackey has too many strings attached to be a mana-like-source in my analysis.

    Another note: The 25th land makes you more likely than not to make your 5th land drop t5!

  4. #1824

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I thought about that, but ultimately decided Lackey has too many strings attached to be a mana-like-source in my analysis.

    Another note: The 25th land makes you more likely than not to make your 5th land drop t5!
    I don't think that'ss good thinking though. Because Lackey doesn't do anything else, you have to count it as a mana source, because otherwise it's just a dead card.

  5. #1825

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Tried out a Goblin Engineer with mixed results.
    made T8 at Gaming for Gains (7 rounds 5-1-1, loss to storm in T8) dropped 2-2 at another 7 round event more recently

    My artifact package was 3 Engineer, with 3 Chrome Mox, 4 Great Furnace, 3 Chalice of the Void, 4 Aether Vial, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Crucible of Worlds. I also went a bit heavier on the sideboard artifacts, with a tormod's crypt and grafdigger's cage as part of my GY hate, and one thorn one damping sphere.


    My biggest concern with this package is that it leaves me a lot more vulnerable to wasteland. However, I was able to win multiple games in both events of the Jitte, and won two matches off of a tutored crucible as well. I'm enjoying MD chalice a lot, and trimmed a lot of my biggest top-end cards (kiki, 4th ringleader, krenko, settler) to accomodate a different build.

    I have really only been struggling against delver, especially Wrenn + Six delver. Where are we at with fighting through goyfs+wasteland?

  6. #1826
    Member
    jrw1985's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Location

    Kapa'a HI
    Posts

    412

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    What’s your list?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #1827

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    [deck]
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    3 Goblin Warchief
    3 Goblin Ringleader
    3 Goblin Engineer
    3 Munitions Expert
    2 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    1 Goblin Piledriver
    1 Goblin Chainwhirler

    4 Aether Vial
    3 Chalice of the Void
    3 Chrome Mox
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    4 Great Furnace
    4 Wasteland
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Badlands
    3 Fetchland
    1 Mountain
    1 Volrath's Stronghold

    Sideboard
    1 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Plague Engineer
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Pyrokinesis
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Warren Wierding
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 ??
    [/deck]

  8. #1828
    Site Contributor
    ScatmanX's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2008
    Posts

    762

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I'm case anyone missed it, here's mines, Eli's, Olaf's and Steven's takes on the new cards.
    https://thesaltminesite.com/2019/07/...dern-horizons/

    Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  9. #1829
    Member
    jrw1985's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Location

    Kapa'a HI
    Posts

    412

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @egoblinsw

    Cool list! I like the artifact package. What I dont like is how Engineer needs a Warchief, but it is what it is. I ran basically the exact same artifact package in my EDH Goblins deck. You might want to cut 1-2 Chalice to make room for more land drops. Relic of Progenitus is a great SB card for Goyf and W6 and it works well with the Engineer.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #1830

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    @egoblinsw

    Cool list! I like the artifact package. What I dont like is how Engineer needs a Warchief, but it is what it is. I ran basically the exact same artifact package in my EDH Goblins deck. You might want to cut 1-2 Chalice to make room for more land drops. Relic of Progenitus is a great SB card for Goyf and W6 and it works well with the Engineer.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My only problem with relic is that it exiles itself, so you can't reuse it like crypt. That said, the cantrip is nice. I think I want to cut the moxen for a combination of mountain and darksteel citadel. I think having enough non-wasteable sources is important, but also feel the need to keep up the artifact count. Mox is consistently asking for a card I don't really have from my hand.

  11. #1831

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    I'm case anyone missed it, here's mines, Eli's, Olaf's and Steven's takes on the new cards.
    https://thesaltminesite.com/2019/07/...dern-horizons/

    Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
    Listened this morning, and was surprised how high on sling-gang everyone is. I hadn't tried it yet, but I want to now. Are you playing it over Siege-Gang, or do you think one of each is better? My list is also running out of space a few years ago.

  12. #1832

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by egoblinsw View Post
    Listened this morning, and was surprised how high on sling-gang everyone is. I hadn't tried it yet, but I want to now. Are you playing it over Siege-Gang, or do you think one of each is better? My list is also running out of space a few years ago.
    Sling-gang is so better than Siege-Gang, it's an entire different field. SGL has won by himself an incredible number of games where no other cards could have done anything in time, and has many function that SGC doesn't have (racing TNN or reaching 21+ life vs Depths, for example). You have to try it to understand, really one of the strongest addition at the deck.

    Anyway, cool list with engineer, i've thinkered (lol) with him too when it was spoiled, then the meta is shifted away from too many combos on MTGO so i've left it. I was trying something way more heavy, bc one of the main problem i founded was
    1) It's slow
    2) Often you don't have an artifact to switch even if it survives

    So i would try this list: MD Chalice is a must rn for me, i've made a 5-0 at the yesterday league on mtgo thx to him

    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Trinisphere

    4 Goblin Matron
    2 Goblin Ringleader
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    4 Goblin Engineer
    1 Pashalik Mons
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    3 Munitions Expert
    1 Legion Warboss
    3 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
    1 Goblin Piledriver
    1 Gempalm Incinerator

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Great Furnace
    1 Vault of Whispers
    3 Badlands
    3 Mox Opal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Aether Vial

    1 Warren Weirding

    Sideboard

    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Damping Sphere
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Stingscourger
    2 Plague Engineer
    3 Blood Moon
    1 Surgical Extraction

  13. #1833

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    So i would try this list: MD Chalice is a must rn for me, i've made a 5-0 at the yesterday league on mtgo thx to him

    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Trinisphere

    4 Goblin Matron
    2 Goblin Ringleader
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    4 Goblin Engineer
    1 Pashalik Mons
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    3 Munitions Expert
    1 Legion Warboss
    3 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
    1 Goblin Piledriver
    1 Gempalm Incinerator

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Great Furnace
    1 Vault of Whispers
    3 Badlands
    3 Mox Opal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Aether Vial

    1 Warren Weirding

    Sideboard

    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Damping Sphere
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Stingscourger
    2 Plague Engineer
    3 Blood Moon
    1 Surgical Extraction
    Not sure Im ready to go lackeyless...

    I seem to remember the dredge math being ~ 13 cards to best optimize having one dredger / discard outlet. That's what I was aiming for with my list (14 0-1 mana artifacts)'
    Jitte is much better than SOFI IMO... did you try it out?

  14. #1834

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by egoblinsw View Post
    Not sure Im ready to go lackeyless...

    I seem to remember the dredge math being ~ 13 cards to best optimize having one dredger / discard outlet. That's what I was aiming for with my list (14 0-1 mana artifacts)'
    Jitte is much better than SOFI IMO... did you try it out?
    I've been playing lackeyless for months now, it's not really its meta bw W&6, Engineer, Tarmogoyf and so on =/
    Jitte could absolutely be better than Sofi, that's the "equip" slot we can say

  15. #1835
    Site Contributor
    ScatmanX's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2008
    Posts

    762

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by egoblinsw View Post
    Listened this morning, and was surprised how high on sling-gang everyone is. I hadn't tried it yet, but I want to now. Are you playing it over Siege-Gang, or do you think one of each is better? My list is also running out of space a few years ago.
    Yeah, Sling-gang is miles better than sgc. The life gain, not having to pay mana, being a 4 drop... Everything matters so much in so many different situations, it's hardly a fair comparison anymore in my book.

    Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  16. #1836
    Member
    jrw1985's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Location

    Kapa'a HI
    Posts

    412

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    Yeah, Sling-gang is miles better than sgc. The life gain, not having to pay mana, being a 4 drop... Everything matters so much in so many different situations, it's hardly a fair comparison anymore in my book.

    Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
    I cut SGC long ago because 5cmc is just too expensive. Sling-Gang has been an incredible replacement.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #1837
    Member
    jrw1985's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Location

    Kapa'a HI
    Posts

    412

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    This Goblins thread has been too dead for too long! Wrenn & Six is no more, so you can play Lackey on the draw again. I've been having a great time and a lot of success playing goblins on MTGO recently, even before the Wrenn ban, and I think Goblins should be decently positioned post-ban. My favorite recent additions to the deck include a 25 land manabase, Wort, Chirgurgeon and RB Grenzo. Now the question is, what will be MVP post-Wrenn?

  18. #1838

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Lands
    4 Waste
    4 Port
    4 Cavern
    3 Mountain
    3 Badlands
    5 Fetchlands
    [23]

    Core Engine
    4 Vial
    4 Lackey
    4 Matron
    4 Ringleader
    [39]

    Core Toolbox
    1 Chirurgeon
    1 Expert
    1 Cratermaker
    1 MWM
    1 Stingscourger
    3 Rabblemaster
    1 Chieftain
    1 Mons
    1 Gempalm
    1 Sling
    1 Lightning Crafter
    1 Trashmaster
    1 Earwig Squad
    2 Warren Weirding
    [56]

    Tech Slots
    1 Tarfire
    1 Chainwhirler / Sharpshooter
    2 of any: Cratermaker#2 / Expert#2 / Sparksmith

    Without Wrenn in the format small creatures may make a comeback, so Shooter and Sparksmith become more appealing because they handle small creatures and you don't have to worry about them dying to Wrenn. Possibly Mons makes these unnecessary. (It should at least mean for sure you don't need both shooter and whirler). Unfortunately Plague Engineer is still a thing though

    I may be convinced to play at least one Piledriver now even though I have been against it for a while, depending on the significance of protection from Oko. Possibly this is irrelevant because Driver still doesn't line up very well against free 3/3s. (Interestingly if your opponent makes their Astrolabe into an Elk you can't Cratermaker it anymore either because it becomes green). I have seen some people cutting Trash from the main but maybe it should find its way back because it seems like an effective way to break through Astro/Food spam (Baleful Strix may make a bit of a comeback also)

  19. #1839
    Member
    jrw1985's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Location

    Kapa'a HI
    Posts

    412

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I dig the list. You on MTGO? If so, what's your handle? I'm super creative with mine (jrw985).
    Your list should treat you well. One suggestion though: Ancient Tomb! You're running Rabblemaster, Cratermaker, Matron and Earwig Squad. AT enables T2 plays and really speeds you up. I think you should 100% cut 2 Ports for 2 Tombs and will be happy with the results.
    For your flex slots, my experience lately with 2 Tarfires has been excellent. It is a clean answer to Plague Engineer and so much more. To that end, I would not play Sharpshooter because it plays into Engineer too well for your opponent. I also wouldn't run Chainwhirler because of the mana requirements.
    I don't know if Sparksmith will be good (looks too slow to deal with Arcanist), but I like running multiple Cratermaker over multiple ME (Crater is better against Engineer and Equipment).

  20. #1840

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    I dig the list. You on MTGO? If so, what's your handle? I'm super creative with mine (jrw985).
    Your list should treat you well. One suggestion though: Ancient Tomb! You're running Rabblemaster, Cratermaker, Matron and Earwig Squad. AT enables T2 plays and really speeds you up. I think you should 100% cut 2 Ports for 2 Tombs and will be happy with the results.
    For your flex slots, my experience lately with 2 Tarfires has been excellent. It is a clean answer to Plague Engineer and so much more. To that end, I would not play Sharpshooter because it plays into Engineer too well for your opponent. I also wouldn't run Chainwhirler because of the mana requirements.
    I don't know if Sparksmith will be good (looks too slow to deal with Arcanist), but I like running multiple Cratermaker over multiple ME (Crater is better against Engineer and Equipment).
    I've thought about playing tomb and think it could definitely be a good idea, unsure if it would be worth replacing ports but worth considering.
    I do play MTGO but only pauper at the moment.
    More cratermakers seems like the most safe option: the other thing I don't like about playing too many Expert is the RB manacost

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)