This was supposed to be released before next week's B/R update, but anyway. I spent too much time writing this to not release it, so here we go.
https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/01/...lin-recruiter/
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Good case for the little red guys and I liked how you tied it with the rest of the ban list.
A couple of cards could easily jump from the banlist without causing harm. But for that they(WotC) would have to care....
I still have my goblins lying around from way back. If recruiter would be unbanned, I'd sure give them another spin.
So. Fingers crossed.
EDIT: I liked your argument regarding Miracles. Pushing an unfavorable MU like goblins is a more elegant way to nerf it a bit, instead of wielding the banhammer on top/balance/Terminus etc.
Great article. I agree.
It's a pretty well documented fact that
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest
Mind Twist
Goblin Recruiter
could all be unbanned tomorrow without hurting the format. All it would do is give other decks a fighting chance to compete with Miracles and the other dominant decks in the format (Reanimator only popped up again because GY hate started becoming rarer, it's easy to hate out of the format again with or w/o WGD).
If Wizards gave a crap about the format or atleast took feedback from players (since they're not willing to test it for themselves), all seven cards would be paroled off the ban list and be given a righteous chance to prove themselves.
Land Tax, Black Vise and Dragon are already unbanned
I tend to think that recruiter is a relatively safe unban, but I'm not sure that it will really help goblins be more competitive when the greenskins are really more limited by the high efficiency creatures at the bottom end than by late game issues.
as much as i'm all for a recruiter unbanning, goblins in its current form is still pretty good. it does need 1 or 2 new goblins that could have some kind of effect on the game. but who knows, with them pushing cards like leovold and prelate, maybe it will happen at some point. people like goblins as a tribe.
-rob
I agree that we need to unban all of those cards. But without some changes to the system it' s going to take years for even one of those cards to come off. I think that if WotC doesnt care about Legacy and Vintage, they should give it off to people who actually do care about it to decided what gets banned and unbanned. I once suggested some sort of player voting system, but they could also hand it off to a business that actually makes money off these formats.
People writing essays about the B/R List without even knowing what's on the list is a time-honoured Source tradition.Land Tax, Black Vise and Dragon are already unbanned
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Just serves to prove my point. The other 4 could also get unbanned and no one would bat an eye. But wizards doesn't care enough to unban them.Land Tax, Black Vise and Dragon are already unbanned
Unless you are trying to get this thread locked you should stick to discussing the content of the article.
#stacking goblins
Great article, especially with all the penis jokes.
Agreed 100% that Recruiter is safe to unban. The best argument I've heard against it is that it's potentially a time waster, but as you mentioned, Doomsday is legal and doesn't exactly clog up tournaments.
As an Enchantress player, though, I'd still prefer to see Earthcraft as the next unban.
Yeah, I'd take off recruiter if I was in charge. Card is super good, but no better than other broken crap we get to play. Tutors for a number of Goblins for 1R, which all alone is worth the price of admission. Wins the game with Food Chain or Charbelcher, but since when do we care about five or six mana win conditions in Legacy.
Yes, but this is a card game for babies.I have decided that there are two kinds of people in this world – those that accept the world as it is, and those that want to see change, they want things improved upon and they want changes to make things better.
Good write-up! I would like to think WotC will finally listen, but...
"Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."
RGCL (GQ)
Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL
Let's talk about the article in question on a new Legacy focused site. Let's not rehash old debates that have forced me to lock threads and delete posts in the past. Because those actions taken in the past are a good indication of what my reaction is likely to be in the future.
Just a heads up.
I look forward to reading this when I wake.
Last edited by Dice_Box; 01-10-2017 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Redified text.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Cards that let you organize your entire library for 2 mana are broken, not fun to play against and terrible for tournament play. 'Maybe we should start letting people organize their entire deck again in competitive tournaments' is not something anyone will ever say at Wizards HQ. That's not something they even want to think about. If you want to play casual games with your friends, you can play 5 copies of Goblin Recruiter and they can have the pleasure of watching you organize your deck a bunch of times.
The fixation on the couple dozen poorly designed toys Wizards keeps you guys from playing with is so bizarre to me. You guys have something like 13,000 cards to brew with, forget about the forbidden fruit already.
Doomsday says hello. I mean, I guess it costs 3 mana...but still. Maybe swamps aren't your thing, and you're more of the Sensei's Diving Top sort of player. Or Jace + Brainstorm, or Brainstorm + Fetch Land. Then there's High Tide, which is essentially just reordering your deck until you've played enough cards to win. We could talk about TES/ANT/Belcher too, which are definitely a hoot to watch go off for 5 minutes in the hope that they actually got there. Remind me again how Recruiter is wasting more time than any of those?
I've been thinking about this and how would this card play out vs fair decks? I don't see it being a very fair card. If you compare it with show and tell, storm, and reanimator then it's definitely not overpowered, but when comparing with delver of secrets, deathrite shaman, and tarmogoyf I don't think they would have a great chance.
One thing worth trying is playing some free form matches on magic online and testing vs the usual suspects. I think this is the most objective way of measuring its power level in today's legacy.
-rob
I don't think you would even dick around with Food Chain, you can just play Glimpse of Nature. The deck can go off even if its only other source of mana is Skirk Prospector and Goblin tokens/schlocky Goblins (Matron, other Recruiters, anything that isn't a Piledriver or a Haste-granter).
A Glimpse deck that cannot fizzle unless countered (or its pilot is GOD awful and can't accurately stack they deck) is probably A Thing, but I sure haven't tested it. I would love to be able to play Goblins again, it would probably revitalize a lot of my interest in finding Legacy around here, but I feel like the Recruiter effect in and of itself is one of those effects that just can't exist in Magic on a long enough timeline without getting incidentally busted. It's kind of in the realm of Wizards' attempts at "fixing" Ancestral Recall; spells like Brainstorm, Treasure Cruise, Ponder, SDT on the fringes of similarity, and so on -- these things end up in the "too degenerate not to play whenever possible" pile (maybe Top isn't everywhere, but it's a near-miss Ponder on a stick, and it invites as much Slow Play as Recruiter) and they end up restricted or banned in a ton of formats, because they just break things. They can't not break things. Having access to the top 3 cards of your library is a big deal, it just is. It's a hard effect to 'fix' without rendering it unplayable, but the alternative is that it ends up fucking everywhere.
While I don't think Goblin Recruiter is broken right here and now, I think that its existence would actively preclude any decent Goblins from seeing the light of Legacy, because it would always be there, ready to turn the deck into a self-actualizing monster. I don't think future-proofing is always a good argument for keeping something banned -- again, I would looooooooove to play fucking Goblins + Recruiter, I rather love Gobbos -- but I can see why they'd keep it off the table, in this instance. It's one of a few cards in the game that almost unconditionally lets you stack your deck.
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