Hi. I'm going to take a part in bigger tournament and need some of your advice ;)
Here's my decklist in which I need some help:
I'll try to borrow bayou and savannah but don't if I can ;)
LANDS 22
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
CREATURES 16
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer
INSTANTS and SORC. 17
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Path to Exile
OTHER SPELLS 5
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
SIDEBOARD 11
2 Carpet of Flowers (got playset)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Slaughter Games
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
Any suggestions? I have Tireless tracker, thragtusk, thrun,
Not every creature has to be a gsz target. I do like the fact that my rhino list can tutor for every creature given enough mana, but it isn't a requirement. Strix is another example of the isn't hit by gsz but too strong to pass up kind of creature.Originally Posted by Brael
If TNN, or blue heavy decks are your concern then it is definitely worth considering. The thing I don't like about it is that it can be blocked forever by pyromancer tokens, but not all cards are perfect for all situations.
I'm not sure if the taiga is worth it just for slaughter games, not with Lost Legacy around. 4 Rhino's might also be a lot but that is as much preference as anything else. If you have a dryad arbor I might suggest cutting taiga for it since Arbor makes meren more worthwhile.
If you cut the 4th rhino, Thrun is a nice 4 drop that can push some players to the brink with hexproof and regen.
Slaughter games is mostly because I'm out of cash ATM and I owe those cards. Is +1swamp +1plains good replacement for duals?
Anything about sideboard?
Stretching into more colors, when you don't have the manabase for minimal colors is a recipe for disaster.
First of all: Hi guys, I'm silently following the thread for a while and am currently building a junk list. So really happy to see someone posting a rhino list again.
I agree that the red splash is not necessary for slaughter games only. Guess replacing duals with basics will screw some games. My variant is to invest in shock duals first. So rhino "kind of" reduces the life loss.
Regarding sideboard: I like to be interactive with graveyards from turn 0-1. So faerie macabre/ surgical extraction are my budget/non budget choices. Personally I think 2 golgari charms should be good against a huge part of the meta. Hits strix, TNN, thalia, pyro, goblin tokens.
Thanks guys for the active discussions about this fun deck :)
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It can work, I'd want to have at least a couple Bayou though if possible - Overgrown Tomb can work in a pinch.
I always want a couple of fast graveyard hate in order to combat reanimator/dredge/storm variants/belcher, but that's just me. Faerie Macabres can be the cheapest version of that. Next would be Surgical Extractions. Spellbombs aren't bad though, I could see them being fine in the grindy matches where you want to shut off Snapcaster or Angler - I sometimes see Czech running them, for instance, primarily because they replace themselves.
Edit: agree with @p.faul01 on this. Also I like having at least 5 sweepers in my 75. Typically 3 in main (deeds/deluge) and then 2 more side. A second Golgari Charm could be worth it, that's the cheaper alternative to Deluge.
Best walkers to bring in are going to be combat walkers that can benefit from grindy matchups. Garruk Relentless or Gideon could be better replacements for Elspeth or Vraska, for instance. Although at the moment I've been very fond of Chokes to fight those blue midrangey/4c whatever decks. Choke is a pretty cheap pickup and I think is a good call right now.
Main think about Rhino right now is that it's a dog to Angler. Maybe replace one with Chameleon Colossus if you can? Least then you have an option if the opp has strixes/angler on board.
IMO Lost Legacy is much better than Slaughter Games if you aren't in red to being with. Coming down a turn earlier is HUGE against storm and sneak/show.
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2nd Edit: Adding land + steve to my Helm Fit list seemed to really improve the consistency. 3-2 league last night and have a few other changes in mind. Coming to really love flip Nissa after seeing her in action. Hilarious to have a match against Dredge when you are running mainboard leylines
I love Venser as a SnT target. Problem is I got only so much space for trying to shore up the horrid matchup that is Omni Show. Currently my slot for combo hate is taken by V.Clique
Double blue surprisingly is not a problem and I run MD 2x JTMS. You seem to have an aversion against U cards in general but that is ok (maybe due to some negative experiences you faced when playing U?)
Besides against combo I just go full on fetching duals where 3/5 of them have Island printed on them.
Well, for starters your manabase unfortunately is unstable, which means you'll lose more games to colour screw than you should. I'd recommend more fetchlands, less basics. Also, fetchlands are more important than duals. A 10 fetchland manabase w/ 6 basics and 1 of each (shock)dual works perfectly fine and is relatively budget friendly. You want to fetch basics as much as possible anyway (b/c fuck you, Wasteland).
Your list is also very top heavy and light on library manipulation/CA, which means variance will be more likely to bite you in the ass. Try to run some number of Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library to help with that, if you can.
I don't particularly care for Thrun. His body is too small to be impressive. Perhaps in SFM builds. If you don't run SFM, just go w/ Siege Rhino. I do agree w/ Lost Legacy over Slaughter Games and Dryad Arbor to enable some clever plays.
To further expand on your manabase - what you should try to aim for is to hit 14 initial manasources (meaning lands that can get you mana of a certain colour on T1) for as many colours as you can. Green is an absolute must, others can be at around 12/13 although I prefer to keep those at 14 as well. Since fetchlands can theoretically get you any colour of mana (as long as you run the appropriate (shock)duals), they count as +1 for all colours. This is why it's more important to get your fetchlands before any actual duals. Shockduals are a fine replacement until you can upgrade those. Bayou first (which sucks b/c that one's most spendy), Savannah second, Scrubland last.
As for SBs, I can recommend you mine.
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
It hozes combo, which is easily your worst MU, and individual cards are pretty good in various MUs.
This!
Hopefully above bits on SB and manabases helped you out a bit.
I agree w/ all of this!It can work, I'd want to have at least a couple Bayou though if possible - Overgrown Tomb can work in a pinch.
I always want a couple of fast graveyard hate in order to combat reanimator/dredge/storm variants/belcher, but that's just me. Faerie Macabres can be the cheapest version of that. Next would be Surgical Extractions. Spellbombs aren't bad though, I could see them being fine in the grindy matches where you want to shut off Snapcaster or Angler - I sometimes see Czech running them, for instance, primarily because they replace themselves.
Edit: agree with @p.faul01 on this. Also I like having at least 5 sweepers in my 75. Typically 3 in main (deeds/deluge) and then 2 more side. A second Golgari Charm could be worth it, that's the cheaper alternative to Deluge.
Best walkers to bring in are going to be combat walkers that can benefit from grindy matchups. Garruk Relentless or Gideon could be better replacements for Elspeth or Vraska, for instance. Although at the moment I've been very fond of Chokes to fight those blue midrangey/4c whatever decks. Choke is a pretty cheap pickup and I think is a good call right now.
Main think about Rhino right now is that it's a dog to Angler. Maybe replace one with Chameleon Colossus if you can? Least then you have an option if the opp has strixes/angler on board.
IMO Lost Legacy is much better than Slaughter Games if you aren't in red to being with. Coming down a turn earlier is HUGE against storm and sneak/show.
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2nd Edit: Adding land + steve to my Helm Fit list seemed to really improve the consistency. 3-2 league last night and have a few other changes in mind. Coming to really love flip Nissa after seeing her in action. Hilarious to have a match against Dredge when you are running mainboard leylines
@the new guys. I'd be happy to share my current Junk list with you guys, if you want it. Just let me know.
Last edited by Echelon; 10-12-2017 at 07:23 AM.
Which planeswalkers are now played in Nic Fit mainly? Except LilianaOTVeil. :D
You'll be getting a lot of answers to that question.. :)
Nissa, Vital Force: Most played plainswalker, probably. Provides good clock and board presence, can rebuy things like Deed and the expensive cards or even herself (second copy) and has a great card advantage ultimate that you can reach after 1 turn.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Quite popular in BUG-builds.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer: A ramp card [edit: or well, it doesn't technically ramp you but it fills a similar role] that creates 4/4 tokens and draws cards, sometimes played.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin: Not played that much but seems to be liked because of the potential board presence in blinking creatures and because of the card advantage.
These are the most common ones I can think of right now.
Edit: Maybe some innovation could be done trying these two (probably already commented on, maybe worth reconsidering):
Gideon of the Trials: Like Gaddock he can win g1 vs Storm while also providing relevant board presence. Relevant vs Marit Lage too, if there is a chump blocker around.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance: Protects herself and draws cards, provides win condition too. Maybe she could help make a red, grindy shell more competitive.
Thrun isn't my first choice either, I was going off of what they listed as available quickly at the bottom. I never loved 4 rhinos though. With Stronghold, meren, and gsz it's easy enough to storm off every turn with a rhino at some point with only 3. That just opens up 1 slot as a gsz target for that nic fit tech. In that regard I might recommend qasali pridemage over reclamation sage. Or even just moving Teeg to the main, it does help in a lot of match ups.
I like Kaya in my Junk sideboard when miracles was around. I've been less excited about this card otherwise.
__________________________________
Last night for NicFitTober I took the Dino Shift list posted on page 123 by Arianrhod.
I made a couple of changes, partly because I couldn't get a prime time by Wednesday and partly because I wanted a slightly different feel.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Ripjaw Raptor
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thought Seize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Sheltered Thicket
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths
1 Lost Legacy
1 Slaughter Games
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Kozileks Return
1 Life from the Loam
The main difference is that I have a weaker mana base (lack of duals), and went smaller on the creatures to put in more discard (I might have over compensated for playing Temur the last 2 weeks).
The list worked well and was a lot of fun to play. It went 3-1 losing to Maverick, and then beating dredge, pox, and D&T.
Maverick was a bit of a bad break, I had 6 lands, and burning wish. So I wished for a scapeshift hoping to draw 1 more land and kill them next turn. I should have just held wish because I drew my 2 scapeshifts back to back after that. I was under pressure in game 2 and that was the wrong line. I don't remember g1 too well but it involved trading a lot of resources back and forth where I ended up librarying worse than they did.
Dredge was fine. Maindeck scooze and drs is a problem, post board spellbombs and surgicals are a house.
Pox was sweet, really grindy, took time to really have to think about plays. But Regisaur protecting itself off of edicts, e wit providing another 2 for 1, and sylvan library helped me grind out in game 3.
D&T he scooped t go to time, but I've played this match up before. Dino's can run over taxes which is nice, and valakut helps close out mom's or thalia's or just something wearing a sword. Not a given by any stretch of the imagination but I'll put us starting at a 55/45 preferred.
All in all, I only got to scapeshift kill once. I have not played a lot with the deck, but I felt it would have come up more often (maybe I just need prime time for that to happen). Dino's felt great. I did find myself aware of carnage tyrant would have closed some positions more easily than ripjaw raptor but raptor was in a draft of mine while carnage was not *Kanye shrug*.
I did find myself scapeshifting for more Courser and Tracker triggers though. I guess the take away for me was that a strong board state is almost as good as a combo kill.
@pettdan answered well. Nissa, VF is probably the most popular right now. Does everything you want in pretty much every matchup. Haste-kill Jace, quick damage against combo / recur disruption pieces when applicable, card draw in grindy games. I've been running a couple lists that have 2 and she is bonkers.
I've been more and more impressed by Nissa Vastwood Seer the more I play her now that I'm getting back into non-Nyx builds.
Garruk Relentless became a lot better after the walker change - you can play multiple a lot more easily since you can have both sides out at the same time. Shoot down a deathrite, start making 1/1's and you can play a second copy. He was the sort of go-to combat walker when needing one against Miracles. Junk has access to Gideon now which is a pretty similar role. Ditto with small Elspeth.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is probably the best 6-drop if you are in white.
I've got a BUG walker fit list somewhere with both Jace TMS and Nissa, Steward of Elements. Really want to try those together since you can Brainstorm with Jace to setup a creature on top and then get it into play for free (and uncounterably) with Nissa.
Liliana, the Last Hope definitely fine in an elves or D&T-heavy meta. I've not tried her extensively for general use. Compliments a recursive, graveyard focused deck such as one with Meren / Loam shenanigans / Intuition / Recurring Nightmare.
Or just play them all.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Collective Brutality
1 Gideon of the Trials
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Lili Veil isn't very good for us to be honest. We have a high individual card power so discarding hurts us, and we don't have cards we can recur from the yard to fuel her - Loam doesn't work well for us because of Explorer's anti-synergy with Wasteland, and Punishing Fire is pretty bad right now because of Leovold.
I'd say the best walker for us right now is Nissa, Vastwood Seer. Mainly because she is zenithable. 4/4 tokens aren't bad right now, and she straight up wrecks control decks. Nissa, Vital Force is solid too, but you can only afford to dedicate so many slots to 5+ mana cards that doesn't do anything to a combo deck.
Blue: JTMS is the clear standout. As far as things to be using bonus mana on turn 2-4 on, he's definitely up there. He isn't as good a win condition for us as he is for other decks (because we can't reliably protect him on the stack) but he's a good source of cards advantage for flooding the board in threats.
White: Kaya is great, mainly because like Jace she isn't completely dead against combo decks. Gideon Trials may be similar but probably needs more testing, and WW is a disadvantage. If you want a sideboard game winner vs control decks, Elspeth Sun's Champion is solid.
Red: Chandra, ToD is probably your best option in a fair deck. In Sneak, exiling your only Emrakul is pretty awful, so take care. Might still be the best choice though.
@Leshrac82, are you still playing the NicPost list? If so, do you have any news about it?
I've been lurking this thread way too long seeking for a post of you
Although I'm in love with the deck, I'am really having a hard time playing with it correctly. Would you mind also giving me some enlightenment on how should I mulligan?
I doubt it's not a problem, more likely you're just not noticing it. And I have no aversion to blue cards, there's a lot of fun, powerful, and cool blue cards in the format. I just don't think it's a strong color in Nic Fit (and I started playing this deck, by playing BUG). Most of the good blue cards require too much of a commitment to blue, and when blue can only be your tertiary color due to Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy demanding a higher priority for your green/black mana, it makes most double blue cards difficult. It's not just blue where I have this criticism, I feel the same way about Palace Jailer and Sigarda in white.
The number one priority for a card is that you can cast it when you want to cast it. You can't always do that with double blue spells, and as a result it hurts consistency.
agreed. I also prefer to stay with the rhino plan.
cool sideboard. Also very budget friendly from my point of view. I am still a bit hesitant about buying thoughtseizes. But seems like duress is reasonable enough :)
for me, they did! thanks!
oh yes, I'd love to see your list. I will attach my current list aswell. Some card choices from my side: I added a lot of lifegain to compensate the shock duals, but some can probably be replaced with something else. I tried Kaya and am really fighting to keep her in the rhino shell. I think all of her abilities are good in the surrounding of 4 rhinos. I just recently exchanged Nissa VF in the main with 1 crop rotation. Didn't have time to test it, but I had the weird situation that I always blew up my own 5/5 lands with deeds.. That is really counterproductive to the deck plan. Someone else had issues with that?
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Crop Rotation
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate
1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
3 Lost Legacy
2 Golgari Charm
3 Duress
2 Faerie Macabre
I would consider a Murmuring Bosk over Swamp #2.
Also, I think I would play a second Thragtusk over the first Courser. You need a lot of redraws to make Courser good these days.
Hi everyone, hope I'm not causing a disturbance, but I just purchased some cards to be able to play the core of this deck (Explorer/GSZ/Therapy.) If its ok I'd like to ask a few (basic) questions about the deck. I have read the primer mostly through, but the deck has been a round a while and I know its in flux due to Top being banned.
1) How many basics do you typically run? I would think 5-6 would be a good starting point but I've seen up to 7. As I'm new to Nic Fit I'm sure there is an optimal number.
2) Has anyone stayed to strictly only b/g colors or is there always a splash? I know there is an established BUG list, and I see folks have been splashing white in recent comments, and historically red for Grove/Fires.
3) Deathrite Shaman seems less important in this deck than other bgx decks...is 2-3 ok or should there be 4?
4) How important is Pernicious Deed? I have 3, and I love the card, and the concept of big mana into Deed hits me in the feels.
5) Why don't more people play this? Just in testing I have seen 5 lands on turn 3 fairly consistently if I have Explorer/sac outlet available.
Thanks in advance, and sorry if I disturbed your thread with seemingly obvious questions.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
4 Oath of Nissa and not a single Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker to be found? Seems like something can be dropped for the last inclusion, maybe this is just me unreasonably wanting to slam down Nicol Bolas.
Hiya @Mr. Safety
7 is a pretty standard number. Very usual to see 3 Forest, 2 Swamp, 2 of the other color basics. Being able to cast everything with only basics can be nice.1) How many basics do you typically run? I would think 5-6 would be a good starting point but I've seen up to 7. As I'm new to Nic Fit I'm sure there is an optimal number.
The main argument is that splashing gives you access to powerful cards with little cost. White provides removal (swords/path) and some better hate cards, red provides some different engines, blue provides different selection tools. Good way to think of nic fit is basically Vet/Therapy/(GSZ) core with various packages. I've seen walkers, stoneforge-equipment, adademy rector, pfire, burning wish, sneak attack, scapeshift...there's a lot you can assemble around that core.2) Has anyone stayed to strictly only b/g colors or is there always a splash? I know there is an established BUG list, and I see folks have been splashing white in recent comments, and historically red for Grove/Fires.
You can look a few pages back to see some b/g decks that are lower to the ground with Dark Confidant and Crop Rotation, some of those look more like Deadguy Ale + Vet decks. Bob + Tireless Tracker can do a lot to stay nimble and make up for any disadvantage. I've been experimenting with Helm fit, using maindeck Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience combo and it is currently B/G. You do gain access to potentially run Hymns with b/g. More consistent mana, but that has more to do with overall curve and card selection choices.
Yes, he's less important. If your version focuses on getting to 3-4 mana asap, then he could be used - I ran 1-2 in Sneak Fit...but Sakura-Tribe Elder does a great job as well. Personally I do like having 3-4 Deathrites in BUG fit but that is a very different styled deck and is lower cmc, uses deed more as an emergency valve. I've been on 0 deathrite versions of Junk and Jund and B/G and been very fine without him.3) Deathrite Shaman seems less important in this deck than other bgx decks...is 2-3 ok or should there be 4?
3 is all you need. Very typical to see 3 Deed maindeck, and then 2ish other sweepers in the side, like 2 Deluges. Sometimes 2 Deed 1 Deluge main feels better depending on what you are running. I'm in love with multiple Trackers and so I like a deluge to help avoid losing clues. Same could be said for SFM equipment lists.4) How important is Pernicious Deed? I have 3, and I love the card, and the concept of big mana into Deed hits me in the feels.
Deck has a lot of bad stigma. Attracts casuals who don't understand the finer points of deck construction (and the lack of established lists hurts them there). People tend to play it for fun, or advertise it in passing - I'm not familiar with any long-term veterans who post regular content or stream. (Stryfo is an exception on twitch, though he mostly plays punishing thieves - he is a very good brewer and does fairly well with some of his BUG and other nic fit lists). Deck's strength relies very highly on making good use of Cabal Therapy - it's a world of difference in effectiveness between an amateur vs someone who can consistently hit in the blind. Deck in general has consistency issues since it is a ramp deck - GSZ does not always adequately bridge the gap and your beasties will sometimes show up in hand too early...we (typically) don't have Brainstorm/Ponder to cheaply fix hand issues. 5 lands in play is great, until you topdeck 3 more while dying to a flipped Delver.5) Why don't more people play this? Just in testing I have seen 5 lands on turn 3 fairly consistently if I have Explorer/sac outlet available.
Other than that, deck can be a blast to play and will usually eat up delver and fair decks without much problem. Heck, just hitting with Therapy feels great, and is the main reason I switched to nic fit. Combo is going to be more of a struggle, and we do not like blue control rising back into dominance. I enjoy the "unsolved" mystery that is nic fit and there is more room to explore here than other archetypes have available.
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