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Thread: [Primer] Nic Fit

  1. #3841

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    @Bruizar

    I hope you are not trolling

    Unfortunately we did not get anything good from WotS. Unless the metagame will change significantly.
    Concerning the new Nissa. In Nic Fit if you want to play a 5 mana green planeswalker. You play Nissa VF main, if you really want to add another PW you add another Nissa VF. The other viable Green 5 mana PW will be Garruk Primal Hunter in my opinion or if you want to play a pet card, spice up the deck. .
    I do not see any other G 5 mana PW worth playing atm.

    @grokh

    I think if you really have a problem with D&T, Goblins, Elf. It is better to play Massacre Wurm. At least when you hard cast it you win the game on the spot. But Pernicious deed main deck should be sufficient to slow/kill your opponent.

    Not trolling.




    Comparison
    First Ability: +1
    VF: +1 5/5 until end of turn, 4 turn clock (5+5+5+5), can be spot removed, limited impact against sweepers, can't defend Nissa while applying pressure, no inevitability.
    WSW: +1 3/3 permanently, also vigilance so + 2 mana since you can attack and tap for mana, 3 turn clock (3+6+9), can be spot removed, multiples susceptible to Terminus, also gives you 2 mana back the turn it comes into play like Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, can defend Nissa while applying pressure, inevitability.

    My Verdict: Nissa, Who Shakes the World offers more utility, more pressure, more resilience.

    Second Ability: -3
    VF: A regrowth for a permanent is great, imo especially in conjunction with Pernicious Deed or Eternal Witness.

    WSW: Instead of the -3, Nissa, Who Shakes the World has a static ability that immediately ramps into your biggest threats. I consider it a 'static ultimate', or a "0 loyalty emblem" except it won't use up your Planeswalker activation. You will go from 5 mana to 9 mana at least if you miss your 6th land drop, or 11 mana if you hit your 6th land drop.). Thus, you can hardcast, or turn your GSZ into any of these bombs the the turn after:


    I believe playing any of the above bombs is usually more powerful than the -3 of Nissa, Vital Force.

    Another line of play is this: On 5 lands, you can cast WSW, untap a bayou, play a Veteran Explorer and a Cabal Therapy twice, grab 2 forests and add another GGGG to your mana pool, for instance for Eternal Witness or GSZ for Eternal Witness.

    Ultimate
    VF: Drawing cards is nice, but slow. It's especially bad if you draws land with your land drops, compared to WSW which draws an arbitrarily large amount of lands and places them onto the battlefield immediately. Extra bonus if you have Tireless Tracker.
    WSW: immediately puts all your green duals, forests and dryad arbor in play, and make your army of land creatures indestructible. This massively filters your deck so you draw into business and just skips the grindy long plan of Nissa, Vital Force.

    The static abilities of War of the Spark planeswalkers are categorically underestimated and misevaluated. During spoiler season, Nissa Who Shakes the World did not gain much attention since it's not a 'sexy walker' but another 'boring' Nissa. Call it Nissa fatigue. Those who played the prerelease will attest the immensely high power level of this set. I think that it is not me that is sitting on a high horse, but Echelon who dismisses the fourth most popular card of War of the Spark on MCM as unplayable trash because the micro community of Nicfit's discord seems to side with his opinion according to him, while apparently the greater Magic community seems to like the card by now.


    These are my arguments. Not saying Vital Force is bad, but I am saying I believe it is outclassed.

  2. #3842

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Still very hesitant to be so on board with the Forests-double-mana static ability. You want to include Terastodon/Primus/Progenitus? Sure, but that sounds like a NO Nic Fit list and would be a new variant - and sure, sounds like she could work in such a deck to help enable GSZ to grab the same threat that NO could grab. You are comparing a "more mana" static ability to a Regrowth effect in a deck that plays Deed and other high-powered stuff to return from the yard. More mana that requires a GSZ in hand(!) -and- something 6+ mana to abuse with it...sounds to me this just tilts the deck (normal variants that is) in more of the dangerous mana-ramp style of play. AKA you run the risk of drawing Progenitus or other fatties at inappropriate times. Has been the curse even moreso in this deck ever since Top was banned.

    Vital Force's card draw ult can happen the turn after she comes down. So it's usually something on the table, and the card advantage will bury control lists. Going to be an exceedingly rare occasion where you have stuck the walker and kept it there for the following 3 turns. To be rewarded with...getting another Bayou or two and Savannah onto the table?

    Still feels like VF compliments traditional lists much better. Curious about a list with a couple NO thrown in though, I like how new Nissa turns GSZ into a tool to grab the same stuff. Not excited to be incentived to be playing much more Forests tho.

  3. #3843
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    @bruizar Glad to hear that needs of draft players, standard, modern, legacy, vintage and edh players are all equal. Obviously if a card is great in drafts it must be great in everything that plays Forests, even if they typically just run 2-3. Happy to be on that horse with you though, the view is great from up it.

    In all seriousness if your best advice is to make Nic Fit even more top heavy and reliant on lots of mana you'd be better off suggesting we play Natural Order b/c at least that'd speed the whole process up considerably. Glad you're here to save the ignorant Nic Fit community though. Your kind efforts are appreciated. We'd be lost without them.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  4. #3844

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    @bruizar Glad to hear that needs of draft players, standard, modern, legacy, vintage and edh players are all equal. Obviously if a card is great in drafts it must be great in everything that plays Forests, even if they typically just run 2-3. Happy to be on that horse with you though, the view is great from up it.
    Since when do draft players buy singles. I was merely stating that the card is underestimated during spoiler season for lack of appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    In all seriousness if your best advice is to make Nic Fit even more top heavy and reliant on lots of mana you'd be better off suggesting we play Natural Order b/c at least that'd speed the whole process up considerably. Glad you're here to save the ignorant Nic Fit community though. Your kind efforts are appreciated. We'd be lost without them.
    Here we can have a bit of a real discussion. There is natural tension between late game bombs and the needs of the early game. Why else run veteran explorer, if not to accelerate into the late game where you should be at a strategic advantage because of more high impact spells? So, yes you need some bombs so you can overpower your opponents late game plays, but how 'bomby' is too much? That is a good discussion to have since there are multiple styles and decklists that will each answer this question in a different way.

    One way is to add Finale of Devastation and remove all the bombs. Then use Nissa, Who Shakes the World's static ability to cast an X=10 Finale and alpha strike with a veteran explorer and a witness (returning Finale). This gives you early game utility and a late game finisher in one card. Between 3/3 beatdown and finale you should have plenty of ways to close out games.

    The strongest argument against Nissa, Who Shakes the World, is that it makes your own pernicious deeds much worse, as you will blow up your lands if you don't have the indestructibility emblem, and Deed is an archetypical card for Nic Fit. At least with Vital Force you can play around your own deeds. However, WSW's ultimate gets you your lands back anyway so you're not getting landlocked if you have to deed your own lands.

    With that said, you guys have zoomed in particularly on the static ability right now, which I think we can only fairly compare to the -3. WSW can +1 AND enjoy the benefits of the static ability at the same time the moment it comes into play. If you play VF and -3 immediately you will probably not have the mana to cast anything you got back, and if you can then it won't be high impact. Using the -3 also virtually disables your ability to reach the ultimate. Again, not saying that VF is bad, but it has some weaknesses that static ability planeswalkers don't have.

  5. #3845
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    There's been a lot of discussion on how the curve should look like. One of the most common ways the deck loses is by not being able to develop the manabase far enough and as a result have all the good stuff stuck in your hand or countered. That's where the hesitance on being reliant on even more mana comes from. I mean, Legacy as a format is all about efficiency, and we do have to respect that. Fall too far behind on card velocity and you get in serious trouble. That means that typically you don't want to rely on any one card to make another playable when you could just as well drop something like Thragtusk, Sigarda or Archon of Valor's Reach and probably take over the game from there. You trade in brute force for consistency and ease of execution.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  6. #3846

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    @Bruizer: 3+6+9=18 my friend. Not quite a 3 turn clock. 4 turn, sure, but then WSW is in the same boat as VF, but with more downsides. Being able to beat 5-loyalty Jace profitably isn't something WSW is capable of, either in the way VF does.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  7. #3847

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    There's been a lot of discussion on how the curve should look like. One of the most common ways the deck loses is by not being able to develop the manabase far enough and as a result have all the good stuff stuck in your hand or countered. That's where the hesitance on being reliant on even more mana comes from. I mean, Legacy as a format is all about efficiency, and we do have to respect that. Fall too far behind on card velocity and you get in serious trouble. That means that typically you don't want to rely on any one card to make another playable when you could just as well drop something like Thragtusk, Sigarda or Archon of Valor's Reach and probably take over the game from there. You trade in brute force for consistency and ease of execution.
    Very valid points. It's a fine balance between going over the top and playing cards that just slightly outclass your opponents top end.

  8. #3848
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Very valid points. It's a fine balance between going over the top and playing cards that just slightly outclass your opponents top end.
    Yup

    The risk is that you end up just coming short b/c you don't have enough punching power. As you very correctly said it is a very fine balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  9. #3849
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I hope I am not late to the party. Sorry but working and having a 1 year old girl at home does not help.

    @Bruizar

    I disagree with your comparison of Nissa VF and Nissa WSW.
    First of all this PW will only be good against Control and Aggro. a 5 mana PW is too slow against the current combo decks.

    NVF +1 can make a 5/5 which trades very well with Gurmag Angler, 4/5 Goyf, Goose, Mandrills, BSkull etc....
    It is not the case with a 3/3 made by NWSW.
    Also in a world where the best removal spells are StP, Bolt, Emrakul and Terminus opening yourself to bolt is not very good, same as loosing multiple lands to the white exterminatus.
    The 5/5 kills Jace the Wallet Sculptor, yes, this is VERY important. The next PW you want to hit, will be Liliana of the veil. I did not seen any other PW recently, I do not count people playing Punishing Dack. The 3/3 will not kill a uptick PW.

    Concerning the passive ability.
    Our deck really dont need this type of mana acceleration. If you play a PW on turn 5 than on turn 6 you can have a GSZ for 4 with NVF, with NWSW you might be able to have it for 6. At this state of the game I do not thing there is really a difference to have a 5/5 + Siege rhino/Meren/etc or have 2x 3/3 and Archon/Dromoka/Primetime/etc, both will win you the game in two turns, both will die to Wrath effect.

    Concerning mana production on opponents turn.
    NVF allow you to untap any land and turn it into a 5/5
    NWSW will only be beneficial if you animate into a 3/3 a Forest land.
    The only spells you would like to cast on your opponent’s turn will be:
    PtE, StP, Decay, Trophy, C-Rotation, D-Edict.
    None of those cards require GG (I would love a GG destroy a crit or PW) so most of the time if you want to apply some special tactics in your opponent’s turn, you have to animate a Bayou or Savannah. Good luck with all the Wastelands around. And loosing a Dual to StP can hurt sometimes if you have awkward hand.

    Ultimate.
    NVF +1
    NWSW +3
    I think this is it.
    Indestructible will not be beneficial in Legacy where the only massive board wipe are W instant and shuffle your deck. Good luck when you ult your WSW and lose your elemtals. Btw if you manage to play a PW on turn 5 and ult it four turns later you are definitely winning the game. It does not matter what PW you are playing: Big Sorin, Small Sorin, Kaya GA, Big Elspeth, Small Elspeth, Flip Garruk, Angrath, Jace etc...

    If they really wanted to make Nissa WSW playable in Multiple format not only in Type 2.
    This is how she will look like:

    1GGG
    Nissa, Who Destroys the World
    Whenever you tap a Land for mana, add an additional G.
    +1: Put Four +1/+1 counters on up to one target land you control. Untap it. It becomes a 0/0 Elemental creature with Vigilance, Trample and Haste that's still a land.
    −8: You get an emblem with "Lands you control have indestructible." Search your library for any number of Land cards, put them onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. Put Two +1/+1 Counters on all your lands. They become 0/0 Elemental creatures with Vigilance, Trample and Haste that's still a land.
    5 Loyalty

    Like I have said before, we really did not get anything in this set. If you really want to play a new PW and jump on the PW hype train.
    I suggest you have a look at Davriel.
    I do not have much time at the moment and play very sporadically but i am working on heavy discard build with Davriel.
    This is the core (the rest is irrelevant at the moment):

    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 GSZ
    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 CT
    1 Duress/Thoughtseize/IoK
    3 Collective Brutality
    3 Davriel
    1 Kaya GA

    The point is to go:
    1. Turn 1 GSZ for Arbor -> turn 2 Davriel
    2. Turn 1 VE -> turn 2 CT + Davriel
    3. Turn 1 CT-> turn 2 Collective Brutality -> turn 3 Davriel
    4. Turn 1 TS/Duress-> turn 2 Collective Brutality -> turn 3 Davriel
    Turn 4 will be a crit that apply protection and more pressure like Siege Rhino or any other 4 mana beast.

    After a couple of games, the conclusion is: it applies a very strong disruption on combo (S&S), control (Miracles) and Xerox (UR Delver) decks (these are the ones I was able to playtest). And this is what I want from Nic Fit, Nic Fit is about Pressure. Your opponent has to fill the cord slowly clenching around his neck. Nic Fit is about overwhelming your opponent.

    I wanted to Playtest this build first before posting, but i just do not have time to play Mtg until the end of June. And you guys can work a little on this type of deck.
    By this time i would like to have a proper deck and be ready for some cool stuff from Modern Horizon that will catapult our deck to Tier 0 and maybe a meta adjustment after the new muligan rule (pls ban BS).
    Where the hell is my Garruk Destroyer of the Worlds, I hope they will make him OP.

    Cheers

  10. #3850
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    In a rare instance of impulse buying packs, I cracked a couple War of the Spark this weekend and got a Finale of Devastation. Is this deck in the market for a 5th GSZ effect, that also does a passable reanimator job due to our mana engine?
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  11. #3851

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    In a rare instance of impulse buying packs, I cracked a couple War of the Spark this weekend and got a Finale of Devastation. Is this deck in the market for a 5th GSZ effect, that also does a passable reanimator job due to our mana engine?
    Most people I've talked to don't seem particularly impressed. I wouldn't mind seeing it 1-2 of at most to beef up the number of GSZ. There are certain situations where they are very similar. Having 3 lands is one such case. Usually most lists don't have any stellar 2 drops (Ooze is about the only one I'd care to grab) and so in this case, Finale can grab a Vet and continue to ramp you. I'd definitely grab one from the Library though, in order to help reduce drawing them later. The issue is the number of times you will be at 2 mana and really wish the Finale was a GSZ in order to grab a Vet.

    Finale opens you up to have a more consistent while limited creature selection. Here's what I mean about that. Most silver bullets do 1 thing, and don't overlap (think Teeg). If the opponent can answer it, then they might win and you don't have a backup. Finale being able to get stuff back from the yard could add in some redundancy. Yes I know that Teeg would be answered end of your turn by the storm player and then they'd go off, but think about something like Thragtusk. Most lists have a single Thragtusk as board presence + lifegain. If you do end up trading Thragtusk for Angler and then the opponent is re-applying pressure with their Delver and you need a source of lifegain (but oh no that Thragtusk was your only option!) then voila, you have Finale to reuse the tusk. Bit smoother than going GSZ -> E Wit and getting Tusk to hand again. And Finale on a dead E Wit means you can get anything back which is really neat.

    Nongreen also opens up some possibilities. I've seen BUG lists which limit the number of GSZ they play. Could replace with Finale. Vets, Strixes, Thief of Sanity, and Finale? Brainstorms to smooth draws? 5 mana for a Thief sounds pretty nice. Not sure about being excited for 4 mana for a Strix.

  12. #3852

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    In a rare instance of impulse buying packs, I cracked a couple War of the Spark this weekend and got a Finale of Devastation. Is this deck in the market for a 5th GSZ effect, that also does a passable reanimator job due to our mana engine?
    I think that if you want a 5th GSZ, Chord of Calling is the better alternative.

    In terms of rate, GSZ costs an additional 1 to get a creature at sorcery. Finale is 2 to get a creature at sorcery, albeit with slightly better selection (though you can already do this at slightly more mana, with the ability to split it over turns by getting Eternal Witness). Chord of Calling is 3 additional, but since you can convoke it you're paying 2 additional in practice generally, so at just that it's already comparable to Finale, but then since Chord is an instant you're getting far better timing out of it, allowing you to use it when there's an opening or as "haste". I don't think we can take Finale's =10+ text into consideration.

  13. #3853
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Good points, both. I'm still on an expedition into Maverick land but I keep this deck in my back pocket if something really powerful gets added to tip the scales. If Finale doesn't do that I don't really see anything else in War that would contribute.
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  14. #3854
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Can you chain Finale of Devastation?

    For example cast finale for 3 -> grab E-Witness from deck and Tracker from Graveyard. Use E-Witness to return Finale to your hand.
    Next turn sac E -Witness to Ph-Tower cast Finale for 3 grab back E-Witness targeting Finale and another crit from your deck.
    Repeat process each turn.

    Is it possible to establish a loop like that?

    If yes this might be very useful to outgrind your opponent.

  15. #3855
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    Can you chain Finale of Devastation?

    For example cast finale for 3 -> grab E-Witness from deck and Tracker from Graveyard. Use E-Witness to return Finale to your hand.
    Next turn sac E -Witness to Ph-Tower cast Finale for 3 grab back E-Witness targeting Finale and another crit from your deck.
    Repeat process each turn.

    Is it possible to establish a loop like that?

    If yes this might be very useful to outgrind your opponent.
    It is one creature not two.
    You get to choose between grave or library but you only get one.

  16. #3856
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    Can you chain Finale of Devastation?

    For example cast finale for 3 -> grab E-Witness from deck and Tracker from Graveyard. Use E-Witness to return Finale to your hand.
    Next turn sac E -Witness to Ph-Tower cast Finale for 3 grab back E-Witness targeting Finale and another crit from your deck.
    Repeat process each turn.

    Is it possible to establish a loop like that?

    If yes this might be very useful to outgrind your opponent.
    Profane Command is better with Eternal Witness, it has more useful modes, creates a loop, and the drain for X creates inevitability. But we haven't seen Profane Command in legacy in years.
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  17. #3857
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    It is one creature not two.
    You get to choose between grave or library but you only get one.
    You are right, completely miss interpreted the card.

  18. #3858

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    The deck is doing pretty well now. 3 Nic Fit lists 5-0ed on MTGO yesterday

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...19-05-04#paper

    Nic Fit
    Creatures (10)
    1 Dryad Arbor 0.33
    4 Veteran Explorer g 2.52
    3 Academy Rector 3w 20.85
    2 Arena Rector 3w 5.44
    Planeswalkers (2)
    1 Karn Liberated 7 30.97
    1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon 8 0.07
    Spells (14)
    4 Cabal Therapy b 3.28
    3 Thoughtseize b 14.37
    1 Assassin's Trophy bg 5.79
    3 Living Wish 1g 1.20
    1 Toxic Deluge 2b 2.53
    2 Eureka 2gg 0.02
    Enchantments (12)
    2 Evolutionary Leap 1g 0.04
    3 Sylvan Library 1g 0.06
    2 Pernicious Deed 1bg 2.12
    1 Curse of Death's Hold 3bb 0.01
    1 Curse of Misfortunes 4b 0.01
    1 Dovescape 3wuwuwu 0.01
    1 Cruel Reality 5bb 0.02
    1 Overwhelming Splendor 6ww 0.06
    Lands (22)
    2 Ancient Tomb 17.80
    2 Bayou 3.88
    1 Cavern of Souls 14.93
    2 Phyrexian Tower 6.90
    1 Savannah 0.73
    1 Scrubland 0.33
    3 Snow-Covered Forest 0.12
    1 Snow-Covered Plains 0.06
    2 Swamp 0.00
    4 Verdant Catacombs 41.44
    3 Windswept Heath 11.46
    Sideboard (15)
    1 Cavern of Souls 14.93
    1 Karakas 2.12
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 2.43
    2 Surgical Extraction bp 78.08
    1 Containment Priest 1w 7.75
    1 Ethersworn Canonist 1w 0.03
    1 Scavenging Ooze 1g 7.18
    1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 1w 0.52
    1 Choke 2g 2.59
    2 Faerie Macabre 1bb 0.10
    1 Reclamation Sage 2g 0.04
    1 Academy Rector 3w 6.95
    1 Arena Rector 3w 2.72
    75 Cards Total

    Nic Fit
    Creatures (14)
    3 Veteran Explorer g 0.99
    1 Gaddock Teeg gw 7.85
    1 Satyr Wayfinder 1g 0.15
    1 Scavenging Ooze 1g 4.46
    2 Stoneforge Mystic 1w 69.98
    1 Eternal Witness 1gg 4.33
    1 Knight of Autumn 1gw 3.49
    2 Tireless Tracker 2g 20.00
    1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth 2bg 16.96
    1 Thragtusk 4g 2.55
    Planeswalkers (2)
    1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin 2wb 20.23
    1 Nissa, Vital Force 3gg 4.44
    Spells (16)
    4 Cabal Therapy b 7.56
    4 Green Sun's Zenith xg 38.68
    3 Swords to Plowshares w 3.75
    4 Assassin's Trophy bg 46.36
    1 Toxic Deluge 2b 25.36
    Artifacts (1)
    1 Batterskull 5 16.57
    Enchantments (5)
    3 Sylvan Library 1g 119.97
    2 Pernicious Deed 1bg 7.90
    Lands (22)
    2 Bayou 597.98
    4 Forest 0.00
    1 Karakas 20.82
    2 Marsh Flats 83.98
    1 Phyrexian Tower 11.14
    1 Plains 0.00
    1 Savannah 187.02
    1 Scrubland 189.99
    2 Swamp 0.00
    4 Verdant Catacombs 294.08
    3 Windswept Heath 51.15
    Sideboard (15)
    1 Pithing Needle 1 2.22
    3 Surgical Extraction bp 168.60
    3 Thoughtseize b 42.57
    2 Containment Priest 1w 9.36
    2 Ethersworn Canonist 1w 17.78
    3 Choke 2g 11.37
    1 Toxic Deluge 2b 25.36

  19. #3859
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I cannot afford 2 Eureka, I will prefer to spend that money on more playable cards.

  20. #3860
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Eureka isn't necessary, you can build with Rectors alone. That list is only playing 2 Rectors and 2 Eureka, just play 4 Rectors if you're interested in building it. It's slanted much more towards Academy Rector anyways, which is already a known quantity.
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