That's one of the issues though, you rarely want to pop a Vet against Elves.Originally Posted by tescrin
He lives!
As for 1/2 mana maindeckable answers vs. Elves - if that was a thing, Elves! wouldn't be a deck. You could try running more discard, but that's about it.
What Echelon says. Discard to prevent a quick win, Deluge for quick sweeping and then one of the Lilianas to keep pressure on them, preventing the comeback. If you are willing to splash then Gaddock stops Natural Order and Leovold stops Glimpse of Nature and Visionary+Symbiote, both GSZ-able. Engineered Plague helps too in the sideboard, so does Lost Legacy. ZP and Golgari Charm are of course relevant and good but imo not really strong. They are not answering Natural Order and can only hope to disrupt the opponent from Glimpsing off. Hmm this question comes up once a month it seems, maybe we should sum it up and make sure it's in the primer. Unless it already is. I'm going to assume one of the previous posters checked it. ;)
I'm looking for cards I can MB and have in G1, postboard I have a lot of cards. I'm thinking discard might be the way to go here. I'm strongly considering a Collective Brutality.
This is the reason I'm going to reanimator fit. Rest in Peace is so good against us, it might as well be very good and try to fight through it. Meanwhile Crrrush evrrrything else! (deathrite does get better against us though)
About elves generally- I also play elves and let me echo that early spot removal, followed by a sweeper is good against elves. I only play 11 lands in my elves deck and removal on my first llanowar/deathrite/whatever can be very good- often at least a Time Walk. Pyroclasm (and therefore deluge to a less degree) is unbeatable by elves as far as I know. After that try to win, perhaps via Overwhelming Splendor. If your version of NicFit lacks a "win now" button, you probably need to keep some pressure on- liliana, or even Deed or whatever. At this point card advantage becomes important. Elves is both fast and resilient, but vulnerable to creature hate.
In regard to your list Brael vs Elves I agree that golgari charm is ok but not great. Probably not good enough unless you have other sweepers too. And as far as discard goes, I guess you might hit a Natural Order, but that is a card I'd rather topdeck (as Elves) and generally I don't think discard is very good vs elves. Certainly not as good as cheap removal. Collective brutality is probably fine, with the removal side better than the discard side.
Yes, my comments actually were for the main [deck] (may have seemed odd) until the comment about Plague. Collective Brutality seems nice, with the discard-removal option it's relevant in most matchups and can turn otherwise dead cards into relevant effects. Strict discard is obviously very bad in the lategame that we strive for and CB gets around that. The price for standard staples is so disencouraging though...
Last edited by pettdan; 07-03-2017 at 10:21 AM.
Price isn't a factor, I already own a playset because I play them a bunch in Modern.
Brutality is great. I ran 3 today and they were good in basically every matchup.
Went 3-3 overall by the way. Deck felt solid though. Thinking of adding a Scryb Ranger as a 63rd card, otherwise imo I'd keep the deck exactly as it was.
Me and Navsi made an IRL Nic Fit connection today, which was great. I ended up winning it btw, I was on dead guy though, so not relevant to you guys. Though I can also attest to how good collective is, it really smooths your maindeck draws against different matchups.
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
big adjustments to the original design. No one had Legacy on them at the LGS (so we jammed Vintage) but I caight some more wisdom on my design. I cut most of the cute stuff, added some more disruption and removal.
Land (23)
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (2)
2x Pernicious Deed
Creature (19)
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Primeval Titan
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
4x Veteran Explorer
Sorcery (8)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
Instant (7)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Crop Rotation
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalker (1)
1x Nissa, Vital Force
Sideboard (15)
1x Choke
2x Duress
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Glissa, the Traitor
1x Golgari Charm
2x Lost Legacy
2x Slaughter Games
3x Surgical Extraction
looking at maybe adding Scullers and a KotR. How does Collective Brutality do in the JUNK lists?
@studderingdave: Still missing some CA/library manipulation tools. It'll cost you games to variance, without fail. And it's still rather top-heavy. On a side note - switching from Slaughtergames to Lost Legacy would allow you to ditch the Taiga. More often than not it'll be the worlds' worst Forest.
On yesterday's outing - went 2-2, drop. Had a good time but 3-2 wasn't good enough for top 8 so decided to go home early and get some much needed groceries. I'll post a report tomorrow.
Check the two comments above yours. Both playing junk of some variety.
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
Top 8'd a local 24 man event yesterday losing in the quarters due to my deck not functioning 2 games in a row.
List
Instant: 8
4 Brainstorm
2 Force of will
2 Abrupt decay
Sorcery 16
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent blood
2 Green sun's Zenith
Enchantments: 2
2 Pernicious deed
Creatures: 12
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal Witness(Should just be the second leovold going forward)
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thragtusk
Walkers: 3
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Lands:
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
Side:
1 Nissas, Vital Force
1 Tireless tracker
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Malestrom Pulse
1 Fatal Push
2 Force of will
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truths
1 Golgari Charm
2 Invasive Surgery
Deck felt insane almost all day. The cantrips were excellent every time I drew them and gitaxian probe was amazing in every matchup were therapy was good. In the same vein was probe thoughtseize was great for setting up therapy as well. The removal distribution felt good even if sometimes innocent blood was awkward and I missed push. Scavenging ooze also beat a couple of opponents to death
Cards that underperformed:
Nissa, Vital force: She was hard to cast and felt a lot worse in multiples compared to other builds I have played. Considering dropping the main deck copy.
Eternal Witness: Every time she was a more expensive leovold as the only thing I ever wanted her to get was leovold, especially when green sunning.
Tireless tracker: It was just way harder to have lands to make her good when I had already shuffled the all away or just didnt have many left in the deck.
I really want to put a meren in somewhere and I think it will be over the MD Nissa for now and that really the only change(other than e-wit but that was mostly cause I only own 1 leovold atm).
Matchup were
Unexpected Miracles 1-1
Czech Pile 2-1(Super fun games)
BUG 3 drops 2-0
Grixis Control(no deathrites) 1-2
Infect 2-1
Made top 8 with a 3-1-1 record and then lost the the czech pile player from round 2 when my deck failed to draw reasonably.
Report time! As I said, I went 2-2-drop. Ran the following 75:
Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
Round 1, vs. Colourless Staxx (2-0).
Game 1: I mulligan to 6, keep a hand w/ 4 lands, an Eternal Witness and a Cabal Therapy. Scry a Rhino to the bottom. Opponent's on the play, starts with a Mutavault. I have no idea what I'm facing so I just fetch my first basic. His T2, he drops a Sphere of Resistance. I just drop a land and say go. T3, he drops another Sphere. T4 I PtE his Mutavault. On my T5 I drop a Witness to return a land. Opponent then drops a Mishra's Factory. T6, I attack into the Factory. He tries to pump it, I remind him it has summoning sickness and my opponent is stuck on 2 land. I on the other hand have reached 6 and drop Siege Rhino, followed up by Sigarda.
Sideboarding: None.
Game 2: I believe this game my opponent mulliganed to 6. I quickly establish a board position until he starts nuking the board with a Smokestack w/ 2 counters. He ends up killing his entire board, leaving me with a Plains. He bricks while I draw 3/4 lands in a row and go to town on him with a Siege Rhino.
Round 2, vs. Sneak & Show (1-2)
Game 1: He drops Griselbrand T2 and I'm unable to overcome it.
Sideboarding: +3 Lost Legacy, +3 Duress, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Golgari Charm, + 2 Pithing Needle. -2 Pernicious Deed, -1 Toxic Deluge, -3 Veteran Explorer, -1 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Vizier of the Menagerie, -1 Sigarda, Host of Herons, -1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Game 2: I start on Duress, taking away Impulse since that was the most powerful cantrip in his hand. T2, I Cabal Therapy him. In respons he Brainstorms. I pick the Ponder of which I'm sure he kept it and hit. I see a Griselbrand and an Emrakul. Cabal Therapy 2 takes Griselbrand. T3, I topdeck another Therapy and take away Emrakul. All my opponent has now is a hand with a bunch of land (and he was salty as fuck). I also drop Qasali Pridemage. At some point he's joined by a Siege Rhino. On my opponent's last turn, he tries to get tricksy by dropping a Sneak Attack. On his end step, I blow it up with Pridemage and fetch for Dryad Arbor. On my turn, I swing for exactsies (thank you, Arbor).
Game 3: My T1 and T2 are basically the same, but then I brick. My opponent gets Griselbrand out and follows it up w/ Sneak Attack into Emrakul for 22 damage.
Round 3, vs. Grixis Delver (1-2)
Game 1: He gets me the turn before I can stabilize. Funny thing is, he did block a Veteran Explorer when it came swinging.
Sideboarding: +3 Duress, +2 Lost Legacy. -1 Pernicious Deed, -2 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Tireless Tracker, -1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Game 2: Weirdest game ever. I PtE an early DRS and start hammering my opponent with 2 Veteran Explorer. He blind Therapies me, hitting 2 Rhinos (dammit, lol). He fails to find a creature for a million turns (even though he had 4 Brainstorm and multiple Ponders) and I make that even worse by Lost Legacy'ing his sure 4-off - Delver of Secrets. I drop some creatures, he kills them. He drops an Angler, I PtE it. He at some points has to Bolt an Explorer (yup), goes to 3, I topdeck Rhino and the trigger takes the game.
Game 3: Fun game. Lot of back and forthing, fighting for control. Just before we go to turns I resolve a Rhino to race his DRS and things are looking pretty good. On the 3rd extra turn, facing lethal from my next swing, he activates his DRS a final time and Bolts me in the face.
Round 4, vs. 4C Blade/SFM deck (2-0)
I don't think this guy was very familiar w/ Nic Fit.
Game 1: My opponent starts on a T1 Hierarch. I fear Infect and drop an Explorer. His T2, he drops DRS and I think he's on some weird BUG list. I drop Pridemage and send Explorer into the red zone. Before we go to combat, he Decays (I believe) my Pridemage. I keep my Explorer tapped, and ask him whether or not he wants to block it. He looks at me surprised and says "Yes, but your Pridemage is dead". I reply "So?". Still baffled, he decides to block it w/ his DRS. I say "Thank you", get my land and PtE his DRS. He drops a TNN, I drop a Rhino. On his turn he plays a SFM and gets Batterskull. I Therapy away his Batterskull and send Rhino into the red zone. He blocks it w/ TNN and SFM, killing my Rhino and his SFM. On his turn, he swings in for 4 w/ his TNN. I drop another Rhino and third one after that.
Sideboarding: +3 Lost Legacy, -1 Tireless Tracker, -2 Deathrite Shaman
Game 2: I have the stone cold nuts. I start off w/ Veteran Explorer into Phyrexian Tower, drop Courser of Kruphix. His T2 he drops SFM getting Jitte and on his T3 drops Leovold. I go Veteran Explorer -> Cabal Therapy, take his Jitte and spy Batterskull. Flashback Therapy, take that too. Proceed to drop Siege Rhino. After that I also drop Mirri's Guile and Vizier of the Menagerie. Sounds good, right? Well, on the next upkeep I got jack shit. On top were just a bunch of spells and no shuffle effects. Oh well, lol. I believe that somewhere my opponent also Forced a PtE on something. On my final swing (my board was now Courser, Siege Rhino, Vizier and some other stuff) he AD's Courser but, despite blocking something, still takes 8 for exactsies.
Seeing as 3-2 wouldn't be good enough to make T8, I dropped. Had I stayed, my round 5 opponent would have been another Staxx deck.
Thoughts:
The list felt good. Still not sold on Vizier, but I still don't want to cut it either. Saw Guile only once or twice the entire day, which was unfortunate. The fact that I still didn't really fall to variance was quite pleasing. I also managed to power through multiple games without any Veteran Explorer triggers, which was pretty damn awesome. Moving forward, Vizier might turn into Crocodile of the Crossing or Courser/Tracker/Witness #2 or even Guile #4. Funny, since it used to be the 6-drop slot.
Edit: @Navsi/mstephenson: Reports people, reports dammit!
Last edited by Echelon; 07-03-2017 at 05:20 AM.
Sure, but it's not particularly interesting.Edit: @Navsi/mstephenson: Reports people, reports dammit!
Round 1 vs BUG delver
Game 1: Swords, Deed, Decay into a Rhino and a Tracker.
Game 2: Pretty much the same again, but this time it's a Stoneforge with a SoFaF killing him.
Sideboard: +2 Toxic Deluge, +2 To The Slaughter // -4 Cabal Therapy
1-0
Round 2 vs. Monored Sneak/Breach/Moon
Game 1: I open with Forest - Zenith - Arbor. He makes a turn-1 Magus of the Moon. I Zenith up a Deathrite, kill his Magus with a Brutality and take his Through the Breach, seeing Emrakul + Griselbrand in hand. Two turns later he finds an extra mana source, Sneaks in Grisel, and his draw-7 finds him two Petals to drop Emrakul and Worldspine too.
Game 2: I Thoughtseize him turn two (after he makes Sandstone Needle + Petal) and see Moon, TTB, City of Traitors, Griselbrand, and something else. I take Moon, since I'm on Bayou + Arbor for mana right now and can't expect to get out from under it, and hope he bricks on killing me. He draws a Worldspine and puts it in, killing me with the tokens next turn.
Sideboard: +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Lost Legacy, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 To The Slaughter, +1 Gaddock Teeg // -1 Sigarda, -1 Rhino, -1 Gideon, -1 Meren, -1 Jitte, -1 Nissa, -3 Brutality (not enough targets), -1 Scooze
1-1
Round 3 vs. Storm
Game 1: I therapy LED turn one, then zenith up an Deathrite rather than an Explorer since if I flashback and miss (he has a brainstorm) then I give him two lands and probably lose the game. Instead I cast a Brutality, flashback Therapy with Arbor, and make a SFM with a SoFaF. He doesn't manage to go off through discard every turn + active deathrite and dies.
Game 2: He passes and Brainstorms in response to my Thoughtseize, but can't hide enough goodstuff and I snag an Infernal Tutor. Neither of us does much on turn two, and then on 3 he goes for it with Ad Nauseam. He goes to 3 before stopping (he knows I have a Brutality in hand from a Probe, so can't really keep going) but he has no mana in pool and only a single petal as a mana source, so I surgical his Dark Rituals (which I just saw him draw two of off AdN) in response to his Petal, leaving him with no castable mana, so he cantrips and passes. I Zenith a Teeg. He goes to 1, cantrips a bit, and Chain of Vapors Teeg on my next turn, but can't do more than make six goblins with an Empty and dies to a topdecked Brutality.
Sideboard: +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Lost Legacy, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Gaddock Teeg // -1 Sigarda, -1 Rhino, -1 Gideon, -1 Meren, -1 Jitte, -1 Stoneforge, -2 Swords, -2 Decay (keeping Deed/Deluge in cast of Empty the Warrens).
2-1
Round 4 vs. Elves
Game 1: I Swords his Nettle Sentinel and Therapy away a Zenith. He makes a Quirion, Deathrite, Elvish Mystic and taps most of them + Cradle to hardcast a Craterhoof, putting me to 5 or so. We grind for a bit (I make an 8/8 Scavenging Ooze), I get back up to 10 life or so and find a Deed, but he manages to Zenith for a second Hoof and kill me the turn before I Deed his board away.
Game 2: He Thoughtseizes me, I make a Canonist. We durdle for a few turns and he topdecks Natural Order and makes Progenitus. I don't find Deluge and die.
Sideboard: +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Lost Legacy, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Toxic Deluge // -1 Sigarda, -1 Rhino, -1 Gideon, -1 Meren, -1 QPM, -1 Nissa, -1 SoFaF, -2 Stoneforge
2-2
Round 5 vs. Stasis (!)
Game 1: He makes a Fevered Visions. I therapy away some countermagic, make and Explorer, take his Stasis and proceed to slam haymakers repeatedly. I have QPM (+ Meren) to kill his Energy Field and put him to 5 with a Tracker before finishing him off with Brutality + Rhino trigger.
Game 2: Basically more of the same - I finish the game with 9 Soldier tokens, and Elspeth Sun's Champion and Nissa ready to ult, Sigarda, Tracker, and a QPM. He taps all creatures down and makes Stasis, but I can kill it with QPM and swing for (very) lethal.
Turns out Nic Fit is not a deck you want to be playing Howling Mine against.
Sideboard: +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion, -2 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Toxic Deluge (didn't see any planeswalkers, To The Slaughter would probably replace Ooze/DRS if I did).
3-2
Round 6 vs. Czech Pile
Game 1: We open with a Strix vs. Explorer beatdown battle. Eventually we both slam some threats (me a Tracker iirc, him a TNN) and end low on cards on both sides when I crack a Deed. I know he has manaleak + fatal push in hand, end up therapying his mana leak and Zenithing Sigarda, which he can't answer and dies to.
Game 2: He makes a Deathrite and Cliques my Deluge away - my Deed gets forced. I am able to get a Stoneforge with a SoFaF but he has the Kolaghan's Command to blow me out and I lose in short order.
Game 3: We trade for a while - explorer/strix beats put us each to ~12 eventually, him holding up countermagic and me not wanting to throw a deed/deluge into it without ability to pay for leak/pierce. Eventually he manages to get rid of them both and resolve a Clique, which I kill with a Brutality. My last card in hand is Jitte for my explorer to stabilize, but his is Kolaghan's Command again (destroy Jitte, return Clique) and I draw three lands afterwards and die to Clique beatdown.
Sideboard: +2 Toxic Deluge, +2 To The Slaughter, +1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion, -4 Cabal Therapy, -1 Swords to Plowshares
3-3
Overall pretty happy with the deck. Results:
- Still beats Delver just fine.
- Moon is easier to deal with than it was in 4c Atraxa, but still not positive. I think the Big Red matchups depend heavily on the opponent's draws, though the discard spells really help. This is one of the awkward matchups where Brutality isn't quite good enough, which sucks, but it's great everywhere else so oh well.
- Seven discard spells maindeck makes Storm way better, and the sideboard helps a lot too. I feel pretty happy with that matchup in this build. Stoneforge / SoFaF helps a lot because it gives us recurring discard, allowing us to lock them lategame rather than discard their stuff and then hope they don't topdeck into a combo over the four turns it takes us to actually kill them.
- Elves isn't great, but then I never saw a Deluge in either game. I think with six sweepers post-side the matchup is manageable, and we also have a lot of discard and spot removal for them. Dealing with Progenitus is difficult, especially in a deck with dorks preventing TTS. I guess I do have four outs post-side (Elspeth and Deluge) and can name Natural Order on my Lost Legaies. I don't think there's much we can do to improve this matchup any further either.
- Blue midrange decks are still good. The games were reasonably close - one of the problems of the Stoneforge builds is that Kolaghan's Command is absolutely backbreaking for us. I could have kept in Therapy to clear the way (but czech pile isn't exactly easy to hit therapy against, and I dunno if it's worth the slots). Collective Brutality helps, once again, here.
The only change I would be making to the list going forward is adding a Scryb Ranger to the maindeck as a 63rd card. If I do, I might also add a Pride Sovereign in place of the second Tireless Tracker, just to test how good the cats turn out to be. Might just stay as Tracker though - it's got a much worse worst-case scenario, since if it dies to a removal spell before I untap with it it didn't do anything. Might be worth testing though - especially with Scryb Ranger. Ranger might be worth it on its own right now though, lots of blue x/1 creatures going around, and it holds equipment very well.
Ugh effort, Ill get around to it today.Edit: @Navsi/mstephenson: Reports people, reports dammit!
Throwing away my lifepad because it was full is making this a little bit harder now lol.
Alright so round 1 against miracles
Game 1:
The game was going fine I was doing the usual thing of out grinding my opponent was up four cards to 1. Turns out the last card he topdecked was JTMS and he then brainstormed and passed. I had cards that didnt do anything to JTMS or pressure. The next turn he drew and brainstormed again and then passed. I drew a probe and probed him and saw counter spell snap and swords. Game was super over.
-2 Veteran -2 Innocent blood.
+1 Nissa, VF +1 Painful Truths +1 Tireless tracker +1 Maelstrom pulse
Game 2:
He kept a medium seven and I probe cabal'd him turn 1 taking his brainstorm with strix flashback turn 2 and then eventually beat him to death with value creatures in turns.
0-0-1
Round 2:
Turns it I actually played BUG 3 drops round 2 not czech, what was round 3
I don't really remember much of what happened other than he played a bunch of spells that didnt matter like mana dorks and TNN and he never found a JTMS so the games weren't partially close.
-1 Scooze, -2 Force of Will, -2 Thoughtseize
+1 Nissa, VF +1 Painful Truths +1 Tireless tracker +1 Fatal Push +1 Dismemeber
1-0-1
So 2 of my friends got paired round 2 and decided they wanted to play against miracles so the ID round 2 and I got to play 1 laaaaaaame.
Round 3: Czech pile
Game 1:
There were a lot of cabal therapies cast. And the game revolved around therapying his cards that matter(Counterspells bolts(to protect my JTMS), K commands, ect) and then stuck a jace and ran away with the game.
-2 Innocent Blood, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 Force of will
+1 Nissa, VF +1 Tireless Tracker +1 Painful Truths +1 Maelstorm pulse, +1 Fatal Push,
Game 2:
We both traded a lot of resources in the first 2 turns and then I saw his hand one turn and was in the clear for ptruths next turn, except his draw step was counterspell. Never recovered.
Game 3:
Basically game one again except jace is a lot harder to run away with because of blasts actually being able to interact. There was even point were I immediately sacced a deathrite shaman to cabal therapy because I didn't want to give him a target for Kommand At the end of the game my lifepad was well over half cards I had written down from discard spells.
2-0-1
Now I get to play the other friend the ID'd
Round 4: Grixis control
From what I can tell this matchup is a hell of a lot harder cause discard isnt great against him.
Games
These games kinda blurred together but basically the ones I lost were to an untimely jace or pyromancer plus therapies
-2 vet, -2 Decay, -2 force, -2 thoughtseize
+1 Nissa, VF +1 Deluge, +1 Dismember, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Maelstrom pulse, +1 Tireless tracker, +1 Painful truths,
2-1-1
Round 5: Infect
Game 1:
Killed everything but had a slow clock and drew a couple of lands and he built up a lot of pump and killed me with the inkmoth.
-1 Thragtusk -1 Nissa, VF, -2 JTMS, -1 eterman witness, -1 GSZ
+1 Golgari charm, +2 Force of Will, +1 Fatal Push, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Dismember
Game 2:
Killed everything discarded everything and beat him to death with a very large scooze he had to start chump blocking.
Game 3:
Murdered everything and stuck a deed that was very good at stomping him from playing elfs and heirachs. He eventually died to strix beats.
Also got to echoing truth a sylvan library one game and then therapy it.
Made top 8 at 5th and played against czech pile friend and in game 1 I drew 3 therapies 2 thoughtseizes 2 veterans and 2 forces as almost all of my action spells. Yeah I died to a pile of cards.
Game 2 I miseed my 3rd land drop 2 turns in a row and really fucked me as I was never able to catch up as I died with 2 nissa's VF in hand. Uugh.
Very rough report if you can have any specifics I can probably answer those better.
Haven't had the time to play in any legacy tournaments at the shop lately so I've been relegated to kitchen table for the time being. With that in mind, I've been brewing jank for the last while. Specifically, different flavors of Nic Fit because if I'm not sacrificing Veteran Explorers to Cabal Therapy what am I really doing with my life? Here's a Jund build I was working on. Hoping to get some feedback. I guess you can call it Dragonmaster Fit?
4 Veteran Explorer
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Primal Growth
4 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Scute Mob
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Fatal Push
3 Painful Truths
2 Sandwurm Convergence
2 Inferno Titan
1 Primeval Titan
20 Lands
I have full set of deeds because the people I'm playing with tend to run a lot of creature strategies so board wipes are a must. My basic strategy is to get to 6 lands (primal growth saccing veteran explorer is pretty funny for this) as soon as possible and turn on Scute Mobs and Dragonmasters within the first few turns. That is followed up by going over the top of most things with Sandwurm Convergence and Titans. Painful Truths and Tracker refills your hand.
Can you guys think of any card I'm missing that would further the playstyle?
I love reading about Junk Nic Fit. After testing I have decided to return to Death and Taxes. But I am maintaining my Nic Fit deck as well since there is very little overlap between the decks. thanks everyone for the insight.
This is an update to my unusual 12post deck, or rather a slightly different version - and since i'm including a decent NicFit-package in this version, i think this fits better in this thread than in the 12post thread. Also because the deck plays more like a NicFit decks than a typical 12post deck most of the time, that was true before i added the Explorer + Therapy package and is certainly true now.
61 Cards Maindeck:
Lands (27):
4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures (15):
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (19):
3 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard (15):
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Lingering Souls
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Collective Brutality
I could go over how i got to this list from my different lists without the NicFit package, but i'd rather explain this starting from the NicFit-8post deck some people tried to build a little more than a year ago.
I liked that idea and tried it, and experimented a little bit with it. But it had one problem i couldn't solve: There were not enough colored sources, at most maybe 10 or 11 green sources and even less black sources. The result were at least for me too many clunky draws, and there was no way to fix it - i needed all the colorless lands and i didn't want to include that many more lands either. However, the general idea to combine 12post with a more midrangy approach seemed fine. So i tried someting different with Mox Diamonds, but the NicFit-package had to go. That deck worked much better for me and i worked on it for a long time - but after the Top banning i had some problems finding a good list for the new metagame. Recently i have seen some NicFit lists with less than 4 Explorers, just 3 or even 2 in some cases. And Pernicious Deed (which is unplayable with Mox Diamond) doesn't seem that necessary either, Toxic Deluge is fine and was already in my deck. So i tried this idea again, i could make the room for 2 Explorers and 4 Therapy after cutting some stuff that wasn't essential. And 2 Explorers are probably enough for this list, i have only 5 basics anyway, so i never really want to crack more than 2 Explorers.
The results with that on xmage so far have been great, around 75% winrate (59-20 right now, and without some mistakes it could be higher) - even better than my results with my older build were at a time when Top was around and Miracles was a relevant deck. Older versions of this deck had around 65-70% winrate in the pre-ban-metagame, without NicFit-Engine but over a very large samplesize, and this version feels stronger than any other version i tried so far.
About the maindeck: After another 12post player suggested to play a 2nd Stage over the 4th Glimmerpost i'm trying that. Seems fine so far, it makes the Marit Lage plan a little more reliable and i haven't missed the 4th Glimmerpost yet. Otherwise, the only change i'm expecting in the near future is finding a slot for Ramunap Excavator (the new Crucible bear), i will at least try that out. I tested a decent number of games with all the GSZ silver bullets, don't think i would cut any of them, and i don't think i need anything else in this build (tried many different ideas in other versions). And Tracker is an important core card for the deck, i need the cardadvantage (especially to make up for the carddisadvantage with the Mox Diamonds).
Mox Diamond is very important:
1. It fixes the mana and brings me up to enough colored sources, 14 untapped green sources (and 11 black, 11 white sources). As i said, that was the main issue with other NicFit-Post decks i tried.
2. It helps to speed up the early game. That's especially important against combo decks (i think Mox Diamond is secretly the best card in the deck against combo decks), still important against aggressive decks and less important against slower more controlish deck. (I usually board out 1 Mox Diamond in slower matchups.)
3. It helps against land hate, meaning Wasteland locks and Blood Moon. Both can be problematic for 12post decks, less so with the NicFit Engine, but it still helps a lot.
About the sideboard: Some combohate is obviously necessary. Ethersworn and Surgical along with Brutality should do that in addition to the relevant maindeck cards. Most combo matchups are fine (in particular Storm and Reanimator are good matchups), among the more important combo decks only Omnisneak is very unfavorable (hard to fix that one, needs way too many sideboard or even maindeck slots to get close to 50/50, so i just don't try any more). Some removal against Delver decks is also important, Explosives and Brutality should do that (my Delver matchup is certainly worse than for some other NicFit decks, but much better than for other 12post decks, i think Grixis Delver is favorable).
Lingering Souls and Obstinate Baloth are recent additions to the sideboard: In my testgames without it, i beat pretty much every deck without Liliana, but lost almost every match against decks with Liliana. Both cards should help to solve that problem, that's the idea at least - needs more testing to know that for sure, but so far both cards seem fine and have other applications. (Baloth helps against Burn, which can be a tough matchup, and Lingering Souls give a completely unexpected angle of attack in many matchups, i don't think anybody expects that card out of my deck.)
In comparison to other 12post decks, i completely cut all copies of Krosan Grip. Those are usually there for Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void. This deck can usually beat Blood Moon, and Chalice isn't that important either (especially postboard i'm usually very low on 1-drops against Chalice decks). That has downsides against some fringe decks, but i think against Tier decks it's fine for this deck to play withou Krosan Grip (or Abrupt Decay), if i would want it Explosives can sometimes do the same job (and i still have the RecSage).
Overall the playstyle with this deck is probably closer to NicFit than to a typical 12-post deck, but the game plan changes with the matchup - sometimes (for example against Miracles) you try to play as close to a typical 12post deck as possible, sometimes you just play a fair grindy game, and sometimes this deck can look a bit like Turbo Depths. This deck kills a goldfish on average on Turn 5, with many Turn 4 kills and even some Turn 3 kills - most of the faster kills with Marit Lage, but a Turn 4 Emrakul is possible. That's slower than the average draw out of other combo decks, but can beat some of their draws even without disruption, and with some disruption is often fast enough.
Compared to other NicFit decks, i play much less removal, but the combo game plans make up for that - i tested different types of removal in different versions of this deck, but the proactive versions have always been better (in that regard, this is similar to other 12post decks).
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