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Thread: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by thefringthing View Post
    The original trigger rules. If the effect says "may do X", you may do X but don't have to. If the effect says "do X" and you don't, you get a warning for missing a trigger. If your opponent misses a trigger you have to point it out so they can get a warning, or else you get failure to maintain. Accrue enough missed trigger warnings and you start getting game losses, match losses, DQs, whatever. Apparently this was too much work for judges (too bad), people don't like having to point out opponent's missed triggers when it's in their favour (too bad), and WotC thinks new players don't know what the word "may" means (what?).
    This doesn't solve the problem you're complaining about at all. And I even just explained that.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    I was never complaining about the "Kibler situation" but obviously in that situation you ask to talk to a judge away from the table and find out whether the trigger is "may do X" or "do X".

    To return to the issue of slow play, I wonder whether judges' reticence to employ the rule is a consequence of the rule's vagueness. I agree with the sentiments of some of the other posters here that it would be nice if the rule could somehow take into account the fact that some parts of a game are very routine and others very complex, but doing that in a consistent and objective way seems pretty tough.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    But I guess that's the sportsman or nerd in me. Kibler should've lost. He knew it. IMO that situation shows why that rule shouldn't have been changed.
    *He lost*, but won the prize.

    I realize I'm in the minority here; but I can't just see the 'kibler situation' used as an anecdote for the other side of the argument, because it perfectly displays the problem with the current rule. *He lost.* If they played in MTGO; he'd lose, guaranteed.

    The rule at this point favors greed over sportsmanship. The argument in favor of kibler seems to be "but there was a few thousand bucks he would win as long as no one noticed!" That's not how games should work, or else we wouldn't mind the other forms of cheating (like that shuffling guy who made you topdeck a bunch of lands.) What at that point makes the Ancestral Brainstorm that people didn't notice illegal? There was $1000's on the line! All he had to do was purposely change the way the card affected the game so that the outcome was favorable.

    Again, I accept it, but it seems stupid to win games you have no reason winning. It's not a lucky topdeck or a real flop by your opponent, it's ignoring the gamestate and getting away with it.

    Putting it another way, if he called a judge, walked a ways away, had the judge look up the card, etc.. he wouldn't point out the trigger or look at the card in an incriminating way, and the judge would get to tell him that he lost. No one under that ruleset who saw the trigger would believe that Kibler would win.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    But I guess that's the sportsman or nerd in me. Kibler should've lost. He knew it. IMO that situation shows why that rule shouldn't have been changed.
    *He lost*, but won the prize.

    I realize I'm in the minority here; but I can't just see the 'kibler situation' used as an anecdote for the other side of the argument, because it perfectly displays the problem with the current rule. *He lost.* If they played in MTGO; he'd lose, guaranteed.

    The rule at this point favors greed over sportsmanship. The argument in favor of kibler seems to be "but there was a few thousand bucks he would win as long as no one noticed!" That's not how games should work, or else we wouldn't mind the other forms of cheating (like that shuffling guy who made you topdeck a bunch of lands.) What at that point makes the Ancestral Brainstorm that people didn't notice illegal? There was $1000's on the line! All he had to do was purposely change the way the card affected the game so that the outcome was favorable.

    Again, I accept it, but it seems stupid to win games you have no reason winning. It's not a lucky topdeck or a real flop by your opponent, it's ignoring the gamestate and getting away with it.

    Putting it another way, if he called a judge, walked a ways away, had the judge look up the card, etc.. he wouldn't point out the trigger or look at the card in an incriminating way, and the judge would get to tell him that he lost. No one under that ruleset who saw the trigger would believe that Kibler would win.
    Except that all he has to do is claim he missed it too. There's no way to prove that one guy saw that trigger and chose not to say anything when apparently a room full of people, including judges there just to watch that match, missed it. Human error is always going to be a factor in a game this complex. The only way to guarantee all the game rules are followed correctly is to move competitive play to a digital format. Maybe someday Wizards will hire real developers and these high-profile matches can play out in some kind of AR system.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Except that all he has to do is claim he missed it too. There's no way to prove that one guy saw that trigger and chose not to say anything when apparently a room full of people, including judges there just to watch that match, missed it. Human error is always going to be a factor in a game this complex. The only way to guarantee all the game rules are followed correctly is to move competitive play to a digital format. Maybe someday Wizards will hire real developers and these high-profile matches can play out in some kind of AR system.
    Going full circle to the original topic; it's the only thing that also happens to solve the slow play issue in a nice way. [haven't used it, feel free to tell me that mtgo's priority system is actually a sack of garbage]

    And even so, I can't see myself ever getting into MTGO lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    I'm on the side of, being able to remember all of your triggers is a skill. I am fine with the current iteration of the rules.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I'm on the side of, being able to remember all of your triggers is a skill. I am fine with the current iteration of the rules.
    As someone who played with Chalice in Legacy since before it was cool (Eldrazi), I agree. If you sneak a spell past my Chalice because I wasn't paying attention, you earned its resolution.

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Slow play is hard, the way I see it is to just be a decent person whichever side of the table your on.

    People have to remember that not everyone has been playing for 15+ years and playing against a skilled elves player would be intimidating imo. All the creature interactions tapping untapping bouncing replaying floating mana fuck..... Gives me a headache just thinking about it.

    And if it was a close game I'm sure most people would slow down a bit to try and minimize mistakes. This is normal. And that player shouldn't really feel pressured to hurry and make a play.

    Remember you don't know what the other player is thinking give them a break, something that is "simple" or "obvious" to you may not be to your opp.

    The one thing that does suck, is when people purposely drag their feet to get a draw because they are salty. Like I said slowplay is a hard subject to deal with and I can see why judges are reserved about handing out warnings.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by jake556
    The one thing that does suck, is when people purposely drag their feet to get a draw because they are salty. Like I said slowplay is a hard subject to deal with and I can see why judges are reserved about handing out warnings.
    Of course its kinda normal to take "more time" if gamestates are complex, but there is a gap between finding it acceptable as player/judge that declaring attackers takes two minutes, every Brainstorm takes 3 minutes and on the other hand dealing/receiving slowplay warnings after 2 minutes during a combo turn in the storm vs Delver matchup
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    I think part of the problem is that people forget they also have time to think during their opponents' turn. I usually spend my opponents' turn planning my next one(s). If I'm playing a combo deck, I'm looking at what lines I'll have the next turn or what I'll need to create a certain line, and so on. It's part of why I can play at a rather quick pace.

    I understand MtG is a complex game, but it isn't a matter of life and death. Especially at locals, but even there you see people spending literal minutes on Brainstorms, Ponders and Top activations. It's so annoying. It's a fucking game, treat it like one dammit. Have fun, go wild, see whatever crazy shit happens.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by jake556 View Post
    Slow play is hard, the way I see it is to just be a decent person whichever side of the table your on.

    People have to remember that not everyone has been playing for 15+ years and playing against a skilled elves player would be intimidating imo. All the creature interactions tapping untapping bouncing replaying floating mana fuck..... Gives me a headache just thinking about it.

    And if it was a close game I'm sure most people would slow down a bit to try and minimize mistakes. This is normal. And that player shouldn't really feel pressured to hurry and make a play.

    Remember you don't know what the other player is thinking give them a break, something that is "simple" or "obvious" to you may not be to your opp.

    The one thing that does suck, is when people purposely drag their feet to get a draw because they are salty. Like I said slowplay is a hard subject to deal with and I can see why judges are reserved about handing out warnings.
    That's a part of why the shanges to Slow Play effectively banned the Four Horsemen deck out of existence. It's a combo deck that has to go through a certain number of iterations (which is potentially an arbitraily large number) before comboing off. That means that it can take a long time to win with it.

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I think part of the problem is that people forget they also have time to think during their opponents' turn. I usually spend my opponents' turn planning my next one(s). If I'm playing a combo deck, I'm looking at what lines I'll have the next turn or what I'll need to create a certain line, and so on. It's part of why I can play at a rather quick pace.

    I understand MtG is a complex game, but it isn't a matter of life and death. Especially at locals, but even there you see people spending literal minutes on Brainstorms, Ponders and Top activations. It's so annoying. It's a fucking game, treat it like one dammit. Have fun, go wild, see whatever crazy shit happens.
    This is one of the reasons I love Prison strategies. "You have exactly zero ways you can impact this board state, are you willing to concede, or an I going to kill you with this Mishra's Factory/ Marit Lage?"
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by jake556 View Post
    Slow play is hard, the way I see it is to just be a decent person whichever side of the table your on.

    People have to remember that not everyone has been playing for 15+ years and playing against a skilled elves player would be intimidating imo. All the creature interactions tapping untapping bouncing replaying floating mana fuck..... Gives me a headache just thinking about it.

    And if it was a close game I'm sure most people would slow down a bit to try and minimize mistakes. This is normal. And that player shouldn't really feel pressured to hurry and make a play.

    Remember you don't know what the other player is thinking give them a break, something that is "simple" or "obvious" to you may not be to your opp.
    Jake, you really seem like a nice guy and I whole-heartedly agree with your analysis of the situation.

    But nothing of it is relevant for the infraction that is Slow Play.

    What you are talking about is the player's character. That one shouldn't fault them for the reason WHY they are being slow. That however is nothing that the rules are concerned with (outside of distiguishing Slow Play from Stalling.) The Slow Play rule doesn't care why your are unitentionally playing slow. It only cares about that you do. And therefore hands you an infraction.

    After all, Slow Play didn't provide an unfair advantage to one of the players. The fact that they are new or unfamiliar with their opponent's deck shouldn't provide them with such an advantage. In fact, in the spirit of competitive play, inexperience is a real disadvantage that we shouldn't try to artificially decrease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenslight View Post
    That's a part of why the shanges to Slow Play effectively banned the Four Horsemen deck out of existence.
    What Slow Play change are you referring to? Four Horsemen has never been viable, rules-wise.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    This is one of the reasons I love Prison strategies. "You have exactly zero ways you can impact this board state, are you willing to concede, or an I going to kill you with this Mishra's Factory/ Marit Lage?"
    Hey, that's all fair game as far as I'm concerned. Just as long as you don't take hours to think of whether you concede or not. Either go "Meh, you win" or go "Draw, go" and make your opponent kill you. The fact that you can't kill your opponent anymore doesn't automatically mean he actually can kill you. But those turns shouldn't take you more than 10 seconds/turn (if even that). You don't have to concede. I mean, you paid to be there so you might as well enjoy the show, right?

    I did it a while back when I was on Manaless Dredge, vs an opponent on Enchantress. He locked me out of, well, everything (I was looking at Elephant Grass, Moat, Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace, lol) so I just discarded Progenitus to handsize every turn until he finally got his kill. It was either that, or I'd deck him after enough turns. I had an out so I went for it, lol.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    In fact, in the spirit of competitive play, inexperience is a real disadvantage that we shouldn't try to artificially decrease.
    Jup, leave that to WotC and their NWO of removing all cardtypes but Lands, Planeswalkers and Creatures
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I think part of the problem is that people forget they also have time to think during their opponents' turn.
    This is a massive problem in all games, not just Magic. I stopped bringing my phone to board game day because people see me on my phone and think I'm goofing off when it's not my turn but I've actually already decided my turn minutes in advance. Then they pull out their phone and start doing what they think I'm doing and when they look up to play, they have no idea what's going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenslight View Post
    That's a part of why the shanges to Slow Play effectively banned the Four Horsemen deck out of existence. It's a combo deck that has to go through a certain number of iterations (which is potentially an arbitraily large number) before comboing off. That means that it can take a long time to win with it.
    It's worth noting that Four Horsemen is a very special case in that its loop is non-deterministic. IE, it is possible that you will continue executing the loop from now until the day you die without ever hitting the desired state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    This is one of the reasons I love Prison strategies. "You have exactly zero ways you can impact this board state, are you willing to concede, or an I going to kill you with this Mishra's Factory/ Marit Lage?"
    Prison can also "abuse" the clock. I've seen so many matches go 1-0-1 because the non-prison player spends so much time in game one trying to get out of a nigh-unbeatable situation rather than conceding and going to another game that they might be able to win. I've definitely been on the prison side of the equation and not mentioned the potential for the opponent to concede so that I could burn more clock with them locked out.

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    ... I've definitely been on the prison side of the equation and not mentioned the potential for the opponent to concede so that I could burn more clock with them locked out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    This is one of the reasons I love Prison strategies. "You have exactly zero ways you can impact this board state, are you willing to concede, or an I going to kill you with this Mishra's Factory/ Marit Lage?"

    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    The easy fix is that if a chessclock would actually help, SCG could build that functionality into their app. Probably take a programmer less than a day.
    I was just thinking the same thing. Some sort of modfied chess clock app modeled after the mtgo system, where players can opt out of receiving priority, might actually be possible. I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss this kind of solution and with most people owning smart devices, it could be easily implimented. Regardless of how idealistic it may sound, it does seem like the fairest system.

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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Re: SLOW PLAY - Why I stood up & left the table

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins View Post
    I was just thinking the same thing. Some sort of modfied chess clock app modeled after the mtgo system, where players can opt out of receiving priority, might actually be possible. I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss this kind of solution and with most people owning smart devices, it could be easily implimented. Regardless of how idealistic it may sound, it does seem like the fairest system.
    And hit the clock every time you pass priority? This is simply not practical in paper MTG. Period
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