So I've got a current main board rhino list that looks like this:
3 forest
3 swamp
2 plains
2 bayou
1 scrub land
1 savannah
1 tower
1 stronghold
4 verdant
3 windswept
1 marsh flats
4 Explorer
1 tireless trAcker
1 e witness
1 rec sage
4 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 sigarda
4 therapy
4 green sun
3 top
2 path
1 Inquisition of K
3 decay
3 deed
1 truths
1 pulse
1 deluge
2 Kaya, ghost assassin
1 Nissa, VF
Board is a mess.
3 surgical
3 thoughtsieze
2 pithing needle
1 to the slaughter
1 krosan grip
1 garruk relentless
1 tsunami
2 scavenging ooze
1 ob nixilis reignited
My miracles match up is pretty good but I struggle immensely against the combo side of things. My surgicals put in a lot of work. I'm happy with two kayas so far because she almost acts as an alternative win con with rhinos. I do rely heavily on my sigarda and Nissa to close out game 1s though. Sideboard suggestions would be nice (my lgs has no copies of carpet of flowers currently). Sneak and show is a nightmare and have been considering an oblivion ring to compliment the to the slaughter. Also my lgs has a very varied meta game. Sometimes I face all combo and sometimes I face all delver.
Like I said I feel good about a number of my match ups but I've be3n considering a 4th top to help with the consistency.
Not being able to block makes Bloodghast so much worse. Seriously tempted to go super creature heavy with Tortured Existence and Krovikan Horror.Originally Posted by emuhell
Has anyone else put any more thought or development into this list recently? It looked pretty fun.
Yes. Just play Dredge. Manaless or regular, both are good in the current meta.
As a Manaless pilot I can tell you Pharaoh is hilarious. It's also a nice lightning rod for Surgical Extraction and things like that. anyDelver.dec usually already is a pretty good MU though, so why spend valuable SB slots on that?
For consistency you can add Sylvan Library. It's ridiculously good. Don't like your MB as a whole though. It seems to be all over the place, with far too many cards @CMC >= 3 and too little acceleration to power them out.
As for SBs, mine is currently set up like this:
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm (which might change to something else. They do a lot of work vs. D&T though)
2 Pithing Needle
Vs. Sneak & Show, you board in the Lost Legacies, Duresses, Extractions and Pithing Needles (and possibly Teeg. You still lose when they have the nuts, but have a good fighting chance otherwise. W/ blind Therapy you name Show & Tell first, fatties second. Lost Legacy first takes Emrakul, then Griselbrand. Needle you put on either Sneak Attack or Griselbrand, depending on what you know of your opponents' hand.
Last edited by Echelon; 02-28-2017 at 05:44 AM.
I believe Stryfo is currently trying to test Dragonlord Silumgar instead of Ojutai, and -1 Intuition for +1 Liliana of the Veil. A single Bayou switched for another Underground Sea. Side includes a Deluge instead of the 4th Deed (I believe) - updated sideboard in general but I think I posted it earlier (2-3 Lost Legacy in it). I'm trying to test whenever I get the chance, but I only have the list in paper so far and my local group is very finicky.
Online, I'm going through a league with Sneak Fit having 2 Carpets and 1 C Brutality main. Playing Carpet on turn 1 on the draw against Miracles feels so good, it feels so right. Especially when you have another 1 cmc play to cast in 2nd main.
Think the 2nd Empath feels right. Nice to just load up the hand with another fatty, and get either a chump blocker or Tower sac / Therapy hit in.
@ Dragon Fit:
Here are a few comments:
- I believe Dromoka and Drifting Death are better than Silumgar Dragonlord.
- The intuition package is too "low" to justify 3 intuition. 1 intuition + 1 Entomb is enough to my taste.
- Jace + Liliana is how you win 80 to 90 % of your games. I suggest the following PW split: 2 Lilia, 2 Jace, 1 NF & 1 Ugin.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
I have no experience with the deck (still on the Sneak Train for now / not enough blue duals in paper), but I put together a draft of it for eventual testing that ran 3 dragons instead of two - Dragonlord Dromoka; Silumgar, the Drifting Death; and Dragonlord Ojutai. If you're going to run Haven, you may as well have a few different options depending on the matchup.
Ugin just seems super, super greedy and there isn't a ton of synergy with the rest of the deck. I agree that 2-3 Intuition feels more correct than 4.
Finding room for Liliana does seem to be problematic - Nissa and Jace are just really, really good cards.
Has Raven's Crime been any good for folks? I feel like there's just so much going on in this list - Dragons, Intuition, Loam, Raven's Crime, Planeswalkers. It feels like this list has a ton of potential and is already good / playable, but also like it maybe needs to gain some consistency.
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I ran Sneak Fit last night at a weekly. Lost Round 1 to BUG Delver (T2 Hymns both games stripped 3 Deeds between them, his game two threats were all in the air - Clique, Delver, Delver). I won round 2 in the most disappointing fashion possible - a Bye. After hanging around, I beat Burn and Bant Deathblade. The deathblade match is up on my LGS's twitch channel (CardKingdom), Round 4 (around last 40 minutes of the stream). Don't judge me for the godawful misplays - I was really tired and fell into the trap of planning several turns ahead instead of thinking about what I was doing NOW :). Thankfully, flinging Emrakul at your opponent makes up for a couple of misplays, as does hard-casting Massacre Wurm.
A couple of weekends ago I brought Nyx Fit to the win-a-mox tournament at Valhalla Games in Columbus, MO. My buddy and I drove four hours Friday to stay with our mutual friend in St. Louis, then dragged ourselves, hungover and grumpy, another two hours Saturday morning for the tournament. I wasn't in my best state of mind, but I rarely am when I play Legacy. I went a respectable 3-3 on the day before my buddy and I dropped to make the two-hour trek back to St. Louis to drown our woes.
Now a week and a half later I struggle to remember some details, but I'll do what I can. I settled on this list (61 cards main):
Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Scrublands
1 Savannah
Creatures: 13
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Non-creatures: 26
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sterling Grove
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Living Plane
1 Nether Void
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Parallax Wave
1 Faith's Fetters
2 Starfield of Nyx
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Humility
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Chromanticore
Round one: loss to Maverick in three games. Teeg and Reclamation Sage did good work in game one. In game two, Pernicious Deed paved the way to a pretty quick Sigarda win. In game three, I got impatient and tried to assemble Starfield through Sterling Grove after my opponent tried to hit the Grove with a Rec Sage. As a follow-up, he then Zenithed for Teeg to prevent my casting the Starfield atop my library. I should have gone for a Deed instead. Know your role, folks! This should have been a victory. I believe my opponent went on to top eight, so at least I died for a Noble cause.
Round two: win over Domain Zoo in three games. My opponent's list hadn't been updated since the printing of TNN, but that didn't make the match feel any more comfortable. Successive Tribal Flames won him a quick game one, but Chromanticore was tremendous in games two and three. He had no choice but to burn it to death, then watched helplessly as I recurred it with Starfield. At one point I Therapied and he revealed a hand clogged with Abrupt Decay. So many people board that in against Nyx Fit only to find it's of no use.
Round three: loss to Elves in three games. Game one, he endured a three-for-one turn-two Toxic Deluge but still proceeded to go off quickly. I won game two through recurring Deeds, and in game three I cast an early Humility, but was unable to find a sweeper (or even a tutor for one) before he managed to get there via 1/1 beats.
Round four: win over Grixis Delver (piloted by my road-trip buddy) in three games. We'd practiced this matchup a lot and knew each other's lists intimately. Game three went to turns and I won on my last turn when I cracked a Rector and put Living Plane in play, which triggered Doomwake Giant to wipe his board of permanents and gave me six or seven 1/1 land attackers.
Round five: a very quick 0-2 loss to Belcher. In game two I had Leyline of Humility in my opening hand, so I kept it. However, he spilled out twelve goblins turn one, and I was unable to topdeck a sweeper.
Round six: win over BR Reanimator in three games. Game one, he played a Sire turn one, and that was that. He didn't get a good sense of what my deck was up to, so he had to sideboard in the blind. Game two, I slapped down a Leyline of the Void as the game began, and he conceded immediately. Game three, I began again with a Leyline, but by his lack of concession I figured he had now boarded correctly into Reverent Silences. We spun our wheels for a few turns before I drew a Therapy, named Reverent Silence—and hit! He had been unable to find a green source in time to cast it. Eventually I wiped his board of lands, a fine play on which to end the day.
Overall, the deck behaved well all day and presented me with the opportunity for a winning record (even if I didn't live up to its promise). In retrospect, the meta felt very fair, and I likely should have run more copies of Pernicious Deed, perhaps in place of the Abrupt Decays, or else the Eidolon of Rhetoric and Courser of Kruphix, both of which did little work. Sadly I never had cause (or in case of cause, never had opportunity) to tutor up my favorite precious bauble Nether Void, but I feel sure it's correct to play it if you own it.
Last edited by Lobo; 03-01-2017 at 08:25 AM.
Let me know if you are able to get any runs in with those changes. I don't want to speak for Stryfo, but simply assume he doesn't check on here that often - he did mention Silumgar and indicated possible issues with D&T. I'm thinking that a 6 mana investment isn't quite what you are looking for if you need to wipe x/1's off the board. Too slow against Elves, and too expensive for D&T and Young Pyromancer decks.
I'd advise against losing the 3rd Jace. You both 1) really want to draw into them naturally and 2) want the option to Intuition for them.
I haven't had the chance to test Raven's Crime that much but I've already seen it rip hands apart. Once on me when I was on Sneak and against Stryfo online, and the one time I ran it at my local it ate up 3 cards from the Infect player's hand (but I'd already flooded too much to recover).
Possible swaps for Raven's Crime could be Darkblast(!), or some sort of Unburial Rites mini-package? Although Unburial on a dragon might be enough to get there.
With Loam, I think that getting to 8 mana is very possible in any grindy matchup, and Ugin is extremely hard for any deck to answer. Plus we do not have GSZ in order to get Dragons from the bottom of our deck after a Terminus.
This is where I was 3 weeks ago but I didn't go further:
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Entomb
1 Intuition
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 Negate
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Treat it similarly to D&T. Your #1 goal in the matchup is to not get manascrewed. If my opponent is on a heavy mana denial plan, using my current SB I bring in additional lands and additional manadorks.
It might feel bad cutting your action to bring in mana, but it feels even worse to have a hand of cards you can't play.
D&T is quite a bit easier in that regard. They don't mess with fetchlands and Explorer triggers.
Aven Mindcensor disagrees. That card is such a blowout.
Meren can turn any creature into Squee.
I've been thinking about this - I think the card I'm looking for is Life from the Loam. There's got to be something we can do in a shell like this:
4 Veteran
1 Witness
1 Tracker
4 Zenith
4 Therapy
3 Collective Brutality
2 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nissa, Vital Force
8 Fetchlands
Lots of synergy. Loam feeds Liliana and Brutality. Fetchlands feed Loam and Tracker. Nissa rebuys important dredged cards. Lili / Brutality / Deed gives us a good removal spread (sweep/spot/sac covers basically everything, Deed kills noncreature permanents - +1 Maelstrom Pulse variant for planeswalkers). Loam is 'yard dependent but the rest of the list is synergistic without getting completely blown out by RIP. Still in two colour shell so splash whatever. 7 discard spells + 3 Liliana for combo matchups. ~12 slots left for more toolbox options and wincons.
It's also 3 mana instead of 1. W/ Vial it comes down T4 at best. And you can interact with it before your fetch/Explorer trigger resolves.
This is where I'm heading right now. Pure GB style with a not so bad combo MU.
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Entomb
2 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard **under pressure** (unfinished)
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Raven's Crime
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
Few comments after a good test phase:
- Tracker is not needed. Courser is way beyond better
- The deck is slow.
- GQ or Wasteland has still be assessed.
- I'm not afraid of any deck with that setup right now.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Tracker is dependent on what speed you want to go at. He is way more agressive but Courser obviously grinds really well.
Collective Brutality is just better than Hymn I think. Particularly since it kills DRS which is a big issue for your deck.
To me the list you're running here looks good against combo but would have trouble with some fair matchups. You're kind of low on actual threats and you don't really have much in the way of CA engines other than Loam, which you only have one way of tutoring. I'd be worried about playing so many 0-for-1s in the deck like Rotation and Entomb.
Rotation & Entomb
Well that might be true but has yet to be witnessed from testing.
Rotation is usually not a 0 for 1. It either provides a countermeasure against wasteland or some accel (tower) or CA (stronghold) in a long run.
I acknowledge Entomb might be cute as you would only fetch CT or Loam.
DRS
DRS is not the issue you claim it is; even if it has to be killed fast (but this is likely the case for every Nic Fit deck) as it messes up with some of our cards (a bit more here, but not to the extend where it shuts you up).
Truth is you don't always need to kill him on sight:
- DRS pinging you for 2 is usually not a big deal
- You can delay any of your "engines" against DRS deck
- DRS usually means that you should expect "overextension" from your oppo (definitely what you are looking for when you play Deed). It is even more true since I'm playing Lili + HTT which encourage your oppo to play his spells instead of keeping them in his hands.
Low on threats
Yes. But this is a control deck by essence. I'm not seeking multiple threats. This is rather an attrition war machine:
1) You focus on ramping and messing up with oppo's game (veteran, CT, hymn)
2) Then, you seek topdeck mode for both of you and start digging out of your hole faster than your oppo.
3) You stabilize
4) You win
2 & 3 are mixed altogether.
Collective Brutality
Thanks for the idea. I'll assess it but as a 1-of to begin with. I do play the card in my Suicide deck but HTT is really strong.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Stronghold isn't CA. It's card selection, but doesn't actually draw you cards unless you're recurring a creature which provides CA (in which case it's the creature that's the CA, not Stronghold).
DRS - it looks to me like your only real source of advantage against an opponent that doesn't overextend into Deed is either Loam, Nissa, or a fatty. Thrag isn't super impactful (though he gets the job done), Grave Titan and Nissa you can't tutor for, and Loam is vulnerable to Deathrite - feels like you need some great topdecks or a standard boardstate like TNN+DRS or just JTMS is going to run you over in card advantage pretty quickly.
Hymn is strong early but is a pretty bad topdeck - I'd rather have more consistency, but if you like it do go ahead.
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