[Primer] Nic Fit

[Navsi]

EDIT: Has anyone tried Infernal Plunge? That fills all the requirements for the sac card, while getting you to 6 mana T2. That happens to be the magic number for Titans and other goodies. The SneakAttack version could hit for lethal T2 with that mana as well.

Culling the Weak is where you want to be for that sort of thing. It's not particularly good, though:

- Awful topdeck
- Need both Plunge and Explorer in opener - Zenithing Explorer still puts us a turn behind, at which point it's hardly better than Therapy
- Need big payoff card in hand - three card combo is not easy to assemble (4 if we're going for Sneak - Fatty), especially without filtering
- Doesn't actually win us the game
- Phyrexian Tower does similar thing, repeatably, in a land slot
- Always a 2 for 0, if we use it to ritual out a threat and it gets Forced the opponent is still up in cards.

[tescrin]

stuff about Plunge being bad

Ah Culling! I thought I remembered a card like that but didn't have time to look it up.

These are all excellent points. Crop Rotation can enable anti-combo interaction, protect your manabase, and still get you to 5 mana, etc. and natural Tower is quite nice, while the cards that require you to sac to be effective have only a single use.

Thanks!

[Brael]

I love the idea of Crop Rotations, but apart from Bojuka Bog I don't own any worthy CR targets. And then there's the ever present question of in what available space to put them.

You don't? Phyrexian Tower is a pretty damn good CR target (probably the best one). Stronghold is good too. That's the great thing about CR, you don't need to go out of your way for it. Bog and the Two Towers are already enough on their own.

[Ganfar]

:-( true, i have been pondering on the PFire list, but it feels that the grind has been taken out of the grind. Currently i have been looking at a slightly different approach that is a bit more lands heavy.
Not all really new elements, rather just a mash-up from what was already there. Mostly i was looking for that synergy between Meren/Arbor/Tracker/Courser/Titania coupled with some ways to finish that game.
All in all i believe PFire lists NEED Liliana of the Veil to add some missing reach. Heres the list for reference (no board, since that's always fluid).
Also in here i was looking for Crop Rotation, but i couldn't find any more room...


1x Dryad Arbor
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thragtusk
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Primeval Titan
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Kessig Wolf Run

I have tried to play with Titania, Protector of Argoth in P.F Jund before. The biggest issue is that you have to little fetchlands. It was often Tiania comes in to play with no lands in the graveyard. Then I have a 5/3 for 5 vanlia. That was baaad. The list I played had 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and less fetchlands so it maybe can work.

I think Meren of Clan Nel Totn and Thrun, the Last Troll is better now when Terminus is gone. If BUG becomes pouplar then Meren of Clan Nel Totn will be really good. Thrun smash Delver decks with counter spells.

3 unitly lands is one too much. Either have Kessig Wolf Run or Volrath's Stronghold. I have been more impress with Kessig when I have play with it. Veteran Explorer becomes a threat with Wolf run!

I want one more Tracker and Huntmaster in main.

Other then that I like the list :)

[Brael]

I had been thinking about Nissa Vital Force for a while. She seems really powerful against control decks, but a bit weak against aggro. She puts a fast clock against combo decks too, but it's the same for any of our fat guys. I'm not 100% on it.

Without Terminus to deal with, I think Nissa, Vital Force gets a lot worse. I actually don't like her against combo because most combo decks have a bunch of basic lands, so I would rather not pop an Explorer against them, which means you can't cast Nissa in a timely fashion. She's great against control, but until a new control deck surfaces, I'm not really convinced she's needed. That was a big factor in my deciding to try out a SFM build right now.

[Barook]

Is there a reason why BUG lists don't seem to run Leovold?

At the very least, he seems like a great GSZ target.

[pettdan]

Is there a reason why BUG lists don't seem to run Leovold?

At the very least, he seems like a great GSZ target.

I checked back a few pages since I know at least I posted one. There are lists in posts 1155 and 1178 including Leovold.

[square_two]

Is there a reason why BUG lists don't seem to run Leovold?

At the very least, he seems like a great GSZ target.

I'm at 3 Trackers, 1 Leovold in my list. Leovold currently hasn't shined that much, but I'm only in my 2nd or so league with him.

Card is pretty expensive right now, might be a reason people are reluctant to try him.

[Brael]

Is there a reason why BUG lists don't seem to run Leovold?

At the very least, he seems like a great GSZ target.

I think there's a few reasons:
1. Leovold is kind of pricey right now, I know that's my reason for not picking him up.
2. The lands to run him are pretty pricey too. I've got a barebones set of duals for this right now, but many don't.
3. We don't actually need him. In a go big style build I like him, as a way to protect 4+ drops. But a lot of BUG lists have been following the SE approach of smaller curves, in which case Trackers just generate more value as your 3 drop. No one has managed to crack the blue puzzle yet. I think a lot of this has to do with FoW. Without FoW, the power of blue drops significantly. But Nic Fit already has Therapy+GSZ taking up all the spell slots that FoW could have. So even when going blue, you miss the most important part of the card. Then the rest of the blue plan has issues. Cantrips lower the lands in the deck, and for a deck that wants a lot of lands to Crop Rotation for, this actually hurts us.

I know I'm pretty negative on BUG in general (though I really do want to make it work), but the fundamental things blue do, seem to clash a lot.

[Brael]

I'm at 3 Trackers, 1 Leovold in my list. Leovold currently hasn't shined that much, but I'm only in my 2nd or so league with him.

Card is pretty expensive right now, might be a reason people are reluctant to try him.

Any thoughts on trying the 4 Tracker+Oboro plan?

[square_two]

Any thoughts on trying the 4 Tracker+Oboro plan?

I mean, it's cool I guess. I've been on 4 Trackers before and honestly I wouldn't think that the small hit in mana consistency with Oboro is really better than just having 9 fetches. Right now I'm at 21 lands with a single Stronghold and getting early land sequencing just perfect can be a struggle sometimes. Fetches are best with Tracker since you can guarantee two clues right off the bat. Plus I'm running 3 Brainstorm and 3 Jace, so shuffling is always good. Usually an unchecked Tracker over just a few turns of normal land drops is enough to pull you pretty far ahead.

[Echelon]

You don't? Phyrexian Tower is a pretty damn good CR target (probably the best one). Stronghold is good too. That's the great thing about CR, you don't need to go out of your way for it. Bog and the Two Towers are already enough on their own.

Interesting... I guess I have some thinking to do.

[from Cairo]

Also curious which matchup is the Treetop for?

I'm also curious.



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[tescrin]

Personally, I often ran a couple man lands with PTitan just because it made him more a GSZ-version of the Grave Titan.

[from Cairo]

Sure, but in that SE list Treetop Village a sb card in a shell w/o Primeval Titan, fetchable via Crop Rotation.


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[Brael]

I'm also curious.



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Anything attrition based.

[Warden]

I'm at 3 Trackers, 1 Leovold in my list. Leovold currently hasn't shined that much, but I'm only in my 2nd or so league with him.

Card is pretty expensive right now, might be a reason people are reluctant to try him.

I can't justify his paper price. He's a "maybe" card in the decks I run. I think Nic Fit just ramps bigger tbh.

[MrIggins]

Playing a charity tournament on Saturday with the following:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Night's Whisper
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Lightning Bolt

2 Pernicious Deed
4 Sneak Attack

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction

Haven't gotten to play as much lately so I don't have a ton of reps in but I feel fairly happy with this list. Impressions from my testing:
-Dryad Arbor is really good in this list. Better than in previous builds. Zenith for 0 is a turn 1 play that we have fewer of without Top, fetching into Therapy to resolve a Sneak is great, and it has great synergy with Intent.
-Intent is one of the higher-variance pieces of the list but I think 1 is needed, 2 remains to be seen but it helps tie the room together.
-Meren is a lot better now than she used to be.
-List is very much not final but it has legs and we're running with it.

[Bobmans]

I have tried to play with Titania, Protector of Argoth in P.F Jund before. The biggest issue is that you have to little fetchlands. It was often Tiania comes in to play with no lands in the graveyard. Then I have a 5/3 for 5 vanlia. That was baaad. The list I played had 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and less fetchlands so it maybe can work.

I think Meren of Clan Nel Totn and Thrun, the Last Troll is better now when Terminus is gone. If BUG becomes pouplar then Meren of Clan Nel Totn will be really good. Thrun smash Delver decks with counter spells.

3 unitly lands is one too much. Either have Kessig Wolf Run or Volrath's Stronghold. I have been more impress with Kessig when I have play with it. Veteran Explorer becomes a threat with Wolf run!

I want one more Tracker and Huntmaster in main.

Other then that I like the list :)

Following your comment, this is what we get:

1x Dryad Arbor
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Grove of the Burnwillows

[Navsi]

Did some testing with new Nissa. She seems reasonable if you're playing a creature heavy build that can protect her. Made her for 3 on turn 4 and user her +0 each turn, slamming SFM - miss - miss - Tracker which seems fine considering I wasn't manipulating my topdeck at all. I think you want 40+ creatures and lands before she goes in, probably with JTMS to support her.