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Thread: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

  1. #21

    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I think I'm in the minority on this board, but I feel like in situations like the one you described, I err on the side of more time rather than less. I know I personally ought to play faster, but I also feel that if:

    - this is the decisive turn of the match
    - there is a non-zero amount of time on the clock
    - each of you has a win, so the opponent can't stall his way to a win
    - whether or not you win or lose is mostly on the table, presuming optimal play (in this case, you were able to identify the correct attack, so as long as your hand didn't have any surprises, he should've been able to as well)

    then it's fine to take some more time. If he takes a long time, and makes the correct attack, he wins, right - he took the time to carefully consider his options and played optimally, which is all we can really ask of our opponents. If he makes the wrong attack, he spent some time, and it didn't matter, because he was unable to take the correct line, allowing you to win, also good. If it really is a decisive turn, even if you go to time, you get some extra turns to decide it, and the match will still still end decisively.

    Sometimes it feels like many of the posters here want their matches, including ones that go 2-1, to end in half an hour or less. For me, it seems like as long as the match ended before time is called, what does it matter the pace? If all the games end however Magic games are supposed to end, no one gets any points for being the quickest to pass the turn.
    I think the big issue is what a reasonable amount of time per decision is given a constantly changing number of factors. It's just going to be different for everyone. Maybe the solution to this is have a set amount of time that a turn can last, but that is just going to cause more headaches.


    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    This is something that, without changing the existing slow play rule, we can and need to fix. Many counter-heavy players already kinda do something about it, too. It's not uncommon to see a blue player stick out their hand and say, "thinking" to acknowledge that something has been put on the stack while not yet saying that the spell or ability will resolve.

    When I'm not playing against those more considerate players, how long should I wait? At Eternal Weekend, playing Tin Fins, a player Show and Told in my Grisselbrand. I untapped, drew, played a Dark Ritual, and sat for what felt like 15 seconds. With no response, I announced that there was BBB in my pool and moved the Ritual to the graveyard. I played another spell. This time I counted to myself. After five seconds, I again announced the result of the spell and moved the card to my graveyard. After repeating this a few times, I started playing as if my opponent had announced that they were yielding to anything. How long should I have waited on the first spell? What about the second? Or the fifteenth?

    Chalice of the Void brings a similar issue. I've played against a lot of prison players who aren't used to responding to things. When I play into a Chalice and they don't immediately announce their trigger, how long should I wait for them to either announce it or say that my spell is going to resolve? I certainly don't want to ask them if it resolves because I don't want to give them any hints that they should maybe counter the thing.
    Can't you just solve this with simple communication? I know that this isn't ideal considering there are situations where you can use your knowledge of your deck/the game to gain an advantage in the matchup e.g. resolving spells under a chalice. I've resorted to constantly asking my opponent if a spell or trigger has resolved and if they say something like thinking I give them a little while before badgering them again. I've been burned too many times by trying to wait only for my opponent to finally them finally respond when I assumed a game action of mine had resolved, had a judge called and have the judge not rule in my favor.

  2. #22
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Don't you think the Pope would rather play...Miracles?
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  3. #23

    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Slow play is an issue in MTG in general, maybe even more so in legacy because people just don't play that many games/events so they are naturally more slow in processing game plays. Not that this excuses them much, just saying..

    If an opponent plays at somehow reasonable pace all game and stops to think a bit harder during on of those crucial turn I would almost call it unsportly to start reminding my opponent of slow play and calling judge after 60 seconds. I would consider it even more unsportly if my opponent would start reminding/terrorizing me every 15 seconds interrupting my thought process, even more so in the presence of a judge. But as said this is only "true", when a player keeps playing at reasonable pace throughout the game and just make one, two (or very few) "deep tanks" during crucial turns.

    However, if the player is playing at slow pace every single turn and takes even longer at crucial turns then yes, I would also call a judge and let him handle it without any further reminder to my opponent (while in the presence of a judge - he is the authority nonetheless).

    It is also true that judges are not adequately trained on this topic and Magic as general doesn't have a good consensus/grip on what slow paly is and how to handle time per decision making in regards to game status. Until Wizards/Judge community don't address this issue more seriously (at least at competitive level) I don't see us (players) collectively achieving much, other than creating few self-proclaimed "experts" who will go around timing (terrorizing) every single opponent move. For the awareness to really kick in call for a change needs to come from top to bottom and not the other way around (especially with rules being so openly written right now..).

  4. #24

    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Zooligan View Post
    Maybe tournament play needs individual timers like MTGO, implemented like a chess clock. You both get half the match time, and the decisions to which you allot it are up to you. Once you are out of time, if your opponent still has time, that's that.
    can you imagine how ridiculous would be the actual going to time?... Miracles players already "miraclously" speed up in last turns of the game, timing people on triggers in RL would lead into some really heated stuff... also how would player communication/judge calls and so on work then?
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  5. #25
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    One possibility for so much slow play is people going from small events at their locals to larger ones. Playing Doomsday at my local, people know me, know my deck choice and often are too helpful in giving me more decision time (which in one way is great, but in others actually hampers my ability to have to make quick decisions). This jump from one scene to another may be quite a step for those used to the friendlier confines.

    Having made the jump at Prague this year. I found myself playing quickly but not rushing and people being quite friendly and lenient on one or two decisions I could have been called to speed up on but obviously everyone is different.
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  6. #26

    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    When I'm not playing against those more considerate players, how long should I wait? At Eternal Weekend, playing Tin Fins, a player Show and Told in my Grisselbrand. I untapped, drew, played a Dark Ritual, and sat for what felt like 15 seconds. With no response, I announced that there was BBB in my pool and moved the Ritual to the graveyard. I played another spell. This time I counted to myself. After five seconds, I again announced the result of the spell and moved the card to my graveyard. After repeating this a few times, I started playing as if my opponent had announced that they were yielding to anything. How long should I have waited on the first spell? What about the second? Or the fifteenth?

    Chalice of the Void brings a similar issue. I've played against a lot of prison players who aren't used to responding to things. When I play into a Chalice and they don't immediately announce their trigger, how long should I wait for them to either announce it or say that my spell is going to resolve? I certainly don't want to ask them if it resolves because I don't want to give them any hints that they should maybe counter the thing.
    Simple question. Can't you just ask "ok ?" (or "resolves ?", or whatever) each and every time you put a spell on the stack (and don't intend to keep priority of course) ? Either right then, or after a couple seconds if there's absolutely no reaction from the opponent. At least you'll have an answer - yes, no, or thinking - that you know how to deal with.

    Not only should it solve your problem (?), but if it's systematic and natural, it won't raise suspicion when it is also asked in front of a Chalice. Although since Chalice is a mandatory trigger, even if the opponent misses it, you're obligated to remind him of it, so I'm not really sure what gain there'd be to expect.
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  7. #27

    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    I think 30 seconds is on the short end. Normally if an opponent doesn't make a play within 60 seconds I will ask them what they are doing. There are spots where more time is needed but as the judges you asked said people should be planning ahead unless the board state dramatically changes. This weekend in modern one of my opponents got a prompt from a judge after thinking for 1-2 minutes. Was this warranted probably but a couple of turns earlier I had also tanked for a couple of minutes and when I passed the turn with about 16 mintues left I made the comment to him that this game(game 3) is probably going to end in about 4 turns and we both proceeded to take 1-2 minutes on each of our next few turns.

    I think your biggest mistake was not calling a judge earlier in the process. You should be able to make decisions in a timely manner and if you/they continually do not do so a judge needs to be involved. People tend not to speed up when the opponent is asked and only when a judge is asked. While you did eventually ask for a judge you made it sound like he was not comfortable. At that point you could ask the judge to see if another judge would be able to watch for slow play (which could lead to a penalty for essentially disrespecting a judge) or another option is when you call over the judge write down the time left in the round(I'd try and make sure judge sees or verbally say there is X time left). And after 60 seconds I would say something to the judge. If he responds with a complicated board state you should say that shouldn't affect a slow play decision and the board has not significantly changed from previous turns. Yes people hate making slow play calls and tend to be more lenient in Legacy but they won't stop unless players keep pushing the issue. Also after the round you should probably have talked to the head judge about both your opponent and the judge. While to late for you he could educate his fellow judge and also keep an eye on your opponent and if he is playing slow either speed him up or game loss/match loss him out with enough slow play warnings

    I've been called for slow play before and I am normally a pretty fast player. It isn't easy for the judges either because they sometimes come in at the most complicated time when you do truly need to spend a couple of minutes on the board and/or tank. But if you need to tank you can even after being warned to make a play. Just realize you will get a slow play warning which will only matter if you proceed to get more.
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  8. #28
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    Simple question. Can't you just ask "ok ?" (or "resolves ?", or whatever) each and every time you put a spell on the stack (and don't intend to keep priority of course) ? Either right then, or after a couple seconds if there's absolutely no reaction from the opponent. At least you'll have an answer - yes, no, or thinking - that you know how to deal with.
    You have no idea how many times I sat across a dude not answering that simple question for 10+ seconds.

    The joke is that if you simply proceed and the other guy/gal decides to do something while the next spell is already on the stack its becoming a mess involving the Judge, you returning the second spell to your hand and the opponent getting the gamestate rewinded AND the additional information about your hand and plan.

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  9. #29
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    30 seconds is super short. Just for refernce i tbought id add that hearthstone turns are 1 min 30 seconds. I know the games arnt the same, blah blah blah but as i said its just a reference.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    30 seconds is super short.
    If we could do away with that idea, that would already be progress towards a better playing environment. Nobody is gonna give you a Slow Play Warning after 30 seconds, but that's pretty much when you already start venturing into "this guy should really start doing something now" territory.

    There's no fixed duration of time you can take. And that for good reason, as others have pointed out. Having a fixed time would open the doors to even more widespread time issues. It's already bad enough as it is right now.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    how would player communication/judge calls and so on work then?
    In Warmachine, the clock continues running on the active player's turn as a kind of "you should know what your shit does." Obviously, in a miniatures game, things are a bit different though. Most judge calls in MTG seem to come from the opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    Simple question. Can't you just ask "ok ?" (or "resolves ?", or whatever) each and every time you put a spell on the stack (and don't intend to keep priority of course) ? Either right then, or after a couple seconds if there's absolutely no reaction from the opponent. At least you'll have an answer - yes, no, or thinking - that you know how to deal with.

    Not only should it solve your problem (?), but if it's systematic and natural, it won't raise suspicion when it is also asked in front of a Chalice. Although since Chalice is a mandatory trigger, even if the opponent misses it, you're obligated to remind him of it, so I'm not really sure what gain there'd be to expect.
    Especially in the case I mentioned, I feel weird against this because it feels a lot like I'm rubbing in that I'm about to crush the guy.

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    30 seconds is super short. Just for refernce i tbought id add that hearthstone turns are 1 min 30 seconds. I know the games arnt the same, blah blah blah but as i said its just a reference.
    I'm not a particularily fast player, and in my experience 30 seconds is plenty to figure out a plan for action for most turns. I'd detest it as an absolute cap, but it's easily enough thinking time on most boardstates.
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  14. #34

    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    They should treat draws as losses for both players, and perhaps even subtract a point as a punishment for delaying the logistics of the tournament organizer. That incentivizes people to avoid drawing. This way, Miracle won't remain a popular deck for people that are not able to play it quickly. The draws will force most miracle players to the bottom of the ranking, while the true masters will still make top 8's. This solves not only slow play, but also the time cost of cards like Sensei's Divining Top.

    Also, if you constantly get into problems against miracle players, play revokers/needles/null rod and discard effects

  15. #35

    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    Chalice of the Void brings a similar issue. I've played against a lot of prison players who aren't used to responding to things. When I play into a Chalice and they don't immediately announce their trigger, how long should I wait for them to either announce it or say that my spell is going to resolve? I certainly don't want to ask them if it resolves because I don't want to give them any hints that they should maybe counter the thing.
    Last I checked this is explicitly cheating and should get you a DQ.



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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatusnox View Post
    Last I checked this is explicitly cheating and should get you a DQ.
    Its not. You are free to cast anything you like, it is my job as the Stax player to remember that I have a relevant effect in play.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatusnox View Post
    Last I checked this is explicitly cheating and should get you a DQ.
    The intended tricking of the opponent to not respond to spells cast right into Chalice is something is saw and heared about plenty of times.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    So in the case of the Chalice, what am I to do? Do I put my spell on the stack and stare at my opponent's face until he either responds or time expires?

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    So in the case of the Chalice, what am I to do? Do I put my spell on the stack and stare at my opponent's face until he either responds or time expires?
    don't you get a grv for intentionally allowing a missed trigger?
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    don't you get a grv for intentionally allowing a missed trigger?
    No. You can cast into a Chalice, its on the controller to remember the trigger.

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