https://twitter.com/maro254/status/812042770957275137
Pretty interesting that he asks, given that he has no understanding how Legacy works.
I don't think he has no inkling of legacy. If you're designing magic for such a long time, you learn a lot by experience. I'm sure he knows a lot more about MTG related stuff than we do.Originally Posted by Barook
I sent a few emails to wotc employees for legendary duals back when they changed the legend rule. As he says, if it hasn't been done already it probably won't. They have no interest in legacy and support it at the bare minimum. If they ever print snow duals it will not be to make legacy sustainable, but because of some other reason (with $$$ included).
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I hate MaRo but he does kinda have a point. It may not be a huge concern in the *current* meta but who's to say a deck won't show up that would love to have access to 8 copies of a single duel. OTOH, maybe that's a good thing, giving better consistency and fixing to decks that aren't abusing cantrips/fetches. Pretty hard to predict though. The real solution to Legacy's Reserved List problems is to abolish or significantly change the Reserved list, AND reprint staple cards in quantities that will actually affect the price.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
The way I'm seeing it is Wizards are trying to do something about the most sought after pieces of reserved list for Legacy (duals) and we as a community dare to be picky and be like.. nah.. that won't solve the problem..
Or I'm reading it wrong (might be,m I didn't read that thorough)??
I don't know, with Maro asking this sort of questions we should only show immense support.
And in just my modest opinion and a bit of conspiracy theory, the fact that MaRo is asking this sort of questions now just indicates that sales are recently really dropping or they have identified other problems with MtG game/player sustainability.. why else would they be touching this topic after they so religiously avoided it for so long?
Why wouldn't a for profit company want to tap into a new or different player base/renenue source?The way I'm seeing it is Wizards are trying to do something about the most sought after pieces of reserved list for Legacy (duals) and we as a community dare to be picky and be like.. nah.. that won't solve the problem..
Or I'm reading it wrong (might be,m I didn't read that thorough)??
I don't know, with Maro asking this sort of questions we should only show immense support.
And in just my modest opinion and a bit of conspiracy theory, the fact that MaRo is asking this sort of questions now just indicates that sales are recently really dropping or they have identified other problems with MtG game/player sustainability.. why else would they be touching this topic after they so religiously avoided it for so long?
If they could keep the RL, relieve the burden there of, and make a new and attractive product, seems like a good business model.
Seems like MaRo is casting his net wide enough to let the small fry through
Legendary makes way more sense in something like Commander than snow. Snow is arguably better than normal duals given random shit like Skred, Scrying Shits and Into the North.
Tbh snow duals are functional reprints.
I completely disagree with this. Abolishing the Reserve List is not possible without inviting opportunistic lawsuits and general negativity from the collector crowd. Just look at California; two lawsuits are pending where judges are suing WotC under fair labor laws. Players/collector groups will probably make trouble. The result of the loss of confidence in giving up such an entrenched position is impossible to predict. This is a terrible idea from a business perspective.
And, the whole thing is a red herring. WotC can and does address the Reserve List by printing new cards. Not just cards that fullfill the same role exactly, though it does happen. (See Imperial Recruiter versus Conspiracy Recruiter). They print cards that compete with and are largely mutually exclusive with the older cards (See Eldrazi and their lands versus Mishra's Workshop).
"Snow Duals" are not strictly possible, since the definition of "functionally identical" that no one ever reads in these threads does not include supertypes. But, so what, it would be easy to print a non-functional dual land that would be situationally better or worse than the original dual lands. Power level concerns stay WotC's hand.
I'd argue that bashing your head against the Reserve List is not only useless, but even counter-productive. New cards mean more tensions in deck building, new archetypes, and new things to do. One fantastic example is the Dredge deck in Vintage. It sprang out of nowhere and established an entirely new pillar, one that largely does not even WANT to share cards with the older powered decks. Another example: Eldrazi in Legacy. WotC is doing a fantastic job printing new cards that enhance old decks AND create alternative strategies. Particularly in supplemental products, creativity among powerful cards has been at a high ebb for awhile now.
Let's thank WotC for what they're doing, not bash em by whining about the list for the 10000th time.
Right you are, but it's not a matter of opinion.
"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
This is the official definition. http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...icy-2010-03-10
Since supertype is not listed here, two cards otherwise identical but with different supertypes (snow) are functionally identical.
Now, there is a concept that pops up sometimes called the "spirit" of the Reserve List, but this is a squishy issue that is hard to pin down and is not part of the official policy.
You may have forgotten how wizards reacted to the shitstorm this card provokd by being a RL reprint just lacking to make the copy a red card and WotC insisting that its functionally completely different. So if they add the SNOW supertype to a Dual it has IN FACT different subtypes which are sufficient by WotCs own, crappy standard
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
Except it is functionally different by the very definition given, no matter how one might spin it. Some people just love to bitch.
You may have forgotten how wizards reacted to the shitstorm this card provokd by being a RL reprint just lacking to make the copy a red card and WotC insisting that its functionally completely different. So if they add the SNOW supertype to a Dual it has IN FACT different subtypes which are sufficient by WotCs own, crappy standard
Snow duals might not be the most elegant solution to the issue, but it would work. The whole "spirit of the RL" is even dumber than the RL itself.
If they want to avoid that issue, they could easily make duals with Commander-related abilities that play out the same for Eternal, but have different impact in Commander games. E.g.:
"When ~ ETB, if your commander is in your command zone or on the battlefield, every player may Scry 1."
Not strictly better or worse in Commander games as it depends on the situation whether you want your opponents to get a scry or not. "Political duals" are a pretty cool concept imho. Although it's questionable how to distribute those in a sane way, as Commander packs are out of question due to imbalance towards certain duals (see: TNN debacle).
If they made snow or legendary duals, it would slot really easily into Commander / Cube / Vintage / Legacy. It wouldn't be something they did just for legacy.
About this so called spirit of the reserved list. It's just a list of cards - we might instead discuss the spirit of the Card Reprint Policy.
Disclaimer: There might be a tiny bit of wishful thinking below, it is yuletide, after all.
In the beginning there was no reprint policy, then Chronicles happened, and Wizards of the Coast made an announcement regarding 1) Why they sometimes choose to reprint cards, and 2) A list of reserved cards they would promise to not reprint again in white or black border, now known as the RL. The RL (2) was a gesture aimed at the disgruntled collectors. On the list were mostly cards from Magic's original sets that had not been selected for inclusion in the future core sets anyway, and I believe that Wizards thought these cards would be of little more than historical interest in the future, and that competitive play would not be influenced by the RL. Remember this happened long before Legacy, and only right after the format seperation of Magic into Type 1 (now Vintage), and Type 2 (now Standard). I believe it was never the intention, or spirit, of the reprint policy to prevent people from playing with the cards, or to diminish any particular formats, known or unknown at the time. In fact, the very beginning of the original reprint policy annoucement (1) states the exact opposite:
THAT, in my opinion, is the spirit of the reprint policy.Magic: The Gathering Card Reprint Policy
March 4, 1996
Introduction
Wizards of the Coast understands that many of you were surprised by the
quantity and selection of cards from the Arabian Nights(R), Antiquities(R),
Legends(TM), and The Dark(TM) expansion sets that we reprinted in Magic:
The Gathering-Fourth Edition(TM) and Chronicles(TM). We have therefore
created this Magic: The Gathering(R) Card Reprint Policy to explain why we
choose to reprint cards and how many cards from which expansion sets you
can expect to see reprinted in future Magic products.
Why Magic Cards Are Reprinted
Magic: The Gathering has tremendous appeal both as a game and as a
collectible; however, Wizards of the Coast is a game company, and we
believe that Magic is first and foremost a supreme game of strategy and
skill. We choose to reprint certain cards from limited expansion sets in
products like Fourth Edition and Chronicles because we believe that the
cards we reprint make for enjoyable game play and that Magic players
deserve an opportunity to play with these cards.
New duals would also be a hit for Commander - and we do know that's a huge market they actually support.
I wouldn't be suprised if they tried to monetize duals in some way sooner or later. The insane growth percentages of MtG have come to end and Wizards can't simply ride the numbers from record year to record year based on a bigger player base alone. So they try to tap new markets to please the shareholders. That would probably also explain why we got Eternal Masters AND Conspiracy 2 in the same year.
Edit: Made a poll regarding snow duals:
https://twitter.com/Barook1985/statu...00579735814144
Looking at the official RL reprint policy, the "spirit of the Reserve List" pisses me off even more. First they made the RL which is later considered a huge mistake that can't be undone, then they even EXPAND on that mistake with silly new additions to the already mentioned fuck-up.
Then we hear Maro cry on social media that he can't use Thunder Spirit for Limited environments when all he has to do is make it a "Bird Soldier" with a fancy new name and be done with it.
Last edited by Barook; 12-25-2016 at 08:18 AM.
No, that's backward. If I add a different cat to my house it does not have IN FACT different dogs. Supertypes and subtypes are different things. You cannot print a snow dual, taken literally.
You CAN print a dual that happens to have basic land types and a snow type, but you need to do more to it. Add something to the rules text, for example. Adding "snow" by itself is verborten under the Reserve List.
Two things.
One, adding snow does getting around it. It's been confirmed in the past. I will try and dig that up later.
Two, they tested this already, they actually planed to release Snow Duals in Commander sets before they came up with Command Tower.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...e-the-reserved
Which is a bunch of horseshit, considering they could be fetched with Into the North and have interactions with Scrying Sheets and Skred, among other things.
But it wouldn't be the first time Maro is wrong and talks out of his ass.
Look, I don't pretend to know what things Maro has or has not said. The Reserve List policy is written down, anyone can read it, in black and white. It does not mention supertypes. If a card shared everything but a supertype, it would literally violate the plain language of the policy. If I was representing a class in a lawsuit on promissory estoppel, that'd be the best possible argument.
So, no, using the literal language of the Reserve List policy itself (not Maro's twitter feed) you cannot print dual lands identical to the first one except including a new supertype. You need to modify something else.
Same subtypes are also subject of the RL. E.g. a "Island Forest Lair" is functionally different from a Tropical Island. That's why I chose to mention the Thunder Spirit thing since it's a prime example of how stupid the whole "spirit of the RL" actually is.
I agree that Supertypes are still easier to do, though.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
