Land, taps for colorless.
2, T: destroy target nonbasic land an opponent controls. Each player can get a basic and put it into play (untapped).
I mean, i kind of like this. It makes path busted and does help power our trackers. One vet trigger and then this probably runs most decks out of basics completely.
That's still not saying much. Run the opponent out of basics, and then it's on par with Wasteland except you also spend 2 mana? Doesn't seem useful.Originally Posted by removedfromgame
I didnt realise there was a cost attached
Well, technically it only costs 1 to activate as long as there's a basic to grab from your library. Having said that, maybe not at it's full potential here.
I do think that makeshift munitions gives jund builds a much needed boost. I just don't have an interest in playing Sneak fit lol. Between this with trackers and the Punishing Grove combo, I think a deck is inevitable. I also really like that Punishing Fire is a turn 2 way of dropping their DRS OR your own veteran explorer.
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I disagree, and I know we've gone back and forth on this a few times. I think there's two very strong reasons to be in GB. The first is card consistency. Adding a third color offers only marginal upgrades over two colors, at least only marginal over GB. I don't think the difference is large. But for those very slight power upgrades, you're paying a big price in mana. Two colors is much more consistent, and allows for a utility manabase that makes your openings more explosive. The white cards you add, also come at the expense of all of your card advantage. Blue is in a similar boat except Strix (when you're not pitching anything to FoW) is much worse than white removal. Adding a third color as a result involves the trade of either losing your CA for better removal or losing your board presense for weaker removal.
The other aspect I like about GB is that because you do have the card slots available, you're able to make a very explosive list. This is a deck that's all about maintaining a superior board presence. If you fall behind on the board you usually lose. Thanks to the increased mana consistency, but also the ability to run multiple towers (and the easier time of using tower mana) you can get out much quicker.
I'm not saying that GB is the best build, even though I favor it. I've been playing it for about 10 months now though, and it's easily just as competitive as any other list I've played. If you build it right, it has the proper power level, over the summer and late spring I was able to leverage GB to win an 11 and a 12 round legacy league (plus a top 4 after that). In the 12 rounder I went undefeated. GB is very viable.
What card advantage effects are you talking about that you have to cut because you're running white?
What board presence cards are you talking about that you have to cut because you're running blue?
Field of Rune is likely unplayable. If vet needs to wasteland someone its because it is a problem right now like Depths, maybe Karakas bouncing a legend heavy draw, Grove, etc.
Everything, for example Tireless Trackers are a frequent cut when you run white. Remember, adding white (or blue, or red, or whatever) isn't just adding a color. It's also removing already existing cards from the deck. Adding Path to Exile isn't just gaining removal, it's also losing whatever it was replacing.
Blue typically leads to a bad board presence because you're giving up whatever you're cutting for Baleful Strix. In almost all cases it's a switch from strong creatures, to a weak creature that still trades. The card draw is nice, but you have better options for draw in black, green, and white.
Ripjaw Raptor seems to have potential. I'm considering running one over Meren, or perhaps over my 4CC beater flex slot. 4/5 with upside is rather pushed for 4 mana.
I'm not even sure you need to run any sort of damage dealing enabler. It's hard to attack into, and hard to block as it is.
In a bit I'll post an idea I had, if it does need an enabler I like Walking Ballista... been thinking about a white build with Ranger of Eos in it again.
Edit: Something random I'm considering
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures 22
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Walking Ballista
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Ranger of Eos
1 Ripjaw Raptor
Spells 17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Crop Rotation
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Sorry, meant to reply to this earlier and I got sidetracked. I think you're a bit too light on threats, you only have 4 creatures that can reasonably close out a game, not including DRS (but in general, I assume we're going to lose the DRS war), and 1 PW. You noted yourself that the deck feels a little anemic. This is why you need a few more hard hitting cards, and why you need the CA to tie it all together.
To explain this, you need to go back to the basis of SE which is that it wanted to run enough threats, that it could keep up in cards with a control deck and match threat for answer at 1:1 trades, with the idea that it had slightly more threats than they had answers, and the leftovers would be able to win the game. Your threat count is too low to do that, furthermore you're lacking the CA to tie it all together and chain threats.
I would agree with you that you're too high on straight removal spells. I think you generally want to be in the 12-14 range. However, you still want creatures that can interact. Eternal Witness is a good one, since it's a body (and GSZ'able) and can usually rebuy removal.
This is also where a card like Master of the Wild Hunt comes into play, or alternatively Garruk Relentless. It's threats plus removal. I've found that I usually don't want Liliana of the Veil, most cards are 2 for 1's and by discarding them I downgrade them to 1 for 1s.
Carnage Tyrant seems good, but it's still 6 mana, which means 7 off a GSZ. Throw in a random Wasteland from the opponent, and you're going to need to see 8 lands to cast it. That means 6+ turns if you fired off a Vet, and more realistically 9-10 turns. It also means that in order to hit those lands, you need to be digging through 25+ cards in your deck in order to make it on curve. Which means needing a lot of CA. Then there's the issue that you're casting a 7 drop that doesn't have an immediete impact. It takes a full turn to cast, then it can't start swinging until the next turn, and once it does it's still probably going to be a 3-4 turn clock.
I'm not going to say the card is bad, but I think it's worse than Primeval Titan.
Is there a replacement for bob? He's what makes the list unattainable for me right now.
I don't know if there's a replacement, he's the only 2 drop I've found so far that gives meaningful CA aside from Stoneforge Mystic. And Stoneforge builds look a lot different.
And here I was thinking PtE was busted anyways. It's only the best spotremoval Legacy has to offer.
I've been adding more Trackers to my Junk list rather than cutting them.
As for what PtE replaces - it usually replaces Fatal Push. You're not telling me that Fatal Push > PtE.
Tracker coming out is just not going to be happening just because I'm in white, thanks very much.
Strix does not take up a 'proactive creature' slot. It's a removal / stabilization effect that trades up in cards.
Just for reference, what green/black list are you looking at cuts from here?
Hi, been lurking for some time around here and finished building/playing my first version of Rhino Fit 2 months ago so take everything here with a grain of salt.
One of my favourite cards in the deck so far has been Green Sun's Zenith, especially post-board for powerhouses like Gaddock Teeg. We've seen Arianrhod experiment with Traverse which is great but still conditional. There was also a one post discussion about Eladamri's Call but most felt it was cost prohibitive. Which finally got me wondering about Worldly Tutor it IS weaker than GSZ, but as a one or two-of I like that it brings something different; instant speed means you can play around certain things and it still allows you to hardcast uncounterable beasts. More importantly, Inlike that if it gets countered I haven't just committed 4-5+ mana. Another crazy idea was using Living Wish
So, random shower thought but I'd really like to hear some opinions on tutor alternatives not just in terms of being a toolbox but also of having the right threat at the right time.
Thanks to everyone posting here, I for one, love reading you all on the way to work!
The problem with Worldly Tutor is that it's card disadvantage - you spend a card to draw something you want a turn later (and have nothing to do in the meantime). That's just not where you want to be.
Living Wish has the same problem Eladamri's Call has - it costs 2 mana (and, depending on your build, eats up some precious SB space, but that's a different discussion).
Fair enough, but sometimes I just wish I could play 6 copies of GSZ, Cabal Therapy and Veterans (although DRS can sometimes fill that role similarly).
Thanks!
Worldly Tutor is card disadvantage which is a real issue in a grindy deck like ours. It also increases our vulnerability to Chalice and doesn't let us fetch up an answer we need this turn.
Living Wish is nice but the hit to our sideboard is an issue. Like other tutors (Traverse for example) it also can't be used to get an explorer into play on turn two which is an important function of Zenith in the deck.
Eladamri's Call is, in my opinion, the best non-Zenith option we have. It has actual upsides (instant speed) that help to mitigate the downside of not supporting early Explorers.
The three all have the same primary upside over Zenith - finding non green creatures. If you are specifically trying to build very heavily around a non green creature, then that is a reasonable reason to actually want to run one of these. However it does come with significant impacts to our early mana acceleration. The only build where I'd ever really consider running any of these would be when I'm trying to find Academy Rector. I've tried to make it work, and even when finding Rector (which is probably the most powerful thing Nic Fit can be doing when building around a non green creature as far as I can think of) I wasn't able to get a build I was happy with using Eladamri's Call.
Other options to consider would be Recruiters of either flavor. I don't think any of the options above make acceptable substituted for Zenith, though.
One other upside these cards have is that they work when you cast them for free somehow, whereas for Zenith x=0 in that scenario. I don't know if anything has been tested there but there might be some possibilities with Shardless Agent or something.
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On an unrelated note - Looking for opinions on what fat monster to play in a BUG build I am working on.
- CMC6 or so is where I am looking. I am playing Fierce Empath. Being a green creature is nice, but not necessary. If it's less than 6CMC, it has to be green.
- Stabilizing in the face of a threatening board presence would be useful.
- Providing a clock would, again, be quite handy.
- It doesn't need to be a completely unstoppable game ender. I already have Emrakul, the Promised End as a 'game over' Empath target.
- Not being completely dead vs combo would be nice, but I already have Fierce Empath -> Distended Mindbender, and Leovold, so my Zeniths are not dead in those match ups either way.
Currently looking at these options:
- Elder Deep-Fiend - stabilizes temporarily but not permanently. Castable for less than 6 is nice. Tapping lands helps against combo, and 5/6 statline blocks Anglers well. Tapping creatures down even if countered is nice.
- Grave Titan - stabilizes very well and also provides a fast clock. Hard to cast, slow, and no combo interaction however, and not Zenithable.
- Ishkanah - stabilizes well, moderate clock, but cheap. Potential risks of not having delirium. Zenithable. Leaves me with only two Empath targets which is a bit suspect.
- Hornet Queen - stabilizes very well, evasive clock. Zenithable. However, tons of mana. Stabilization is a lot less interesting if I can't reasonably cast it.
- Titania - stabilizes well, very fast clock, cheap. Doesn't like karakas or drs very much. Fast clock makes her potentially not-useless against combo. Zenithable, but only two empath targets again.
- Gurmag Angler / Tombstalker - reasonable choices, but have anti-synergy with the Emrakul lategame plan.
Spice option: Avatar of Woe. Potential to be super cheap, kills stuff, hard to block. Garbage against combo and probably also aggro though. For reference I am currently playing 18 creatures, three Brutality and one Liliana LH as far as yard filling goes. I suspect that by the time there are 10 creatures in graveyards I'll probably be looking at getting Emrakul anyway, but if the opponent is on a creature deck things suddenly get a lot more doable.
I really like Eladamri's call. On some builds (with non green creatures), it can be a good option to mix with GSZ. Also it's really strong with Faerie macabre post side.
Plus, in a meta full of tempo decks, it's better to turn around daze and spell pierce.
About wordly tutor, even if you forget a second the card disadvantage, it's not worth it in a meta blossoming in predict (EoT I play wordly tutor, opponnent"mmm.. upkeep I play predict on you, you drop your beast in grave and I draw 2, thanks" )
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