[Article] - A case for unbanning Goblin Recruiter.

[Stevestamopz]

A agree that Goblin Recruiter could be unbanned, but we will have to wait for a prisoner exchange for it to happen.

Time is not an issue. I know this because Food Chain Goblins was a real deck in ancient T1 format. I recall losing to the deck many times with my Oath deck, but I don't recall any issues with time.
Also, the original WotC banning announcement from old extended, and follow up article makes no mention of time or "logistic" issues. The card was/is banned for power reasons, plain and simple.

I actually quoted and sourced the original b/r updates which say this. At this stage, I just have to assume no one has actually read the article because all I'm getting is the same tired and useless rhetoric back from people who just read the headline and kneejerked.

Lemnear, go be rude somewhere else.

[TsumiBand]

I actually quoted and sourced the original b/r updates which say this. At this stage, I just have to assume no one has actually read the article because all I'm getting is the same tired and useless rhetoric back from people who just read the headline and kneejerked.

TIL if you read the article and disagree anyway, you didn't read the article

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

Whether there are playable dwarves or not is irrelevant according to your arguments.

This is silly. The playability of all Goblins is absolutely part of the conversation. We don't have conversations about Zombie decks or Kavu decks just because Grave Defiler or Kavu Howler are cards, because the rest of the cards in those decks would be Tier 7 jank. I'm not even talking about time constraints here, for the record - I don't find that argument compelling, unless your opponent has never played the deck and cannot make a Goblin stack in a reasonable amount of time. The Goblin tribe has a lot of synergy even for overcosted weenies, which is why this is even a conversation in the first place, right?

[Jack Miton]

God, this is so insanely dumb. If they wanted to have the "stack 5 goblins" legal, the "easiest solution" is fucking PRINT such card and earn money from it. Its like saying "they should unban Yawgmorhs Will and errata it to instants & sorceries only" instead of printing PIF.

yes, because that is something that is likely to happen in today's card design world.

[Sidneyious]

TIL if you read the article and disagree anyway, you didn't read the article







This is silly. The playability of all Goblins is absolutely part of the conversation. We don't have conversations about Zombie decks or Kavu decks just because Grave Defiler or Kavu Howler are cards, because the rest of the cards in those decks would be Tier 7 jank. I'm not even talking about time constraints here, for the record - I don't find that argument compelling, unless your opponent has never played the deck and cannot make a Goblin stack in a reasonable amount of time. The Goblin tribe has a lot of synergy even for overcosted weenies, which is why this is even a conversation in the first place, right?

I read the article, I saw a half decent attempt to say it was a good idea then a salty argument about people masturbating and using words that are not words.

[Final Fortune]

I agree it's a better idea to unban aggro card advanage engines than ban Sensei's Dining Top at this point, Goblin Recruiter, Skullclamp and Survival of the Fittest I think would be net contributers to the format as there are a number of banned cards that aren't good enough for Vintage on the list but aren't clearly bad for Legacy; aggro-combo is just such a cool archetype over Eldrazi to let loose.

[Gheizen64]

I agree it's a better idea to unban aggro card advanage engines than ban Sensei's Dining Top at this point, Goblin Recruiter, Skullclamp and Survival of the Fittest I think would be net contributers to the format as there are a number of banned cards that aren't good enough for Vintage on the list but aren't clearly bad for Legacy; aggro-combo is just such a cool archetype over Eldrazi to let loose.

Skullclamp is probably way too good, just an hint, since i haven't tried a list with it honestly, but it looks busted in elves (think of it as a permanent glimpse). It's much less low-investment compared to something like Survival too (which is so incredibly worse nowadays than it was years ago due to how the format has changed and how the combo work).

I'd like to see some lists with clamp though, even if they probably are too good. Nothing like Channel which make for an hilarious but stupidly broken Lich's Mirror deck.

EDIT: forgot about pyromancer/mentor, yeah Skullclamp is probably way too good

[Stevestamopz]

Skullclamp and Mentor/Pyromancer? No thanks.

The blue decks don't need any more help, they already have Brainstorm. Survival and Recruiter are so much worse than you would imagine. I've been fortunate enough to play Survival and Recruiter at my normal weekly legacy events (+1 for friendly legacy communities) and they were both very subpar. Survival does have a higher ceiling than Recruiter but they both have incredibly low floors. "T2 survival? Oh cool, you're dead," happened a lot.

[Crimhead]

I've always been undecided about Recruiter - I've never really invested the time to understand how it might play out and hence I reserved judgement. I'm now under the belief that Recruiter deserves to come off. Basically, I'm successfully convinced that no Recruiter deck would be more powerful (or time consuming) than some of the decks we already have. recruiter Gobos would not be in danger of overrunning our meta! And nobody seems to be presenting an argument to the contrary.


It's also a unique deck with synergistic cards and a play-style dissimilar to the bulk of the format; so it would help make Legacy more diverse. Being a less costly deck that will help sustain the format is just gravy.

I say “update” because we are as likely to get a change to the list as I am to grow an extra three inches onto my penis overnight.

For the most part your article was on point and your arguments were supported. I could have done without the phallic humour, bus it's easy enough to ignore. I only mention it because the quoted passage sounds like a cry for help. Just FYI, the General section over at salvations periodically gets spam posts trying to sell questionable goods or services. Best of luck!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/m.../magic-general

There are two categories that in my opinion must be met for a card to be worthy of being unbanned.

- It must not be more broken than anything already is (Show and Tell, I am looking square at you, you miserable fucking shit stain on this beautiful format).
- It must actually contribute to the meta in a positive way and contribute more interaction to a format that is already full of “derp I win” decks (still looking at you Show and Tell).

I do have to disagree with this. In fact, the philosophy behind the two points seem at odds with each other - I could argue that it isn't fair to keep a "non-interactive" card banned if there are other, less interactive cards allowed to run free.

Point two is also a bit subjective. Is CotV an uninteractive card? As Lands player, it allows me to to interact in games that would have otherwise blown me out.

"Non-interactive" decks usually require a different approach when we are against them. Sometimes a deck in a meta can reduce the average amount of interaction per game, but actually increase the range of ways in which different decks interact. Does such a deck contribute to the meta in a positive way? Let's leave these subjective ideas out of the discussion! (For the record, I want to see Twist unbanned too).

[Stevestamopz]

Thanks Crimhead.

With regards to my two-tier system for unbanning a card, let me explain further. Nothing on the banned list that I was referring to promotes interaction: eg Tinker, Oath, Hermit Druid. Mind Twist is on the same level as Black Vise (lol remember when people said unbanning that would be dangerous?) and can easily be unbanned. Does it make games more interesting? I don't know, and I assume I will never find out because the card is basically unplayable. Games where you get Hymned two or three times in consecutive turns are already miserable but Mind Twist will be doing a bad impression of that almost guaranteed, so we meet the 2 tier system: not more broken, doesn't reduce games to "lol t1 you lose". You are probably not winning if you get twisted for 7 on turn 1 but your opponent will surely be as empty handed as you also are. Not a particularly compelling game but imagine the stories that people would have after they came back from that and won!

I can see how people could argue that Chalice forces you to interact and therefore so does Show and Tell but Chalice is leagues apart from the power level of Show and Tell. "Interact with my indestructible annihilator 6 15/15 that flies!" basically reads play Death and Taxes. Interact with my Chalice = play Abrupt Decay or Ancient Grudge or Shatter or Shattering Pulse or Spell Snare or Daze or Spell Pierce or *insert a million other things that interact that can be found in every fucking colour*. In a format with Jitte and Counterbalance if you can't beat Chalice you're just not trying very hard to win.

I could have done without the phallic humour, bus it's easy enough to ignore. I only mention it because the quoted passage sounds like a cry for help. Just FYI, the General section over at salvations periodically gets spam posts trying to sell questionable goods or services. Best of luck!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/m.../magic-general

That part I can't help you with I'm afraid. I wanted my article to be interesting to read and I want to make people laugh. Even if the reader disagrees with me, I hope that they can at least appreciate the article as opposed to all the articles written by the SCG grinders which have about as much soul as Justin Bieber's asscheek. Also mocking Show and Tell players will never get old.

[thefringthing]

"Interact with my indestructible annihilator 6 15/15 that flies!"

Emrakul isn't indestructible. I've seen one die in combat to triple Tombstalker block. The blocking player pulled out a win from zero permanents.

[Stevestamopz]

Emrakul isn't indestructible. I've seen one die in combat to triple Tombstalker block. The blocking player pulled out a win from zero permanents.

If there was ever a case of good vs bad, that example ^ is it haha.

I have sadly never had 15 power of flyers + 6 other permanents to have found this out but you are correct.

[CptHaddock]

If there was ever a case of good vs bad, that example ^ is it haha.

I have sadly never had 15 power of flyers + 6 other permanents to have found this out but you are correct.

Don't need 15 power of flyers, just the 6 other permanents. I couldn't find better coverage of this but Thomas Enevoldsen survived 2 Emrakul hits in the GP he later on went and won.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-Twz77o0p8

[Final Fortune]

Skullclamp is probably way too good, just an hint, since i haven't tried a list with it honestly, but it looks busted in elves (think of it as a permanent glimpse). It's much less low-investment compared to something like Survival too (which is so incredibly worse nowadays than it was years ago due to how the format has changed and how the combo work).

I'd like to see some lists with clamp though, even if they probably are too good. Nothing like Channel which make for an hilarious but stupidly broken Lich's Mirror deck.

EDIT: forgot about pyromancer/mentor, yeah Skullclamp is probably way too good

I'm sure it would be amazing in Elves, Goblins and Affinity and that's my point, Goblin Recruiter only benefits Goblins where Skull Clamp would support aggro-combo as an archetype across the board. A format that has to consider SBing Engineered Plague would be wonderful compared to building every deck around Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

I kind of doubt Skull Clamp would be serious in a Pyromancer/Mentor deck, how do you play it any significant numbers barring Trinket Mage and isn't it just win more? Honestly I just don't really see cards like Skull Clamp and Survival of the Fittest being THAT overpowered in an era of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, it'd just give Miracles a well deserved thrashing.

[Stevestamopz]

I'm sure it would be amazing in Elves, Goblins and Affinity and that's my point, Goblin Recruiter only benefits Goblins where Skull Clamp would support aggro-combo as an archetype across the board. A format that has to consider SBing Engineered Plague would be wonderful compared to building every deck around Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

I kind of doubt Skull Clamp would be serious in a Pyromancer/Mentor deck, how do you play it any significant numbers barring Trinket Mage and isn't it just win more? Honestly I just don't really see cards like Skull Clamp and Survival of the Fittest being THAT overpowered in an era of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, it'd just give Miracles a well deserved thrashing.

We have this eternal format in Australia called 7 Point Highlander. It's like Canadian Highlander I guess except it's 60 cards and there's a points system and you can only have a total of 7 points in your 60. You can find more about it here: http://www.auseternal.com/7-point-highlander/

I bring this up because Clamp is one of the defining archetypes of that format. So much so that they've even pointed Steelshaper's Gift.

Now, as for Skullclamp, you are forgetting that you can Stoneforge for it as well. Some UW/X Stoneblade deck would absolutely abuse Skullclamp. Don't need to draw cards? Just get Batterskull instead. Combined with Pyro/Mentor, it would be format warping.

I agree Survival wouldn't be busted and is nowhere near it (I have also tested this card) but Skullclamp is just barking up the wrong tree IMO.

[(nameless one)]

Both Survival and Recruiter isn't busted in today's standard. I feel like with the new B/R announcement times, they should give it a try

[Gheizen64]

I'm sure it would be amazing in Elves, Goblins and Affinity and that's my point, Goblin Recruiter only benefits Goblins where Skull Clamp would support aggro-combo as an archetype across the board. A format that has to consider SBing Engineered Plague would be wonderful compared to building every deck around Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

I kind of doubt Skull Clamp would be serious in a Pyromancer/Mentor deck, how do you play it any significant numbers barring Trinket Mage and isn't it just win more? Honestly I just don't really see cards like Skull Clamp and Survival of the Fittest being THAT overpowered in an era of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, it'd just give Miracles a well deserved thrashing.

Survival isn't on the same plane as skullclamp, sorry but no. I'm not sure Survival would even be good nowadays, lots of hints pointing to no. T3 Triple vengevines strats or Iona with 0 backup aren't strategies that do anything in today's legacy.

[Stevestamopz]

Both Survival and Recruiter isn't busted in today's standard. I feel like with the new B/R announcement times, they should give it a try

I hope they will, but know that they won't. They didnt even acknowledge us as a format in the latest update lmao.

[Julian23]

To be fair, this isn't the first time they have not mentioned the formats where there were "no changes".